What would you do if you 'knew'?, page 3

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reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:04 PM by Fractured.Facade

reply to post by Mouldilocks

Regardless, you have a choice, and have to make one.

At least it is only two choices.... Neither are easy.

The very presence of the dilemmas suggests that you do not know which choice you will make... So we are back where we started here.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:07 PM by muzzleflash

reply to post by sonofliberty1776

Just because I answered "No I won't kill him" doesn't mean I didn't read the OP.

Why is murder the only answer?

It was a question, I answered no. That is my final answer and it will always stand.

I am a diplomat, not an assassin.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:10 PM by muzzleflash

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
reply to post by muzzleflash

This particular man is not, nor will be a "tyrant" ... He will remain unknown... Maybe you just read the Hitler question and skipped the rest??

Anyone who uses violence to achieve their goals is a tyrant by definition.

Even the assassin of a tyrant. Please think about this.

You cannot be in favor of Liberty while you kill human beings over "He's gonna do it". It's freaking pre-crime for crying out loud. His disease might be a dud. We don't know any of this.
It's impossible to know before it happens.

You cannot pigeonhole me into saying "Yes I'll gut him good" or whatever.

I see what the point of this is and I am defeating that point.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:13 PM by muzzleflash

reply to post by Open2Truth

It's essentially a justification for pre-crime executions.

Something I find highly deplorable.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:14 PM by Fractured.Facade

Originally posted by muzzleflash

I see what the point of this is and I am defeating that point.

You could be hardening the resolve here as well.

Again, how do you reconcile inaction, in this case, as outlined in the OP, when it comes to pass, as seen and known and you did nothing?

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:16 PM by muzzleflash

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade

Originally posted by muzzleflash

I see what the point of this is and I am defeating that point.

You could be hardening the resolve here as well.

Again, how do you reconcile inaction, in this case, as outlined in the OP, when it comes to pass, as seen and known and you did nothing?

It is not my place to choose your fate.

It is my place to choose my fate.

And my principals are rock-solid. Unbreakable.

I did do something, I refused to become that which I despise.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:19 PM by Fractured.Facade

Originally posted by muzzleflash

I did do something, I refused to become that which I despise.

Which, in the scenario given you in the OP, is what exactly?... Please, elaborate.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:20 PM by Raelsatu

reply to post by muzzleflash

Sorry not buying into your strange notions of morality. You're just as easy to manipulate by emotion as anyone else, the question is what's the threshold.

I have a few questions.

First, you say what's the point of killing a tyrant/unknown mass-murderer, if a new one will simply appear with time? Well, if a serial rapist/murderer burst into your home at night to slaughter your family, where does your logic/morality sit? Don't shoot & kill him because another serial killer will simply pop up again one day?

If a man/women was holding a remote device that would detonate a WMD in 1 minute, within the vicinity of your home, which would in effect kill everyone you know and love; but you had the option to press a button which would stop his heart --- would you? Be honest with yourself.

There's no way you're telling me the life of 1 crazed individual is worth more than that of millions of others. If you're taking a religious approach on this, you're kidding yourself. The Bible sanctions the stoning of anyone who breaks a commandment, and God himself not only personally mass murdered but ordered it.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:24 PM by Mouldilocks

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
reply to post by Mouldilocks

The very presence of the dilemmas suggests that you do not know which choice you will make... So we are back where we started here.

Is there a difference between what your heart/soul and what your brain/mind tell you?

I think so. With our brain/mind we are confronting a problem with logic/rationale/education/indoctrination....whatever happens to occupy it. With our heart/soul we confront a problem with feelings/emotion/experience/perception.

If the solution presented by each is not in harmony or agreement with the other, they present a duality which then forces us into weighing up the pros and cons. The duality produced within us is the definition of good and evil per the situation, which makes it a moral dilemma.

Take away the good and evil and look at the theoretical facts (those words DO NOT belong side by side!).

What do you consider the facts of each outcome to be?

All the questions raised in the theoretical situation could be answered if we knew what the meaning of life is...if there is a meaning of life...

edit on 17-9-2011 by Mouldilocks because: clariteeee

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:27 PM by SunShineKid

Originally posted by EmilNomel
reply to post by Fractured.Facade

this is a moral dilemma that's incredibly hard to decide...
whatever you decide to do or not to do in the end: may your God have mercy on your soul!

here's a few examples of moral dilemmas in a very short video:

YouTube Link

namaste.

There is alway another way around those decisions!

For example: In the 1st scenario of that video, Bob had a 3rd option... stop the train, get out of the train and free all of the 6 people who were stuck!
As an old "friend" used to say: "There is more than one way to skin a cat."

Same goes for the rest of the scenarios... including the OP scenario!
You will always find a 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. option if you look deep enough to find them!

Search for the answer(s) into your heart... and follow the light as it brakes up in your heart!!

Let Love rule your heart and soul

Sun'Shine.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:33 PM by WhiteHat

Let's put it this way:

If he develops his mass murder weapon, will you die too? your family?
If the answer is yes, then you could use your life, which will end anyway in 7 years, to save all the other people.
If you won't die in this event,....damn, that's even worse. You will have to live with all those people deaths on your conscience. Are you up to it? Then do nothing.
The question is what is the hardest thing for you: to pay for changing the future, or to live with the guilt of not changing it.

It's maybe one of the hardest dilemma a person can face. I don't know what I would do.Maybe trying to determine one single thing essential for that weapon, and destroy it? Maybe trying to disable somehow that person?
I think that if I would know FOR SURE, I will probably kill him.
But this is just hypothetical speculations, who knows what I would do if that would be my life?
Whatever you do, my friend, I wish you strength and peace.

Can you at least give us a warning, or a way to protect ourselves from that virus? A time frame, a location? Something that could help us? Please....

edit on 17-9-2011 by WhiteHat because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:37 PM by muzzleflash

reply to post by Raelsatu

Since it's a hypothetical situation and you can set the playing field any way you want to force me into killing someone, than I will throw in my own fantastic solutions.

To prevent the detonator from going off I will use a small EMP device to short it. Therefore no one dies.

To prevent the rapist murderer from killing my kids, I will throw an object and dislodge the weapon from his hand, and catch him in a net. Again no deaths.

To defeat the super-disease I will merely spread my super-cure.

If you can invent hypothetical scenarios, than I can invent them too.
Loaded questions are not going to dissuade me from my convictions.

This has nothing to do with an emotional response. This has to do with being logically consistent. In fact, I believe my response is totally unemotional and is entirely philosophically based.

Those who automatically jump to the conclusion to murder the guy for pre-crime, are the emotional responses. Their response is determined by emotions like fear, not in logic or rationality.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:42 PM by Fractured.Facade

Originally posted by Mouldilocks

Take away the good and evil and look at the theoretical facts (those words DO NOT belong side by side!).

What do you consider the facts of each outcome to be?

Simplified... Doing nothing will mean that millions will get sick and die, and this man will have created the virus that will kill them.... Is waiting it out to see if it happens (when you know it will) an option?

If you do nothing within this 72 hour period, and choose to try to warn people, the authorities anyone, everyone it will have no effect on that outcome and will make you a target, you will lose either way. You will never have this opportunity again after this (now less than three days) time window passes.

If you choose to take him out within this 72 hour period, it will go down as a random act of violence, from an insane person who was killed by security at the site where this man will be in that time period. There is only one way to do it, and it must be quick... Only one opportunity.

The meaning of life?

Who knows??

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:44 PM by Raelsatu

reply to post by WhiteHat

Good post, and I just realized that death isn't the only option for the future mass-murderer. If you'd rather not live with the "blood on your conscience", even though it was necessary to save a good portion of humanity, you could do a few things.

1: Knock out the guy with anesthesia, tie him up, and relocate him to a remote island or place he'd have to spend the rest of his life (isolated from society with no technology).

2. Knock out the guy with anesthesia, and then use one of multiple procedures to paralyze him for life.

3. Place the guy in a situation where he's force to fight for his life, but chances of living are nill.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:50 PM by Fractured.Facade

reply to post by Raelsatu

This man works in a government/military position now, abducting him is not an option here. This opportunity exists as is for less than three days... You will only have one clear shot at it.

Putting him to sleep and removing him is simply impossible.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:56 PM by Mouldilocks

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade

Simplified... Doing nothing will mean that millions will get sick and die, and this man will have created the virus that will kill them.... Is waiting it out to see if it happens (when you know it will) an option?

You tell us. Is waiting it out an option? Are there options other than killing the 'bad guy' that would prevent people suffering and/or dying? Could this person be shown/told/provided with proof to confirm the outcome of their deeds? And if they could be shown, would it stop them from going ahead anyway?

How do we know our perception of what we consider reality is the same as everyone elses, and that we aren't, as the majority may see it, psychotic, or in some other way out of touch with reality? Isn't reality, and therefore opinion, subjective?

Anders Behring Breivik thought he was doing something for the good of others. Many - the majority - would disagree.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:58 PM by Raelsatu

Originally posted by muzzleflash
reply to post by Raelsatu

Since it's a hypothetical situation and you can set the playing field any way you want to force me into killing someone, than I will throw in my own fantastic solutions.

To prevent the detonator from going off I will use a small EMP device to short it. Therefore no one dies.

To prevent the rapist murderer from killing my kids, I will throw an object and dislodge the weapon from his hand, and catch him in a net. Again no deaths.

To defeat the super-disease I will merely spread my super-cure.

You've just maneuvered around my hypothetical with fantastical ideas.

The average person doesn't have any knowledge of EMPs, or how to assemble them, let alone in 1 MINUTE. Not to mention you don't have any idea where the WMD is located in order to disarm it.

You're telling me if a guy with a knife or gun was about to rape your kids, or already had; and you had a gun, you'd throw something at him?? 99.9 percent of logical, emotional human beings would shoot the intruder without thinking twice.

I didn't say anything about a super disease, but your hypothetical response is still illogical. There are no super-cures, and if there are then you're certainly not the one inventing them. It's far easier to deal destruction than it is to repair. And there are no fantasy fixes to these types of situations.

Those who automatically jump to the conclusion to murder the guy for pre-crime, are the emotional responses. Their response is determined by emotions like fear, not in logic or rationality.

You're joking right? You're actually saying it's illogical to kill the person who's about to wipe out millions of other people? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life; but probably something a robot would say.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 09:02 PM by EmilNomel

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade

Originally posted by Mouldilocks

Take away the good and evil and look at the theoretical facts (those words DO NOT belong side by side!).

What do you consider the facts of each outcome to be?

Simplified... Doing nothing will mean that millions will get sick and die, and this man will have created the virus that will kill them.... Is waiting it out to see if it happens (when you know it will) an option?

If you do nothing within this 72 hour period, and choose to try to warn people, the authorities anyone, everyone it will have no effect on that outcome and will make you a target, you will lose either way. You will never have this opportunity again after this (now less than three days) time window passes.

If you choose to take him out within this 72 hour period, it will go down as a random act of violence, from an insane person who was killed by security at the site where this man will be in that time period. There is only one way to do it, and it must be quick... Only one opportunity.

The meaning of life?

Who knows??

thanks to sunshine's reply, i now see that there are more options out here...

if you had these psychic abilities in the 1st place to foresee his intentions... then use your abilities to sabotage his brain and talk him out of his ideas!

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 09:03 PM by Fractured.Facade

Originally posted by Mouldilocks

You tell us. Is waiting it out an option? Are there options other than killing the 'bad guy' that would prevent people suffering and/or dying? Could this person be shown/told/provided with proof to confirm the outcome of their deeds? And if they could be shown, would it stop them from going ahead anyway?

You could try that in this case, but it would quickly fail, as this man is already in a position of power, and can have you eliminated with ease.

This individual has no conscience, no empathy, he will not be moved.. But you could always try.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 09:06 PM by ShadowOblivionX

if i knew that by killing one man i would save thousands or possibly millions yes i would kill him.