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On growing up to be, as God says, one of us.

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posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 01:56 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by racasan
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Ok let’s try this again


Are you one of those christians who thinks Jesus is god?

If so then who was god making his sacrifice to?


And
why would a loving god need something sacrificed at all, does it give him mana points?


Yeah, i am one of these christians who believes Jesus is God.
To understand the nature of Christ, you must understand where he came from. He was Yahweh and he wasnt making the sacrifice to anything. He was sacrificing his life, to save our souls. Just because you sacrifice yourself doesn't mean you are doing it for any particular reason other than to save those you love. Jesus was God but he put down his godhood for 33 years, when he died on the cross he reclaimed his godhood and went into hell and took the keys of death and hell from Satan.

For instance, if a bus was driving too fast down the road and i saw my 3 year old son about to be hit, i would dive in front of the bus and push him out of harms way. I would die, so that my son could live its the same principle. I'm not doing it for any other reason, i'm doing to protect my child so that he could live when he would have died. Its hard to understand if youre not a parent, but any parent thats worth their salt would choose to sacrifice themselves so that their children would live.


If your son was in danger – it’s because of the nature of the universe we live in – the physics of the mass and velocity of the bus and that a biological creature (your son) couldn’t survive the impact of that bus – so you would use your mass to push him out of danger but take the impact yourself is all part of the universe we live in

Another way of looking at this is you are a player in a game and would have (in saving your son) used the rules of that game to save him

But if you say Jesus is god then he is the person who made the rules of the game

If he makes the game in such a way that he has to sacrifice himself to save the other players from suffering in another part of the game he has made (hell) then that’s all his choice – and we - other players can only watch these antics and wonder what’s wrong with him



Let me ask a slightly different question

If you are a computer programmer and you make a program which when you first run it turns out to have bugs

Would you
a) let the program run and learn to work around the bugs
b) stop the program and fix the bugs
c) blame the program for having bugs and then find a way to torture copy's of the program forever and ever as as a warning to other copy's of the program and if that doesn’t fix it, as a last resort have yourself nailed to some wood

and
Which of the above options is the most similar to the one Jesus Picked?

edit on 21-9-2011 by racasan because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-9-2011 by racasan because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 08:43 AM
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Originally posted by racasan

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by racasan
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Ok let’s try this again


Are you one of those christians who thinks Jesus is god?

If so then who was god making his sacrifice to?


And
why would a loving god need something sacrificed at all, does it give him mana points?


Yeah, i am one of these christians who believes Jesus is God.
To understand the nature of Christ, you must understand where he came from. He was Yahweh and he wasnt making the sacrifice to anything. He was sacrificing his life, to save our souls. Just because you sacrifice yourself doesn't mean you are doing it for any particular reason other than to save those you love. Jesus was God but he put down his godhood for 33 years, when he died on the cross he reclaimed his godhood and went into hell and took the keys of death and hell from Satan.

For instance, if a bus was driving too fast down the road and i saw my 3 year old son about to be hit, i would dive in front of the bus and push him out of harms way. I would die, so that my son could live its the same principle. I'm not doing it for any other reason, i'm doing to protect my child so that he could live when he would have died. Its hard to understand if youre not a parent, but any parent thats worth their salt would choose to sacrifice themselves so that their children would live.


If your son was in danger – it’s because of the nature of the universe we live in – the physics of the mass and velocity of the bus and that a biological creature (your son) couldn’t survive the impact of that bus – so you would use your mass to push him out of danger but take the impact yourself is all part of the universe we live in

Another way of looking at this is you are a player in a game and would have (in saving your son) used the rules of that game to save him

But if you say Jesus is god then he is the person who made the rules of the game

If he makes the game in such a way that he has to sacrifice himself to save the other players from suffering in another part of the game he has made (hell) then that’s all his choice – and we - other players can only watch these antics and wonder what’s wrong with him



Let me ask a slightly different question

If you are a computer programmer and you make a program which when you first run it turns out to have bugs

Would you
a) let the program run and learn to work around the bugs
b) stop the program and fix the bugs
c) blame the program for having bugs and then find a way to torture copy's of the program forever and ever as as a warning to other copy's of the program and if that doesn’t fix it, as a last resort have yourself nailed to some wood

and
Which of the above options is the most similar to the one Jesus Picked?

edit on 21-9-2011 by racasan because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-9-2011 by racasan because: (no reason given)


Well, youre trying to describe the Lord using human terms, but what youre forgetting is that the rules for us do not apply to HIM. He tested Man and Woman and they both failed and the price for that failure was corruption and death. But the nature of Yahweh is that he didn't want to see his companions perish, so he inacted a plan to save His friends. Man was created to be God's friend. The angels had been created to love God and serve and worship him, but he wanted real friends that would love Him of their own free wills and choose to obey Him.

He has done option C. The program has stopped and he is working on fixing it, but that work will not be completed until the end of Tribulation. It is then that the "corrupted files" will be destroyed and his program will resume as it was intended when it first began. Satan was the corrupting "file" that threw the whole program out of sync so it ended up spamming mass "errors". The work to restore the program began when Jesus died on the cross, and it's been continuing to work for 2000 years. You don't fix a buggy computer game overnight, it takes time.



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 11:24 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


You wrote:

["Well, youre trying to describe the Lord using human terms, but what youre forgetting is that the rules for us do not apply to HIM."]

Neither are there any relevant or valid rules concerning an imaginary teapot on Saturn or the flying spaghetti monster, which consequently and according to your (lack of) logic are equally 'authentic'.

So the growing-up options now also include becoming a teapotarian or a pastafarian.



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 12:27 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 

. . .It is then that the "corrupted files" will be destroyed and his program will resume as it was intended when it first began.
So the YHVH solution is kill everyone? Nice one!



posted on Sep, 22 2011 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by Raelsatu
I can sympathize more with John Shelbys concept of God and the afterlife than with most Christians. He worded it perfectly, to think that God can be bound by the words of man in any book, is beyond understanding. It's actually quite arrogant and naive. If God exist and really loves us 'lesser' conscious beings, he wouldn't judge the individual for using their brain to guide them down whatever path of spirituality decided. Hell is a human concept meant to be a control mechanism and fear trip, especially when used on children.

Naturally some mainstream Christians will now proceed to say this preacher is actually a took of the devil, inspired by Satan to deceive and mislead us from the "real" truth.


I am sure that he gets a lot of hate mail from those who are supposed to love their neighbors.
Most who promote a loving attitude do from those who love to hate.

Regards
DL



posted on Sep, 22 2011 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by akushla99
Excellent!

Akushla


Thanks.

Regards
DL



posted on Sep, 22 2011 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Um, no. We are not all sons of God. Jesus would even tell you that if you do not believe in him and do his works that you are not fit for his kingdom. There is no sitting on the fence with the Lord, you are either hot for him or cold and against him, there is no in between because he will spit them out as if he never knew them.

In fact Jesus gave a parable to illustrate this. He said that if you are the child of Abraham and you do your fathers will then you do the will of Satan, because Abraham was just a man, but if you do the will of God then you are one of his children because you do his will (paraphrased).


www.youtube.com...

Psalm 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Note the plural of Gods.

John 10
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Regards
DL



posted on Sep, 22 2011 @ 12:27 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

E·lo·him takes His place among the e·lo·him, in the council of El.


edit on 22-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 22 2011 @ 05:07 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Gods means "elohim" in hebrew and it refers to the angels not to actual "gods". There is only one God, and Yahweh (YHWH) is his name for He is the Lord, He is the Almighty also known to the hebrew as El Sheddai.



posted on Sep, 22 2011 @ 05:23 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Gods means "elohim" in hebrew and it refers to the angels not to actual "gods". There is only one God, and Yahweh (YHWH) is his name for He is the Lord, He is the Almighty also known to the hebrew as El Sheddai.
So, then according to your rule of translation, In the beginning, the angels created heaven and earth.



posted on Sep, 22 2011 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
[
Dunno what God youre referring to. My God loves his children and those who are not. I don't recall Jesus Christ telling his disciples to go butcher people for fun. My God came to earth in the flesh to save all of mankind, his love was that great. My God is about forgiveness and love, and being at peace with others.

.


His forgiveness comes at the price of his setting the conditions and having an innocent son murdered and letting the guilty walk. Some justice that. that is your God causing and being guilty of murder my friend.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL


God didn't let his "son" be murdered. Jesus Christ was God in the flesh. What part of that do you fail to understand? Jesus IS Yahweh. Jesus is the Lord, Yahweh is the Lord, the two are synonimous because they are the same being.

God sacrificed his human vessel to give us salvation. What power do you think it was that raised Christ from the dead? Have you ever seen a man resurrect his own body? You won't because it is impossible, only God could bring his vessel back. God didn't murder anyone that was Man that crucified Him and it had to be done to provide a sin sacrifice that would cover all of humanity should they choose to accept Him for all time.
edit on 20-9-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)


But, here's the rub:

God/Jesus didn't actually "sacrifice" anything. To sacrifice something, you have to actually lose something, give up something forever, something you can never get back. Jesus didn't do that. He knew in advance that he was going to come back to life, so compared to you or me who would die for someone we love, Jesus wasn't taking much of a risk.

Furthermore, he wasn't even gone for more than three days. Not much sacrifice there either. Did anyone miss him? That's nothing more than a long weekend, a mini-vacation. It might have meant something if he had been gone for 50 years or so. THAT would have been a real miracle. And, to and "everlasting" god, three days would be like a millisecond -- in other words, no big deal.

Thirdly, if Jesus had died and his death had been permanent, then it would have been a true sacrifice. (And someone would have had something to feel guilty about.) But he made himself come back to life apparently. And if that's the case, this is nothing more than a fancy magic trick, and has all the indicators of an elaborate hoax.



posted on Sep, 22 2011 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by DoctorHouseMD
 

To sacrifice something, you have to actually lose something, give up something forever, something you can never get back. Jesus didn't do that.
Jesus emptied himself of what made him god, to become a man so as to be able to die. He was resurrected as the example of what we will be resurrected as, so for eternity, Jesus will be one of us, never returning to be a god, so he did sacrifice something of infinite value.



posted on Sep, 22 2011 @ 07:24 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by DoctorHouseMD
 

To sacrifice something, you have to actually lose something, give up something forever, something you can never get back. Jesus didn't do that.
Jesus emptied himself of what made him god, to become a man so as to be able to die. He was resurrected as the example of what we will be resurrected as, so for eternity, Jesus will be one of us, never returning to be a god, so he did sacrifice something of infinite value.


Very poor cop-out. If he is "forever one of us, never returning to be a god" as you say, then he did not "return to his father" and did not re-unite with his godly self, as the Bible claims. One of you is wrong. I'm guessing you.

The point is, Yahweh/Jesus, being all powerful, could have done this "sacrifice" literally millions of times in millions of places over and over again, if he really is all powerful. It would have been simple for a powerful god to do and certainly wouldn't have involved any real pain on his part. Surely, he could plop his spirit into any person at any time and "experience" what it's like to be a man, and he could die a million deaths. Again, for a powerful god -- no big deal. Yet, he makes this one event look like a big deal to stupid humans when just a little bit of thought reveals that it was really nothing. No big sacrifice was made -- unless God is a weak and limited being..... Ah, now we're getting somewhere!



posted on Sep, 22 2011 @ 07:51 PM
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reply to post by DoctorHouseMD
 

If he is "forever one of us, never returning to be a god" as you say, then he did not "return to his father" and did not re-unite with his godly self, as the Bible claims. One of you is wrong. I'm guessing you.
That's if you believe in a sort of unified God and one where there is no distinction between the person who was Jesus, and the one who he called his father and god.
I don't think of Jesus' god as being so much a person, and so, the reason why there would be the son, as the person who was the sole direct representative of the ultimate god.
Not only did Jesus sacrifice his previous status, but god sacrificed his son, so there was a gift to mankind from both, the father and the son.
I don't know what Bible verse you are referring to. Paul mentions there being after all the universe is set right and evil eliminated, a coming about of an all-in-all, which I take to mean that there will no longer need to be such a distance between god and the universe.
edit on 22-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 22 2011 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by DoctorHouseMD
 

If he is "forever one of us, never returning to be a god" as you say, then he did not "return to his father" and did not re-unite with his godly self, as the Bible claims. One of you is wrong. I'm guessing you.
That's if you believe in a sort of unified God and one where there is no distinction between the person who was Jesus, and the one who he called his father and god.
I don't think of Jesus' god as being so much a person, and so, the reason why there would be the son, as the person who was the sole direct representative of the ultimate god.
Not only did Jesus sacrifice his previous status, but god sacrificed his son, so there was a gift to mankind from both, the father and the son.
I don't know what Bible verse you are referring to. Paul mentions there being after all the universe is set right and evil eliminated, a coming about of an all-in-all, which I take to mean that there will no longer need to be such a distance between god and the universe.
edit on 22-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


But that's side-stepping the point. You are saying that God and the Son are separate. Okay, fine. Let's go that route. But the "Son" was born a man, so he wasn't really missing anything was he? No regrets about formerly being a God. And no regrets about dying either. He was well aware that he would be brought back to life, and rather quickly too. Still no sacrifice there. No matter how you spin it, there really wasn't anything lost or given up on any level. I guess he lost a few days of consciousness, but people in comas miss out on a lot more. The bottom line, if other mortal humans can sacrifice much more than the god they worship, the god they worship isn't God.



posted on Sep, 22 2011 @ 08:24 PM
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reply to post by DoctorHouseMD
 

No regrets about formerly being a God.
You are making an assumption, and only based on his being a man. Being a man was a necessary transition to go through in order to die, which is not possible if he remained god. The fact that he may or may not have been completely aware of his loss at that moment does not take away from the loss he would be completely aware of for eternity.



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am
 

E·lo·him takes His place among the e·lo·him, in the council of El.


edit on 22-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


I do not use those names but yep. If I understand it right.

Regards
DL



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Gods means "elohim" in hebrew and it refers to the angels not to actual "gods". There is only one God, and Yahweh (YHWH) is his name for He is the Lord, He is the Almighty also known to the hebrew as El Sheddai.


It makes little difference since the Jews do not read their scriptures literally.
Only foolish children do.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by DoctorHouseMD
 

To sacrifice something, you have to actually lose something, give up something forever, something you can never get back. Jesus didn't do that.
Jesus emptied himself of what made him god, to become a man so as to be able to die. He was resurrected as the example of what we will be resurrected as, so for eternity, Jesus will be one of us, never returning to be a god, so he did sacrifice something of infinite value.


Do you really think that a Jesus or God would give man such a piss poor example of what God would think is justice? And go completely against scripture?

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Note what it says of the ransom you say God took in.

Regards
DL



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 03:40 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


That' why you have to have someone of the god status die to break the blood oath of the former god, to kill all mankind.
The redemption was from that oath, but from the god perspective. Free of that oath to kill us all, we can live in such a way as to show us worthy of that redemption, then there is just straight-out forgiveness.



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