Occupy Wall Street Has Begun!

reply to post by seachange


Get out of here with those propaganda lies.

The mortgage crisis was created by bundling risky loans and selling them as solid investments. It is called fraud, and the crooks who did this should be going to jail for their crimes.

Sadly, our corrupt judiciary is doing everything in their power to prevent justice.

The system has stopped working, time to shut it down. No more money for the police state.

Originally posted by Imogene72
reply to post by constantwonder

 

In Greece, we made up this quote: "No to capitalism, no to communism. No Right, nor left. The only thing that trully matters is Humanitarism".

Think about it.

Unfortunately humanitarianism isn't going to get your face on the cover of Forbes. The truth most commonly falls on deaf ears.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by seachange

 

Get out of here with those propaganda lies.

The mortgage crisis was created by bundling risky loans and selling them as solid investments. It is called fraud, and the crooks who did this should be going to jail for their crimes.

Sadly, our corrupt judiciary is doing everything in their power to prevent justice.

The system has stopped working, time to shut it down. No more money for the police state.

What propaganda lines? You have religiously strong beliefs about how wonderful our government can be "if we just pull the strings right" and I'm shattering them with facts. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the government isn't here to help you.

The protesters are not better than George Bush Jr. invading Iraq. So, you go into Iraq to kick out the bad people, and then what? Oh, we'll figure that out later. Then there are people like you. You waltz into Wall Street, take over, and then what? Oh, you'll figure it out later. You're just another George Bush Jr just like the protesters out there on Wall Street.

The Wall Steet protesters have found the bad guys but who gives a damn? They have to actually have something to rally FOR to actually accomplish anything. Its not good enough to be against something if you're not going to be FOR something better. Get it?

PS - The risky loans would not have been there in the first place to re-package if it were not for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Unaffordable housing is what we have here and now, and its because of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Do the research into those companies. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are the primary cause of the housing crisis. Eliminate government free money to those companies and you're on the right path to a solution.

reply to post by MidnightTide


You guys think Obama has far more power to enact change than he actually holds. Change isn't going to happen in a short few years, especially with repubs in charge of the House.

Obama is certainly better than GW was, and the only alternatives I see so far are right wing nut cases. The only thing the repubs are going to offer is more of the failed policies of the GW admin. Heck, that is what the repubs that control the House want.

Do you really want the bankers to own everything on the planet? That is what conservatives want.

Originally posted by Partisanity

Originally posted by Imogene72
reply to post by constantwonder

 

In Greece, we made up this quote: "No to capitalism, no to communism. No Right, nor left. The only thing that trully matters is Humanitarism".

Think about it.

Unfortunately humanitarianism isn't going to get your face on the cover of Forbes. The truth most commonly falls on deaf ears.

I know you are 100% right. However, you 've got to fight for what you believe. Or at least we do. That's how we've been raised. Foolish, I know, but still, if nobody stands for it, then it won't exist.

reply to post by seachange


Everything you post here is propaganda nonsense.

You use the term regulations, when what you really want to eliminate is laws against white collar crime. You support the banker crooks, and that is quite clear.

Like everyone else who talks about about the U.S. government, you want Banker controlled Corporations to control everyone's lives. Maybe you don't realize it, maybe you are just another propaganda controlled zombie.

Maybe you can explain why you want bankers to rule the world.

I think this is the official website for the group trying to ignite protests across the U.S..

occupywallst.org...

I think this is where you should go to consider signing up for the group.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by seachange

 

Everything you post here is propaganda nonsense.

Then its time to have a battle of facts and we'll see who's facts seem the most believable. You just told me that excessive rebundling of mortgages caused the housing bubble. I agree. So, why did that happen. Well, who was buying the mortgates?

Fannie and Freddie raise cash to buy mortgages from a variety of sources, including pension funds, mutual funds and foreign governments. Their influence on economies at home and abroad is pervasive enough that the Federal Reserve and the U.S. Treasury felt they had little choice but to offer assurances that the companies will not be permitted to collapse from reverberations of the sub-prime mortgage debacle.

Source: www.time.com...

Do you understand that? Do you understand that the biggest players in the mortgage business were operating under the assumption that it didn't really matter if the loans they bought were any good because they'd be bailed out if they turned out to be bad?

If you understand that, then how can you possibly not understand it was the government banker bail-out guarantees that caused the mortgage bubble? Its like 1+1=2 is just propaganda to you. Time magazine, a propaganda factory, definitely was right when it said:

During the Great Depression, as borrowers defaulted on mortgages en masse and banks found themselves strapped for cash, President Franklin D. Roosevelt and Congress created Fannie Mae in 1938 in order to buy mortgages from lenders, freeing up capital that could go to other borrowers. Although Fannie Mae began with just $1 billion in purchasing power, the agency helped usher in a new generation of American home ownership, paving the way for banks to loan money to low- and middle-income buyers who otherwise might not have been considered creditworthy. Fannie Mae grew so large over the years that in 1968, with the pressures of the Vietnam War straining the national budget, President Lyndon Johnson took Fannie Mae's debt portfolio off the government balance sheet; Fannie Mae was converted into a publicly traded company owned by investors. Two years later, Freddie Mac was launched, primarily to keep Fannie Mae from functioning as a monopoly. It went public in 1989.

(same) Source: www.time.com...

Originally posted by Imogene72

Originally posted by Partisanity

Originally posted by Imogene72
reply to post by constantwonder

 

In Greece, we made up this quote: "No to capitalism, no to communism. No Right, nor left. The only thing that trully matters is Humanitarism".

Think about it.

Unfortunately humanitarianism isn't going to get your face on the cover of Forbes. The truth most commonly falls on deaf ears.

I know you are 100% right. However, you've got to fight for what you believe. Or at least we do. That's how we've been raised. Foolish, I know, but still, if nobody stands for it, then it won't exist.

I don't think it's foolish. Inspiration is what the country REALLY needs. Everyone knows what's wrong and who is pushing the wrong and benefits grossly from it, they just don't think there is enough unity to push for what they believe in, or they're too caught up with the thrill of arguing with eachother over partisan rhetoric to care.

I think another big problem with this situation is that people think they can Ghandi away corporate sociopaths -- they're really just laughing at you as you join hands and chant campfire songs on the sidewalk -- they have no concern for emotions, just their wallets. We need to show them we're serious.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by seachange

 

Everything you post here is propaganda nonsense.

The most important fact you call propaganda is the fact that the mortgage bubble was caused by government regulations (and not government de-regulations). Again, I'm being more specific now and will look at the facts of the matter.

My previous post shows that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were created through government regulations. However, my previous post does not show that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were a cause of the housing bubble. Here is some more information that shows exactly that:

The belief in the implicit government guarantee allowed the pair [Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac] to borrow cheaply. This made their model work. They could earn more on the mortgages they bought than they paid to raise money in the markets. Had Fannie and Freddie been hedge funds, this strategy would have been known as a “carry trade”.

It also allowed Fannie and Freddie to operate with tiny amounts of capital. The two groups had core capital (as defined by their regulator) of $83.2 billion at the end of 2007 (see chart 2); this supported around $5.2 trillion of debt and guarantees, a gearing ratio of 65 to one. According to CreditSights, a research group, Fannie and Freddie were counterparties in $2.3 trillion-worth of derivative transactions, related to their hedging activities.

There is no way a private bank would be allowed to have such a highly geared balance sheet, nor would it qualify for the highest AAA credit rating. In a speech to Congress in 2004, Alan Greenspan, then the chairman of the Fed, said: “Without the expectation of government support in a crisis, such leverage would not be possible without a significantly higher cost of debt.” The likelihood of “extraordinary support” from the government is cited by Standard & Poor’s (S&P), a rating agency, in explaining its rating of the firms’ debt.

Source: www.economist.com...

Do you see how that worked Poet? Those mortgages were repackaged and re-sold. And that happened using leverage of 65 to 1. That leverage all rested on a foundation of the concept of the government banker bail-out. The reason the mortgage market was overblown is that Fannie and Freddy were overblown. And how did those organisations get overblown? The Federal Reserve System. The Federal Reserve System is a big mountain of empty promises... its downright fraudulent.

Many bankers on Wall Street do belong in jail. But again, unless you replace them with something that works you've accomplished nothing. It was nice to see Saddam Hussein lose power of Iraq, but ultimately a worthless mission. It would be nice to see the bankers in prison, but you put them in prison and they'll be replaced with more criminals. You have to have a system to work FOR, before you have the right to push AGAINST the system we have now. Thats all I'm saying and that is not propaganda but rather common sense.

EDIT - Is that article by the Economist propaganda? Yes, or no please? If not, then you can no longer say everything in my posts is propaganda. I figure you'd like the Economist magazine since like you, they lean towards the Keynesian models and other nonsensical models you would favor.

reply to post by seachange

You just told me that excessive rebundling of mortgages caused the housing bubble. I agree. So, why did that happen. Well, who was buying the mortgates?

It was falsely rating risky loans as secure investments that was the illegal activity that created the whole mess.

That is why it happened. You are trying to blame the victims for the actions of the criminals.

In addition, people who think like you elected politicians who don't believe in policing white collar crime, so instead of doing their jobs and shutting down this illegal activity, they encouraged it, and tried to claim it was proof of economic growth. All the free market suckers were talking up on the boards how good the real estate boom was, while those of us who saw what a con it was warned of looming consequences of such fraudulent activity.

Now you come on here defending the bankers, and blaming regulation for failures that were actually created by de-regulation. Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae did fine for over a half a century. It was de-regulation that brought the system down. Deregulation that the bankers got filthy rich exploiting.

Why do you want the bankers to run the planet?

reply to post by seachange


It was falsely rating bad loans as sound investments that allowed the whole scam to be perpetrated.

All as a result of de-regulation. And you come here defending the crooks.

Alot of arguing I see in the thread about who is the idiot for this idea or that idea.
Now here is the killer, those folks out there with the video cams, phones, computers, Etc. are doing something.
They may not know what they are doing or how they will keep this movement alive, hell they may be total idiots for all I know.
But they are doing something, can you say....err type the same?
The bigger idea is, They have seen that there is a problem and are doing something....anything is better than nothing.
Meanwhile in hometown USA we argue and bicker.
The PTB have done a good job, give them a round of applause.
They have managed to divide and conquer once again.
If I have hurt your feelings I am truly sorry and apologize.
Hope it helps.

Probably some of those people are locals who came out to see what was happening. I bet some of of them don't have a clue what it's about. Could be a giant block party.
I see the livestream people have used Olbermann for their propaganda. He's calling to "peacefully break the back of govt" hmmmmm
I never heard the Tea Party say to break the back of govt. We need to have discrimination about these things.

reply to post by g146541


You are right. Petty bickering over semantics. Its the core idea that we hold onto that matters.

Semantics is for subjective one sided minds, not analytical and creative beings that can objectify.

All I know is that I'm glad they are doing this, at least they are doing something! not just whining over the internet like I see some people do.

I've heard so many people talk about revolution but never any action. Well, there is action on Wall St. right now and even though it doesn't work out exactly like planned, they've voiced their opinion. Many ATS members also talk about how America is brainwashed, dumbed down by the media and never stand up against the giants, well here we are, some people now armed with the truth on their side have decided to do something. If this event even gets the bankers and elite thinking that they can't just do what they want anymore then we had an impact. Nothing happens overnight and this is just the beginning.


I don't know about you guys but this is PROGRESS!

Originally posted by jimnuggits
reply to post by sageofmonticello

 

What we have today is NOT capitalism.

Free markets rise and fall based solely on innovation, supply and demand.

We have been subsidizing giant dinosaurs for decades.

You cannot simultaneously preach Capitalism and subsidize failing corporations.

It is a Fascist idea for the tax payers to shoulder the failures of corporatons, without getting to share in the profits.

Right now, Americans own a ton of their toxic debt, yet AIG execs get to party on our tax money.

We still do not have a capitalist system... YET.

We've seen what unfettered Capitalism (chasing of profits) can do... it's not pretty. To have your only motive being profit and your only check/balance being "voting with your dollar"... that's a recipe for humanitarian/ecological (and even economic) disaster rooted in unforgivable naivety and blind faith in money, markets, wage-slavery and endless consumption.

We've never had a "pure" Capitalist system, however, and hopefully we never will.

Please read: (scroll down for chapters)
infoshop.org...

reply to post by seachange

my previous post does not show that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were a cause of the housing bubble. Here is some more information that shows exactly that:

Not saying they did not have a part in it, and I appreciate you using "a" cause in your analysis, but to be fair, we should include all entities involved and the FBI investigation highlights those involved.
Food for thought

-Securities Fraud
-High Yield Investment Fraud/Ponzi Schemes
-Insider Trading
-Corporate Fraud Securities Fraud
-Market Manipulation
-Foreclosure Rescue Scams

www.fbi.gov...
www.fbi.gov...

The FBI says it has 21 open investigations into possible large-scale fraud related to the subprime meltdown. The Times reported last month that a federal grand jury in Los Angeles had subpoenaed records from three large California lenders: Countrywide Financial Corp. (now part of Bank of America Corp.), New Century Financial Corp. and IndyMac Federal Bank.
Among other possible targets, the FBI has said, are investment firms that sold billions in securities backed by shaky subprime mortgages and credit rating agencies that gave high marks to the now-worthless securities and failed to protect investors.

articles.latimes.com...
Seems many were at the greedy water hole during those times.

reply to post by poet1b


I'm with you on this, brother.

You're leaving something out, though. You might want to add that after hundreds of years of sound mortgages practices, SUDDENLY the government decided to throw lending standards and credit rankings out the window, presumably because we decided that EVERYONE deserves a house in America---no matter if you have lousy credit.

People were running to the banks in stampedes to buy a house.

The REAL reason this was done was to bankrupt America. They knew within a few years it would create economic chaos, which is what TPTB wanted.

And people like Congressman Barney Frank (whom has been accused of being a pedophile child raper) were in the forefront of it all.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by seachange

 

It was falsely rating bad loans as sound investments that allowed the whole scam to be perpetrated.

All as a result of de-regulation. And you come here defending the crooks.

It was falsely rating bad loans that allowed the scam to exist. And that is an important point! There were regulations against fraud at the time they happened, so the regulations were there to stop a big part of the problem. Thats a regulation I believe in... I believe in having rules against fraud that everyone has to follow. And that rule can be about three sentences long... not tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of pages long like the business regulations we have now in the USA.

So yes, falsely rating bad loans allowed the scam to exist. BUT, it was Fannie Mae, Freddy Mac, and the Federal Reserve that allowed it to grow to trillions of dollars in size. Yes or no poet, did Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac, and the Federal reserve allow that scam to grow to record-shattering proportions? I'll answer any yes or no question you throw at me with an honest answer, because what you call "propaganda" I call the common sense facts of the matter.

I'm not defending banking crooks now any more than I was defending Saddam Hussein in the early 2000's when I was against he Iraq war. "Either you're with us or you're with the terrorists on the invasion of Iraq" vs. "Either you're with us or with the bankers on the invasion of Wall Street."

This occupation of Wall Street will be no more effective of the occupation of Iraq. In both cases you have corrupt crooks running things. But yet without knowing what system you'll replace it with, all you're doing is replacing one crook for another.