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Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by mademyself1984
So what is your solution?
What is your perfect lifestyle, and its description that it should be a standard template for everyone?
Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by mademyself1984
That's all fair and good what you argue.
But we are talking about the army.
I assume people do know that there probably about 200 000 gay and lesbian people in the US army.
Originally posted by FlyingSpaghettiMonster
reply to post by mademyself1984
No one is 'subjecting' anyone to anything, except straights are denying gay/bi people something they take for granted. You're right, the army is not about 'expressing sexuality': it's about killing people. And people of all persuasions have been fighting and killing happily for centuries - how does knowledge of sexuality change that? But on the subject of 'expressing', the straight end of things forget that they are doing just that, but because they unconsciously assume themselves to be the norm, they don't even realise they're doing it. That's how it should be with gay/bi people. Believe it or not, we don't actually get turned on by people telling us when and where we can be ourselves. It's clear that gay/bi soldiers can keep their mind on the job of killing - can you?
Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by mademyself1984
You raise a lot of important and valid points.
To even think of just a few as a reply is quite challenging.
I do like your tone however, because I can see you are sincere, and speaking your mind without being deliberately hurtful.
Let me just say that you talk about people "choosing" to be gay.
Religion tries to use all sexuality to prove its point, and they are quick to point out any lack in scientific knowledge.
However, most of what they say on gender and gay people is rubbish.
The overwhelming scientific evidence suggests that being gay is not chosen.
I would also challenge stereotypical thinking about gay people.
Some are recognizable, but others are not.
So if a gay man acts just like a straight man, then how does it make you uncomfortable?
Is it not worth something that gay men were willing to fight and die for their country?
And look at all the crap they had to go through to do it!
That's a huge thumbs up to any country or ideal.
I don't understand Americans sometimes.
Your gay brothers went through so much, and were willing to die beside you!
But oh no, I don't want to shower next to them ... please segregate them ...
I do find it hard to understand.
Originally posted by 200457
Well a straight man isn't going to be looking at another mans junk. A gay man will.
Originally posted by mademyself1984
But...the military isn't there for people to "express their sexuality." Your sexuality does not matter to the military, nor should it. Does this mean don't ask don't tell is right or wrong is a totally separate argument. The ARGUMENT is...should gays be allowed in the military, and most military members answer to that question, is that we don't care as long as it isn't an issue. If you joined the military as a homosexual, and were chaptered out due to your homosexuality, prior to the repeal of don't ask don't tell, then that isn't my fault, your fault, or anyone's fault, but said homosexuals. The military shouldn't be changing the rules for anyone. If my boss at work says I can't wear flip flops, I can't wear flip flops. If I'm discouraged from saying Merry Christmas, I don't say Merry Christmas. The military isn't their to give a # about anyone's sexuality. It isn't there to cater or to be equal to anybody's sexuality. It is there (agree or disagree) to defend our country and our flag. The military ALWAYS has been equal in inequality. The same rules apply to EVERYONE. Regardless of your beliefs, your sexuality, your political affiliations, your personal agendas...when you sign a contract...none of those matter until you fulfill the end of your agreement. Gays aren't the only ones who can't "publicly display their sexuality." Public displays of affection in uniform are actually a violation of the UCMJ and Military Regulations...this is ACROSS THE BOARD. Straight, Bi-sexual, Gay...it doesn't matter. The reason it isn't an issue for me to "practice my sexuality" is because as a straight man, I don't make my sexuality the hot topic everywhere I go. I don't tell everyone I encounter I am straight. I don't scream from rooftops about being straight. I don't go to "straight pride parades" and scream for "straight rights". I'm straight and I don't need to TELL people I am straight. Gays or bisexuals can be gay or bisexual, most of them I've ever known didn't NEED to tell me they were gay or bisexual. I KNEW they were gay or bisexual. The entire premise of don't ask don't tell is don't run around holding hands proclaiming your gayness and kissing on people of the same sex...not because you are GAY or BISEXUAL....straight people in the military are not afforded that behavior either. In a small pond, perhaps a Lieutenant or Captain or first line leader or whatever might not give two #s. Gay or straight....(I've seen examples of both being accepted as far as public displays of affection go), but in the grand scheme of things...it's never been something the army condones or appreciates. Gay or straight.
Originally posted by FlyingSpaghettiMonster
reply to post by mademyself1984
No one is 'subjecting' anyone to anything, except straights are denying gay/bi people something they take for granted. You're right, the army is not about 'expressing sexuality': it's about killing people. And people of all persuasions have been fighting and killing happily for centuries - how does knowledge of sexuality change that? But on the subject of 'expressing', the straight end of things forget that they are doing just that, but because they unconsciously assume themselves to be the norm, they don't even realise they're doing it. That's how it should be with gay/bi people. Believe it or not, we don't actually get turned on by people telling us when and where we can be ourselves. It's clear that gay/bi soldiers can keep their mind on the job of killing - can you?
Originally posted by gamesmaster63
Originally posted by mademyself1984
But...the military isn't there for people to "express their sexuality." Your sexuality does not matter to the military, nor should it. Does this mean don't ask don't tell is right or wrong is a totally separate argument. The ARGUMENT is...should gays be allowed in the military, and most military members answer to that question, is that we don't care as long as it isn't an issue. If you joined the military as a homosexual, and were chaptered out due to your homosexuality, prior to the repeal of don't ask don't tell, then that isn't my fault, your fault, or anyone's fault, but said homosexuals. The military shouldn't be changing the rules for anyone. If my boss at work says I can't wear flip flops, I can't wear flip flops. If I'm discouraged from saying Merry Christmas, I don't say Merry Christmas. The military isn't their to give a # about anyone's sexuality. It isn't there to cater or to be equal to anybody's sexuality. It is there (agree or disagree) to defend our country and our flag. The military ALWAYS has been equal in inequality. The same rules apply to EVERYONE. Regardless of your beliefs, your sexuality, your political affiliations, your personal agendas...when you sign a contract...none of those matter until you fulfill the end of your agreement. Gays aren't the only ones who can't "publicly display their sexuality." Public displays of affection in uniform are actually a violation of the UCMJ and Military Regulations...this is ACROSS THE BOARD. Straight, Bi-sexual, Gay...it doesn't matter. The reason it isn't an issue for me to "practice my sexuality" is because as a straight man, I don't make my sexuality the hot topic everywhere I go. I don't tell everyone I encounter I am straight. I don't scream from rooftops about being straight. I don't go to "straight pride parades" and scream for "straight rights". I'm straight and I don't need to TELL people I am straight. Gays or bisexuals can be gay or bisexual, most of them I've ever known didn't NEED to tell me they were gay or bisexual. I KNEW they were gay or bisexual. The entire premise of don't ask don't tell is don't run around holding hands proclaiming your gayness and kissing on people of the same sex...not because you are GAY or BISEXUAL....straight people in the military are not afforded that behavior either. In a small pond, perhaps a Lieutenant or Captain or first line leader or whatever might not give two #s. Gay or straight....(I've seen examples of both being accepted as far as public displays of affection go), but in the grand scheme of things...it's never been something the army condones or appreciates. Gay or straight.
I'll give you that no personnel are allowed public displays of affection while in uniform.
I'll also admit that I wasn't clear enough on what I intended, I meant that off post and out of uniform it should not make a difference, a slong as they not behave in a manner that brings discredit to the service.
I have a cheap solution.
Openly gay men must shower with their eyes closed.
Bisexuals (or some of those men who aren't too picky) get to keep one eye open.
And no peeking, or you get the blindfold!