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Can the bible prove against the term "Everlasting punishment" ?

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posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 08:41 AM
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Very impressive knowledge of the Bible...however one must only look in one place for the truth...NO ONE is worthy...and all fall short of the Glory of God and all of your most righteous acts are but filthy rags...so keep on pointing fingers at others short comings, for by the measure you judge others, so you shall be judged.

Think about it...and Love others as you wish to be loved...treat others as you wish to be treated...no one is above the law and ALL are sinners, yes even you.




posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 08:55 AM
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If you actually read the bible its pretty clear its not forever torment, its instant destruction once all is said and done and the final judgment is over.

Everlasting as in no coming back from being destroyed, not tormented forever.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 11:41 AM
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reply to post by benrl
 


If "I" actually read the bible?

Or the thousands of preachers and churches etc throughout history who sowed everlasting fire and torment into the hearts and minds of those who were unable to defend themselves from a subject that couldn't be questioned or elaborated on?


You know, many years ago I was brought up in a very strict and cultish church which was very hard to break away from.

Within this environment, you don't read the bible with your own mind, your read it with the church leaders mind.

And you don't answer questions....you ask them, leading you full circle into the lions den again.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 12:10 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 

. . .its instant destruction. . .
Destruction can be simply being killed like thousands of people every day die. Go ahead and show where the Bible teaches total annihilation of people's existence.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 12:15 PM
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reply to post by Andronian
 

. . .all of your most righteous acts are but filthy rags...
Could you show where the Bible teaches this?
There is a verse in the Old Testament which says that about themselves as Israel was being exiled from the land by the Assyrians and so attributed this to God punishing them so they abased themselves. That is an isolated incident and what I want from you is a verse in the New Testament saying this is a universal fact that our righteousness is worthless.
edit on 17-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 04:21 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Matthew 10:28


Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 08:17 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 
I went over that verse earlier in this thread, on page two. My conclusion was that the operative word in this verse is, hell, where God has power to not just send you to the earthly version of hell, such as what can be done by men, but to be able to do something beyond this world and in the actual hell.


edit on 17-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 18 2011 @ 09:27 AM
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Given the three choices for where-the-lost-go-when-they-die, eternal torment, final annihilation, or universal reconciliation, I subscribe to the latter. Most importantly, it is the only choice which is consistent with the character of God. Here is a link with sufficient Biblical references to establish this as a Doctrine:

www.tentmaker.org...

Those of you who believe in a burning Hell, ask yourselves why God's Law prescribes no punishment worse than simple death? Ask yourselves why God told Adam and Eve that if they ate the fruit, that they would die, not die-and-go-to-hell-for-eternity. Further, God's kindness to Cain, among many other things, is inexplicable if seen through the filter of hellfire.



posted on Sep, 18 2011 @ 10:12 AM
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reply to post by Lazarus Short
 
If anyone is interested in a fourth option, you could read by description of Hell from personal experience in the thread, When we die do we go straight to heaven or do we wait?
In that thread I describe a sort of existence for lack of a better term, I call, stasis, which is not like physical suffering, as in painful burning in flames. Even the word torment in the rich man and Lazarus story is only a type of mental anguish. The drop of water can easily be explained from my telling in various threads on this forum of my time in Hades. I was asked by a reader if I was hungry. The answer was, no, so the vary idea of drinking water would be a relief from the monotony of never feeling hungry or thirsty. It would put you in touch with your old life, back in the world, to use a prison term ( I was never in prison but it was used in a movie or something on TV).



posted on Sep, 18 2011 @ 11:36 AM
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I thought of a fourth option myself, and decided that it should be simply nothingness.



posted on Sep, 18 2011 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Yes, burning, that is what the christian churches teach! "You will burn in hell"!!, literal fire. Have you not ever heard that? I hear it a lot as most people in my family are fundamentalist christian, except for me.



posted on Sep, 18 2011 @ 04:10 PM
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Originally posted by Lazarus Short
I thought of a fourth option myself, and decided that it should be simply nothingness.
I think that would be the same as annihilation.
You may have a variation on that and if so I would be interested to know what that is.
I believe that there is a god or maybe goddess or both, of the underworld, not anything like Satan or something like that, more just these spirits of such strength and cohesiveness as to be able to think of them as persons. This is where the tree of knowledge came from and is not the air or heaven's gods and/or goddesses' creation, as was the other trees in the Garden. So they are neither good nor evil but just are, but claim our souls as being rightly theirs. The human quest is for another god or maybe a godlike person who is able to free us from that claim made by the earth goddess(or whatever). The catch is, who that person is who does do this freeing has to accept you, not just a one-way street, so to speak. There can be various theories on how that works but you have to consider that this is something which happens on a spiritual level, though the human soul does operate simultaneously on both levels, so one is a reflection of the other, so both must be in line with the savior. The earth itself is rather ambivalent and accepts no argument directly from any individual person such as ourselves.
edit on 18-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 18 2011 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by jmdewey60
 
Yes, burning, that is what the christian churches teach! "You will burn in hell"!!, literal fire. Have you not ever heard that? I hear it a lot as most people in my family are fundamentalist christian, except for me.
Not in my church which does not teach that sort of thing and believe the soul is annihilated after judgement, of course if one is not rescued by Jesus.



posted on Sep, 19 2011 @ 12:08 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
I thought of a fourth option myself, and decided that it should be simply nothingness.
I think that would be the same as annihilation.
You may have a variation on that and if so I would be interested to know what that is.


No, I suggested simple nothingness just for the sake of argument. I adhere strictly to universal reconciliation.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 09:37 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 
OK, let's go ahead and flip this around for clarity, as you're arguing against annihilationsm.

Given the verses that I posted and we've discussed on this earlier in this thread (page 1), can you clarify for me how the verses and words used themselves suggest anything other than annihilation (hence meaning they suggest eternal life in hell) when the ever-present contrast is between the saved having life eternal as the gift of god, with access to the tree of life - while the unsaved perish, die the second death, go to destruction, and so on.

You've posted some other examples of where one specific term is used merely as a temporal death in this life...but if you'll notice the repeating thread there, the consistent reference is to death, ceasing, perishing, the end of life - not eternal life in judgement or hell. It's all about the specific context involved. 'Jesus' was quite clear in his usage of the term that god can destroy both body and soul in hell, and I have a hard time linking consisten usage of destroy, perish, die, and so forth as "be given eternal life in hell".

Perhaps you could clarify this, instead of just looking for contextually-different usages of the word that still do nothing to argue against the fact that the term is clearly contrasting the saved's eternal life with death, of which revelation tells us the unsaved will go to their second. Death does not equal eternal life. Semantic gymnastics cannot rectify the difference.



posted on Sep, 22 2011 @ 06:35 PM
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reply to post by Praetorius
 

OK, let's go ahead and flip this around for clarity, as you're arguing against annihilationsm.

Given the verses that I posted and we've discussed on this earlier in this thread (page 1), can you clarify for me how the verses and words used themselves suggest anything other than annihilation (hence meaning they suggest eternal life in hell)
Yes you are flipping it around but it has nothing to do with clarification, as you put it.
You are setting up the debate and choosing the two sides of the debate, assigning me the job to defend the position, Annihilation is incorrect.
My true position is: As far as I can tell, from reading the Bible, it does not teach annihilation.
So your "flipping" is giving me the impossible job of proving that there is no such teaching, while you sit there and consider yourself correct by my not proving anything.



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 01:49 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 
No - what I'm saying is how do words typically translated as death, destruction, perishing, and so forth somehow get completely inverted to mean "eternal life", typically 'eternal life in flaming torment' as usually understood by christians.

When the overriding emphasis is death or ending, how does this somehow get cast with a completely contradictory spin? Can you tell me how they disagree with the idea of a final ending to existence (other than looking at other usages of the term that refer to an EARTH death or end), and where the bible otherwise teaches something that suggests these mean something other than a final ending or final death?

If the wages of sin is death/god sent his son so that whoever believes in him should not perish/and god can destroy both body and soul in hell (as compared to the gift of god being life/should have everlasting life/so forth) - where do we come up with the idea that these people have eternal life, or that we aren't talking about the utter end of these people? It's not a trap, it's an honest question that one should be able to answer if there is a valid case to argue against it.



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 02:31 PM
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reply to post by Praetorius
 

it's an honest question that one should be able to answer if there is a valid case to argue against it.
You seem to be unable to recognize your own perverseness. You have to make loaded questions and I don't notice you ever doing otherwise. You can say it is not a trap, and it may not be in a certain sense but it is a type of entrapment, the way you word things.
What you need to do is find some verse that says that people will be as though they never came into existence. This is the only thing I can think of right now, and it comes from the SDA church which you know goes for this idea that souls die forever, after a proper judgement. I was at church in Sabbath School and a related subject came up and this man was quoting Mrs. White, about a situation where a slave owner kept his slaves from ever being able to hear a single word about Jesus. Her response was something like, "Oh, don't worry, God is not going to punish them and probably not even call them to judgement. They will just be as if they had never been born." The man was acting like this made him feel good, and I said, "that does not make me feel better."
There are verses where Jesus says that people would be better off if they were never born. That may be where this idea comes from because they don't just make things up, it is always some interpretation of a verse, from somewhere.



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 

What you need to do is find some verse that says that people will be as though they never came into existence.

Why would I need to do that when the bible is quite clear on teaching that they'll die, give no suggesting that they'll have eternal life, and only teach that the saved will be gifted eternal life and have access to the tree of life? And it's not a suggestion that it's anything like they never came into existence, but there is clear teaching that they'll be utterly destroy, perish, die the second death, and the memory of them will be forgotten.

As far as what Ellen White supposedly said, then that's just silly on her part. I consider death a punishment (as it is the wages of sin)...


There are verses where Jesus says that people would be better off if they were never born. That may be where this idea comes from because they don't just make things up, it is always some interpretation of a verse, from somewhere.

... and death by fire to be quite a strenuous one at that - as well as being better never to have been born than to be born, live a life of sin, and die a second death in flames to be utterly destroyed and forgotten.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, I promise that, and apologize for anything that you're viewing as perverseness on my part. No such thing is intended, I'm merely trying to prove all things and hold fast that which is true, as Paul taught. I don't know any way to do that other than present my case and what I view as supporting evidences for it, ask for examples or clarity to the contrary if I'm astray, and sue for evidences otherwise if my beliefs are argued against.

And it's simply a fact that I can only find teachings stating that the reward is eternal life, the punishment is second and utter death, and no cross-suggestion (unless we go outside the bible to pseudapigraphal books) that the terminology is just confusing and the punishment is actually eternal life under torture. The one example you presented (and I know we'll likely continue to disagree on it - apologies for that) is contextually and internally self-evident as a misunderstood parable that itself contradicts other sections from the bible and no justification for itself when taken literally.



posted on Sep, 23 2011 @ 03:33 PM
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reply to post by Praetorius
 

As far as what Ellen White supposedly said,
She did, I looked it up later.
You can look it up on the E.G.White Estate web site where they have a searchable data base.
I don't know about, "silly" but back then it was a real problem people worried about and thought all these people who did not have a chance to accept the Gospel were going to end up in eternal hell fire.
So, she said something she thought sounded better to her.
She contradicts herself in the example I gave on the SDA Church thread I started, where at one time she said that babies become like they were never born and then she seems to think if the parents (or maybe just one) go to heaven, then so will the baby.
There is an OT word, cherem, which the KJV translates sometimes as, utter destruction. It can be a way of giving things to The Lord, just by making them unusable by people. It is used in the story of Ahab and the king of Syria, where the prophet says that the king was supposed to be utterly destroyed. This just meant, killed.
Second death is only in Revelation, which I don't take literally, and could mean to me, going back to Hades.
I think you suffer from an OT fixation where everything demands a punishment. My advice to not think like that and to study forgiveness. There may be something like, a lack of reward.



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