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Can the bible prove against the term "Everlasting punishment" ?

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posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 04:17 PM
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reply to post by FoxfilesMulder
 
Ah, good reference to Ecclesiastes, I forgot to bring that one in. As Paul taught in his epistles, we sleep upon death, until the resurrection - we don't go right to heaven or hell, and we don't all have eternal life.

We rest and wait the coming - I've always thought how crazy it would be if we did go to heaven first, and then got yanked back to our bodies for the judgement, only to be sent back to heaven again, and how much more terrible it would be for those in hell to get pulled away and re-sentenced again.

I can't make sense of it, and glad I can't find the teaching to support it outside christianity's failed version of "scared straight".




posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 04:23 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 
Well, I'll simply ask:

What kind of paradise would that be for us to see everyone - including our loved ones - being tortured all the time, and what kind of weak hellfire would it be for one drop of water to lend comfort?

Additionally, if you check the greek, you can see that the word translated 'hell' in these verses is the reference to hades - the grave. Not gehenna, the lake of fire. The whole parable is misunderstood and out of context if you don't review it in-depth.

Be well.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 04:25 PM
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reply to post by Praetorius
 


Haha, yes, that would be quite annoying to say the least!



Be careful what you think about, I once had a dream that explained when we die, we go to the place we thought we would always end up in.

If you thought you would go to Valhalla to fight forever or if you think there is nothing after death, so be it, that is your hell.


Its a hard job sitting on the right hand of God, but someone has to do it!



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by Praetorius
reply to post by jmdewey60
 
Hmmm...by the bible teaching that only the saved get the gift of God, which is eternal life, and that the others will perish, face destruction, die the second death, have both body and soul destroyed?

The bible simply sets out two fairly clear courses - eternal life, or death...not any sort of unending sadistic middle ground.
What you quoted earlier was Mathew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
A cross-reference for this could be Mathew 5:22
But I say to you that anyone who is angry with a brother will be subjected to judgment. And whoever insults a brother will be brought before the council, and whoever says ‘Fool’ will be sent to fiery hell.

In both cases, the word for Hell is Gehenna. So you could make a connection between these people who can destroy you into a fiery hell for doing something wrong and being so adjudicated, and some people who could send you to a fiery hell for doing something good, like preaching the Gospel. Jesus makes the comparison between this thing I just described, and another thing which by implication could mean, God, doing a sort of more permanent type of destruction. So this is not annihilation, but a continuing on of something that started in this world but the earthly, human authorities have no power to do.
edit on 16-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 04:52 PM
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Guys....stop playing around with hebrew and greek words for hell....you will just confuse each other. Turn to the English for clearer and MUCH more accurate answers.

Thank God for my English King James Bible.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by Praetorius
reply to post by jmdewey60
 
Well, I'll simply ask:

What kind of paradise would that be for us to see everyone - including our loved ones - being tortured all the time, and what kind of weak hellfire would it be for one drop of water to lend comfort?

Additionally, if you check the greek, you can see that the word translated 'hell' in these verses is the reference to hades - the grave. Not gehenna, the lake of fire. The whole parable is misunderstood and out of context if you don't review it in-depth.

Be well.
So then you have no contradictory evidence.
Your argument is dependent on Hell Fire which is not in the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus.
You are, in my opinion, taking it out of context yourself by assuming it is a parable and not a prophecy.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 04:59 PM
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Just found a list of some on topic scriptures folks!

When you are reading these, remember, Sheol is Translated as Hell in most of the English biblical translations, which makes the verse in question become out of context.

So.. where it reads Hell, you should re-read it as Sheol, meaning - Realm of the dead






2 Samuel 22:6 (Margin)—"The cords of hell compassed me about." [A figure in which trouble is represented as hastening one to the tomb.]

Job 11:8—"It [God’s wisdom] is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell [than any pit]; what canst thou know?"

Job 26:6—"Hell [the tomb] is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering."

Psalm 16:10—"Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." [This refers to our Lord’s three days in the tomb.—Acts 2:31, 3:15.]

Psalm 18:5 (Margin)—"The cords of hell compassed me about." [As in 2 Sam. 22:6, trouble is represented as hastening one to the tomb .]

Psalm 55:15—"Let them go down quick into hell" [margin, the grave.]

Psalm 86:13—"Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell" [margin, the grave.]

Psalm 116:3—"The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me." [Sickness and trouble are the figurative hands of the grave to grasp us.]

Psalm 139:8—"If I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." [God’s power is unlimited; even over those in the tomb he can and will exert it and bring forth all that are in the graves.--John 5:28.]

Proverbs 5:5—"Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell" [i.e., lead to the grave].

Proverbs 7:27—"Her house is the way to hell [the grave], going down to the chambers of death."

Proverbs 9:18—"He knoweth not that the dead are there, and that her guests are in the depths of hell." [The harlot’s guests are represented as dead, diseased, or dying, and many of the victims of sensuality in premature graves from diseases which also hasten their posterity to the tomb.]

Proverbs 15:11—"Hell and destruction are before the Lord." [Here the grave is associated with destruction and not with a life of torment.]

Proverbs 15:24—"The path of life (leadeth) upward for the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath." [This illustrates the hope of resurrection from the tomb.]

Proverbs 23:14—"Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell" [i.e., wise correction will save a child from vicious ways which lead to premature death, and may also possibly prepare him to escape the Second Death].

Proverbs 27:20—"Hell [the grave] and destruction are never full: so the eyes of man are never satisfied."

Isaiah 5:14—"Therefore hell hath enlarged herself and opened her mouth without measure." [Here the grave is a symbol of destruction.]

Isaiah 14:9, 15—"Hell [margin, grave] from beneath is moved for thee, to meet thee at thy coming . . . thou shalt be brought down to hell" [the grave- so rendered in verse 11].

Isaiah 28:15-18—"Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell [the grave] are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us, for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore, saith the Lord... Your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell [the grave] shall not stand." [God thus declared that the present prevalent idea, by which death and the grave are represented as friends, rather than enemies, shall cease; and men shall learn that death is the wages of sin, and that it is in Satan’s power (Rom. 6:23; Heb. 2:14) and not an angel sent by God.]

Isaiah 57:9—"And didst debase thyself even unto hell." [Here figurative of deep degradation.]

Ezekiel 31:15-17—"In the day when he went down to the grave . . . I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit . . . They also went down into hell with him, unto them that be slain with the sword." [Figurative and prophetic description of the fall of Babylon into destruction, silence, the grave.]

Jonah 2:1, 2—"Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord, his God, out of the fish’s belly, and said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice." [The belly of the fish was for a time his grave--see margin.]

Habakkuk 2:5—"Who enlargeth his desire as hell [the grave] and as death, and cannot be satisfied."
edit on 16-9-2011 by FoxfilesMulder because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


No friend, the context of the section it appears in and the content of the tale itself - as well as pretty much all bible headers I've ever seen calling it "the parable of Lazarus and the rich man", as well as it otherwise contradicting various ranges of other verses and teachings if taken in a literal way, while confirming a whole different range of others if properly understood as parable - confirm that this is an education parable and not a literal recounting of events.

The evidence is there if you want to put in the legwork to read the article I provided or others, as well as cross-reference with the other testimony of the bible itself as I've previously referred to in small part. If you don't, I can gladly leave you to the beliefs that you would rather hold on to, although they are in error. That is your choice and I won't fault you for it as I know it's the way most of us are raised and taught.

As I said, I'm more than happy to look at information or verses suggesting these views are not correct, but so far none has been provided...and getting caught up on this one section is getting far afield from the original subject at discussion, and the host of other supporting evidences for it.

Regardless, you have a good night. I can only provide the information, it's your choice if you want to actually do anything with it - but wiggling out as you did here is honestly kind of silly. Be blessed.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by Praetorius
 
So, I am wrong because I do not do the leg-work as directed by you, to be properly propagandized.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 05:26 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 
And...you just lost me. I'll try to follow.


Yes, Gehenna as referring to the lake of fire and place of destruction. But Christ isn't teaching that the council can send people into hell fire - only god can do that, and anyone can accept the gift of life and redemption Christ provided. To say that men can send people to hell is to obviate Christ's sacrifice and quite a scary idea indeed, if I'm following you correctly.

I honestly got lost on that last bit altogher, I'm sorry...where he talks about those who say "You Fool!" being in danger of hell fire (remember, always keep in context), he's speaking about anger by way of extending the scope of the commandment against murder (as he does with lust being an extension of adultery). This ties into his other teachings on judgement, forgiving others as we've been forgiven (or else we have no forgiveness), and the fact that we'll be held accountable for every careless word we speak (Matthew 12) in the day of judgement.

Incidentally - Jesus himself uses the term Raca against the pharisees in chapter 23.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 05:27 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 
No...you're wrong because you're not correct.

You're just not seeking to rise above that, is all. I always like to research things when it's brought to my attention that I might be incorrect in my views, as I once did on this issue.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 05:34 PM
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reply to post by Praetorius
 
Human authorities can send you to the earthly fiery hell, but there is another hell where God can send you which is more permanent than what the people here can do to you.
What I want from you is to explain how this verse proves annihilation.


edit on 16-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 05:41 PM
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Parables in the bible are all loaded with bible numerology.

For example, if the parable said "He waved his hand in the air FOUR times", this does not mean he literally waved his hand in the air four times.

Its all about adding "that specific number" to a group of words.


At least 12 numbers in the bible stand out in this regard - 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,10,12,40,50 and 70.


There are 594 chapters before and 594 chapters after Psalm 118. If we add these together we get 1188.

The Centre verse of the Bible is Psalm 118:8

The number '40' is often understood as the “number of probation or trial”. Some examples: the Israelites wandered for 40 years (Deuteronomy 8:2-5); Moses was living on the mount for 40 days (Exodus 24:18); the story of Jonah and Nineveh lasted 40 days (Jonah 3:4); Jesus was tempted for 40 days (Matthew 4:2); and there were 40 days between Jesus’ resurrection and his ascension (Acts 1:3).

During His ministry Jesus raised 3 people from the grave to show his perfect power over death. Peter denied Jesus 3 times but Jesus gave Him the opportunity to repent 3 times. On the cross above Jesus was a sign that said, "King of the Jews". It was written in 3 different languages. Peter had 3 visions to convince him to preach the gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 11:5-10). According to 1 John 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood and these three agree in one. The multiples of the number 3 can have the same meaning. For example, Christ begun His ministry at the age of 30 and died at the age of 33.


The list goes on and on and is quite interesting, although cryptic.





posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 05:52 PM
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Here's what I would consider a good cross-referrence to the verse Mathew 10:28
James 4:12 But there is only one who is lawgiver and judge – the one who is able to save and destroy. On the other hand, who are you to judge your neighbor?
This uses the exact same Greek word for destroy as in the other verse.
It seems a bit ambiguous in both verses, but it would at least seem to be defining what happens to the person to be the opposite of being saved.
There are 8 verses that use this same Greek word in this spelling which indicates how it is used grammatically.
One is what Herod wanted to do with the child spoken of by the wise men from the East.
Two are what was being said by the demons that were talking to Jesus. The fact that they were going around possessing people would indicate they were not placed in their own form of hell.
edit on 16-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Praetorius
 
Human authorities can send you to the earthly fiery hell, but there is another hell where God can send you which is more permanent than what the people here can do to you.
What I want from you is to explain how this verse proves annihilation.


edit on 16-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Friend, I'm not saying this verse proves annihilationism, I'm saying annihilationism is the teaching of the bible when you take all of it together, and that the very few verses people typically use to say otherwise can be shown as being out of context or mistranslated (for lack of a better term): the gift of god for those who accept it is life eternal - those who don't accept it are nowhere promised the same, and they aren't given access to the "tree of life". The wages of sin are death. Those who are not saved perish, body and soul destroyed.

If you'd like me to believe otherwise, you can provide me with additional verses and information to review (and my apologies if I was just being dense on one of your other posts - preferrably a little more clearly for me to follow you).

Otherwise, I don't have a problem disagreeing with you on this matter. While I don't like the threat-teaching of eternal torment, as long as we can all agree on the more important matters of faith and walk in love, that's fine with me (like trinity doctrine - as long as we follow Christ's example and instructions, our beliefs on that and this don't really matter). I do appreciate your input, am just not getting a whole lot out of it so far - no offense intended there, I am admitted shortly on sleep.


Take care.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 06:09 PM
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reply to post by Praetorius
 
Get some sleep and worry about this tomorrow. I doubt you will miss much.
The important thing as individuals is to not end up in hell.
I don't think fire threats is a good evangelism tool.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 06:11 PM
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Just read the parts about Jesus!

The rest can be skim read



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 

Here's what I would consider a good cross-referrence to the verse Mathew 10:28
James 4:12 But there is only one who is lawgiver and judge – the one who is able to save and destroy. On the other hand, who are you to judge your neighbor?
This uses the exact same Greek word for destroy as in the other verse.
It seems a bit ambiguous in both verses, but it would at least seem to be defining what happens to the person to be the opposite of being saved.
There are 8 verses that use this same Greek word in this spelling which indicates how it is used grammatically.
One is what Herod wanted to do with the child spoken of by the wise men from the East.
Two are what was being said by the demons that were talking to Jesus. The fact that they were going around possessing people would indicate they were not placed in their own form of hell.

Thanks for the input on this. One thing I dislike about translations as well as the original languages is the amount of variation possible. My main thrust on the issue is just to emphasize the general nature of these and related verses as compared to a competing theory of eternal torment, which I (at least) would assume would be much more clearly and differently worded, and not contracted with a gift of eternal life.


Get some sleep and worry about this tomorrow. I doubt you will miss much.
The important thing as individuals is to not end up in hell.
I don't think fire threats is a good evangelism tool.

Eh, much too early to sleep (central US) and I'd just be cutting out what bit I may actually be able to get tonight, and definitely don't need to mess my sleep cycles up any worse. As long as we're agreed on the main points, I can deal with theological quibbling done in the right spirit or an agreement to disagree - but I do think you might enjoy the study on Lazarus and the rich man, in addition to a full re-read of Luke 16 to frame it in the proper context, however or not it might affect your views on this topic.

And I definitely agree the fire-and-brimstone approach to evangelizing is bad, regardless. Even if I felt it were true, I personally believe it would be a valid justification for some of the negative things I hear people say about the kind of god who would espouse such things. The obvious outcome, in such case, is definitely not something you'd want to partake in...but could I be a slave to such a being merely out of fear and threats? Even if I had no other disagreement with him, how many countless billions over the course of history would he be willing to torment unceasingly? Regardless if I would end up one of them, I doubt I could bring myself to willfully serve one such as that - so I'm glad I can't, as yet, find sufficient reason to drive me back to that view.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 06:53 PM
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The current models we have for god was never intended. The sages of old knew full well God wasnt about wrath and envy.

Moses and many sages from various regions that helped shape the western god as we know it knew all to well God never was wrathfull, but in trying to abolish old pagan gods they needed to add the phrase Worship the 1 god or he will strke you down with vengfull wrath and fury.

why
simple, because for thousands of years prior they all worshiped various gods and spirit energies, from plants to trees and every thing in between.

they simply didnt want to give up their family god, tribal god, or any other myraid of things they worshiped then.

so in order to lay waste thousands and thousands of years of idol worship they went the easy way out and added all that wrath talk. in order to scare the population into worship of the one god
edit on 16-9-2011 by InshaAllah because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 17 2011 @ 04:28 AM
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reply to post by InshaAllah
 


Definitely plausible!

Just compare the OT God with the NT God.

The comparison almost looks like an exact polar opposite hah!




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