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Can the bible prove against the term "Everlasting punishment" ?

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posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 02:54 PM
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For hundreds of years its been the GREAT SCARE TACTIC of the church.


If you are bad, evil and unsaved "etc" you will be thrown into hell for everlasting punishment in the everlasting fire for all eternity.


Lets take a quick look at some of what the bible actually says on the subject...

Matthew 25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into eternal life." (Notice here the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act.)

Mark 9:43, "And if your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched."

Revelation 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever.



Lots of similar verses can be found in the bible that you may choose to explore further at your own leisure, yet they all conjure up the same questions surrounding this unimaginable horror the church has forced into our spiritual walk and contemplation

Such as...

"How can a God of love be so cruel as to grant torture and torment by fire, to a soul forever and ever?"


Well firstly, I stopped believing in hell years ago after learning hell is an English word that has actually combined two other words, - Hades (realm of the dead) and Gehenna (A real ancient worldly rubbish pit designed to burn the surrounding towns rubbish and dead bodies. If you would like to read my alternative thread regarding the subject "There is no Hell" (Click here)

This still doesn't answer the question of "Can the bible prove against the misconception of an everlasting place of torment?"

And the answer is - yes, I believe so.

Jude 7 makes this subject very plain. "As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them in a similar manner, having given themselves over to sexually immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Sodom and Gomorrah are not burning today, yet the Bible says they suffered the vengeance of eternal fire. How can this be explained? It means that these cities were completely burned, until there was nothing left.

There is another way to determine the meaning of the word "eternal or everlasting".

In English these words mean that the fire will go on forever, but in the Greek it has a different meaning. Dr. Basil Atkinson explains it this way.



"When the adjective aionios, meaning everlasting is used in Greek with nouns of action it has reference to the result of the act, not the process. The phrase everlasting punishment is comparable to everlasting redemption and everlasting salvation, both Scriptural phrases. No one supposes that we are being redeemed or saved forever. We were redeemed and saved once for all by Christ with eternal results. In the same way the lost will not be passing through the process of punishment forever but will be punished once and for all with eternal results. On the other hand the noun 'life' is not a noun of action, but a noun expressing a state. Thus life itself is eternal.

(Basil F. C. Atkinson, Life and Immortality. An Examination of the Nature and Meaning of Life and Death as they are revealed in the Scriptures (Taunton, England, n. n.), p.101.)


While we know nothing of what has been lightly spoken upon, I strongly believe not everything in scripture is so "black and white".

Anyways, I would just like to leave it there and I welcome any feedback.


Thanks ATS




edit on 16-9-2011 by FoxfilesMulder because: Spelling




posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by FoxfilesMulder
 
What, you're not also going to mention the gift of God being life eternal, while the wages of sin are death? Or that we are taught not to fear men who can only kill the body, but to fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell?

Annihilationsim is the prime teaching for the unsaved in the bible - eternal torment is not. Only those who have accepted the gift, which is everlasting life, have it. Man was not created immortal as were some others.

Thanks for bring this up for others, though - I hate the teaching of eternal punishment. So completely antithetical to proper understanding of what's at play.
edit on 9/16/2011 by Praetorius because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 03:08 PM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 03:17 PM
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reply to post by FoxfilesMulder
 


Right, focus on the "punishment" instead of the word RIGHT before it, "everlasting".

Also, as to your other thread regarding Hell.. it's a fairly common misconception that Hell is just a garbage burning place outside of Jerusalem. The writers could not describe it to anything else. God didn't name it Hell, man did - and man could only describe what they saw as "Hell" - ie, a burning pit of fire and maggots.

Hell is a very real place.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 03:21 PM
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reply to post by Lionhearte
 
Hi Lionhearte. I like most of your posts, friend.

However on this one, I have to disagree as per the teaching of pretty much the entirety of the new testament (in addition to the absence of effectively any teaching on hell or eternal torment in the old testament), as well as the fact that I would consider eternal non-existence an everlasting punishment, as compared to eternal torture being an everlasting punishing.

Regardless, please see my post and read John 3.16, the verse in Romans on the wages of sin, and Christ's teaching in Matthew about fearing god and not men (plenty of others out there, but those come to mind offhand).

Take care, and we don't doubt that hell's real - just what it will be used for and how affects the unsaved. Be blessed.
edit on 9/16/2011 by Praetorius because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 03:25 PM
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reply to post by Lionhearte
 


I also believe in Hell

Yet I don't believe a persons soul would be burning in fire forever and ever.

I think even the baddest person will eventually be allowed to move on from the depths of Hell, God willing.


Perhaps they just wont be allowed into the kings court or highest heaven....



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 03:30 PM
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reply to post by Praetorius
 

Annihilationsim is the prime teaching for the unsaved in the bible - eternal torment is not.
According to who?
Revelation, but here is the thing about Revelation, None of it can be taken literally, including annihilation.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 03:33 PM
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reply to post by Lionhearte
 

Hell is a very real place.
All you have to do is read the story of Lazarus, as told in the words of Jesus.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 03:35 PM
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reply to post by FoxfilesMulder
 


The "eternal punishment" taught by the church, is an evil teaching. If there truly is a hell as taught by the church, then the god of the that hell is far more evil than all the sinners in the history of the world combined. It is the ultimate blasphemy by those who teach it. Not to mention, that an eternal punishment would negate what Jesus supposedly did on the cross; die for the sins of ALL mankind. He paid the ultimate price. No need to further that cause.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 03:38 PM
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Remembering also:

In the King James Bible, the Old Testament term Sheol is translated as "Hell" 31 times. However, Sheol was translated as "the grave" 31 other times. Sheol is also translated as "the pit" three times.

While earlier translations most often translated Hades as "hell", as does the King James Version, modern translations use the transliteration "Hades", or render the word as allusions "to the grave", "among the dead", "place of the dead" and many other like statements in other verses.

Infernus - Being underneath. The Latin word infernus means "being underneath" and is often translated as "Hell"

Gehenna - In the New Testament, both early (i.e. the KJV) and modern translations often translate Gehenna as "Hell."
A geographic location just outside Jerusalem (the Valley of Hinnom).
Gehenna refers to the "Valley of Hinnon", which was a real worldly garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It was a place where people burned their garbage and thus there was always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation (such as people who committed suicide) were thrown there to be destroyed.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 03:39 PM
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reply to post by FoxfilesMulder
 


Hell was a city outside of Jerusalem. There was a huge garbage dump there. It burned constantly as it was being fed the dead carcases of animals. The wormwood also never died for the same reason. Hell is symbolic. Have you ever seen christians or any one for that matter, walk around with their arms cut off or their eyes gouged out because they were told to "remove" those parts if they caused the person to sin? I haven't seen any. It is symbolic.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 03:41 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 
Hello. I don't get a great deal from Revelation on this topic, other than it being the 2nd death (as compared to the "first going into eternal torment for sins of short duration").

Matthew chapter 10:

28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


John 3:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


Romans 6:

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


2 Thessalonians:

These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


I don't seek any debate, just discussion on this for any who are willing. I'll gladly review any of the sections some would like to post arguing for eternal life or punishing of the unsaved, but from what bit I've researched this in the past, the fews verses usually provided are either out of context or suffer from translation issues.

To me, it's simply ludicrous on the face of the idea as well as flying against the Word I read that our Father would inflict eternal and untold suffering on His children for temporal and fleeting sins. Christ sought forgiveness of those who acted in evil out of ignorance...I have a hard time imagining the Father would go so much further the opposite direction, espectially when everything I read tells me the gift is life. How do you have a gift you haven't accepted, and why would it be turned to sheer abuse?
edit on 9/16/2011 by Praetorius because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 03:48 PM
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reply to post by aero56
 

The "eternal punishment" taught by the church, is an evil teaching.
As in flames constantly burning you and making you scream in agony? That sort of punishment?
I don't think that happens and would not even make sense why there would be anything like that. What good would it do? Like that movie, No Country for Old Men, where the guy explains he has to do it because he said he would?



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 03:51 PM
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reply to post by Praetorius
 


Great replies buddy!


On topic:

The word hell in old English usage simply meant to conceal, to hide, to cover; hence the concealed, hidden, or covered place.


In old English literature records may be found of the helling of potatoes—putting potatoes into pits; and of the helling of a house—covering or thatching it.

The word hell was therefore properly used synonymously with the words grave and pit, to translate t he words sheol and hades as signifying the secret or hidden condition of death. Instead of a place of blazing fire, it is described in the context as a state of darkness (Job 10:21); instead of a place where shrieks and groans are heard, it is described in the context as a place of silence (Psa. 115:17); instead of representing in any sense pain and suffering, or remorse, the context describes it as a place or condition of forgetfulness (Psa. 88:11, 12). There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, in the grave [sheol] whither thou goest Eccl. 9:10.



“For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

edit on 16-9-2011 by FoxfilesMulder because: Mistake



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 03:52 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 
Ahhh, I was truly hoping someone would bring this up.


I'll post a link to a study, but in short, the *parable* of Lazarus and the rich man is just that, a parable, and oft taken out of context. If you'll review the immediate context of Luke, you'll find that Jesus is actually preaching against the pharisees, and that this has nothing to do with hell.

For example, we're never told that the rich man is a sinner, or that Lazarus is righteous. We're apparently told, under the "teaching on hell" view, that those in heaven can see and speak to those in hell, and that a drop of water on the tongue could soothe the torments of hellfire.

When you actually study it, you'll find that Lazarus represents the gentiles in their spiritual proverty before Christ, and the rich man the Jews in their spiritual riches. The rich man has five brothers, as did Judah five full-blood brothers (ancestor of the jews in Jerusalem, founder of the Kingdom of Judah in which Jerusalem resides).

The ending is the clincher:

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’


The jews had Moses and the prophets, but rejected the torah's teachings on grace and mercy as compared to legalism, and Abraham foretold that even if one were to rise from the dead (here Christ foretells his own resurrection and ongoing rejection by the jews), they still would not be persuaded.

The chasm mentioned in the parable is the the separation Paul taught on in Romans between the believers and jews, a result of their hearts being hardened.

This is not a teaching on hell, as it falls flat on many fronts - let alone the actual context and content.

Take care. One study on this can be read here.
edit on 9/16/2011 by Praetorius because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 03:57 PM
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reply to post by Praetorius
 

To me, it's simply ludicrous on the face of the idea as well as flying against the Word I read that our Father would inflict eternal and untold suffering on His children for temporal and fleeting sins.
Right, but how does this argue for annihilation?



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 04:02 PM
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reply to post by FoxfilesMulder
 

Instead of a place of blazing fire, it is described in the context as a state of darkness (Job 10:21); instead of a place where shrieks and groans are heard, it is described in the context as a place of silence (Psa. 115:17); instead of representing in any sense pain and suffering, or remorse, the context describes it as a place or condition of forgetfulness (Psa. 88:11, 12). There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, in the grave [sheol] whither thou goest Eccl. 9:10.
Did you copy this from somewhere? Just wondering because if you made this little summery here, then pretty good.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 04:07 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 
Hmmm...by the bible teaching that only the saved get the gift of God, which is eternal life, and that the others will perish, face destruction, die the second death, have both body and soul destroyed?

The bible simply sets out two fairly clear courses - eternal life, or death...not any sort of unending sadistic middle ground.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 04:14 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I did copy that!

The ex-edit options etc are temperamental at best and when you preview your post, for some reason it stuffs all the options up like bolds n colors etc.

All fixed now...


Psalm 139:8—"If I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." [God’s power is unlimited; even over those in the tomb he can and will exert it and bring forth all that are in the graves.--John 5:28.



posted on Sep, 16 2011 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by Praetorius
 

We're apparently told, under the "teaching on hell" view, that those in heaven can see and speak to those in hell, and that a drop of water on the tongue could soothe the torments of hellfire.
Where is your contradictory evidence to dispute any of it?



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