The Confederate Flag: A Disturbing Trend?

Let me just continue on one more point you made that I could not fit in prior:

reply to post by dragonridr

"The South Carolina Nullification Controversy" an armed confrontation was avoided when Congress led by Henry Clay revised the tariff with a compromise bill. This new bill though not great allowed south Carolina to say they won a victory while the north still got taxes. To let you know how far it went Jackson went to congress and asked Congress to enact legislation permitting him to use federal troops to enforce federal laws in the face of nullification. Heres the kicker if this didn't occur Lincoln wouldn't have been able to use force because the constitution allowed a state to seceed.

Putting aside the fact that taxes were of little issue by the 1860's, considering, as I mentioned, that southerners wrote the tariffs law in 1857, why are you refering to the south carolina nullifcation crises that occured more than 30 years prior to the civil war? Why do apologists continue to reference this? You're not doing your argument any justice if you need go back 30 years to explain why these southern states seceeded months before Lincoln assumed office. It doesn't make sense, there is of little corrolation or logic. Let's not forget the pro-southern presidents prior to the civil war that held the whitehouse. Apologists contine to ignore the facts that:

1. During the 1860's the democratic party had split on the issue of slavery.
2. Never mind the coincidence of the fact they seceeded a mere month or so after Lincoln had won the elections, months before he even assumed office.
3. Never mind the fact that the confederedate declaration of grievances, not ordinances, grievances, clearly meantion slavery as the core issue.

You and your fellow sympathizers need to go back to an event 30 years prior to the civil war, ignoring the history lows of tarrifs right before the civil war. Is this what is going to continue to happen in debates with ya'll? You're going to continue folding your arms, insisting slavery was this insignificant issue, insist it was about taxes and whatever else with no historical evidence or direct references from the official confederate government grievances?

And yes, I am well aware of Lincolns change of tune over slavery. He wanted to win the south and this is why he sympathized with many slave owners. But let's just assume that the confederate state officials believed Lincoln on his campaign promise, especially considering that the South still voted in force behind Breckinridge, the direct component to Lincoln, whom lead the southern pro-slavery arm of the democratic party.

Let's not also forget this gem right here that I mentioned before, and that confederate apologists would rather ignore:

The Fugitive Slave act of 1850
www.questia.com...
avalon.law.yale.edu...

But this was all about states rights for the confederacy huh?

And on a last note, regarding secession. This argument of whether it was justified or not is pointless. Secession is very seldomly that straight forward as history shows. If states held the right to simply seceed whenever they felt some grievance, they would have done so a long time ago. This country did not come to being a Union based merely on the voluntary choices of the states, this was the same case even before the civil war. This is the same case for Canada, the same case for Australia. Secession is something in history that has proven time and time again to be a mission. If the Southern states want to seceed again, you have to work for it. Walk the talk.

reply to post by xEphon


I haven't read any other comments here because frankly, this post really upset me. I live in the south and in no way, fashion, or form do I consider the Confederate Flag a symbol of racism. Most people here are on the same level. It's organizations like the KKK that give the Confederate Flag a relationship to racism. I wasn't in the Civil War, but i'm pretty sure that the flag that the Confederacy fought for, wasn't fought for in the name of race. Also, if you don't know what the actual history of the flag's true meaning, maybe research it first before pointing fingers (respectfully.) I'm a southern man that will forever fly the flag with pride to honor those we lost in the war. Getting to my point, this upset me because it's like associating middle-easterners with terrorism.

Originally posted by Dr Expired
As a person born outside the USA, can I make this observation without causing controversy?

The American civil war killed millions, the loser the south ....was forced to join the USA?

So why shouldn't there be a fair proportion of Southerners who see themselves living in occupied territory?

Like the Irish in Ireland, the Palestinians in Israel, ?
Fly the flag you belong to in your heart?
We have foreign people living in the west who still cheer their home counrty over their new country, so why not the South?....A land taken by gunpoint?

There are. I live in the 10th Military District, Federally Occupied Territories, US Occupation Government.

For the sake of argument let's say the Civil War was fought over slavery. Only 25% of Southern, white males (the highest figure I could find) owned slaves. What were the other 75% fighting for? This is the real issue here and what is at the heart of a conspiracy 150 years in the making. What conspiracy is that you might ask?

Look at America today, few would argue that our Nation is not a mess. Endless wars, endless debt, a people divided perhaps more deeply that we were in 1860. The Civil War was the beginnings of the military-industrial complex with it's inevitable war debts, absolute government controls and loss of individual freedoms. It was the beginnings of the income tax, the draft, the loss of habeas corpus, suppression of the press and free speech, government spying.
Today, the very same issues are at stake, the economy of war -vs- basic American values and Constitutional protections and limitations on government.

Back to the conspiracy here - Our educational system glibly assigns blame for the Civil war on slavery and rarely deals with it in any depth. When was the last time you saw a major motion picture about the Civil War? Sherman's march to the sea caused far more damage than 9/11 and spread a 40 mile wide swath of destruction from Atlanta to Savannah in Georgia and from there to Columbia, South Carolina. 2 major cities burned to the ground, thousands of farms laid waste and tens of thousands of civilians left homeless. The last movie to even touch upon the subject was Gone with the Wind in 1936. The Shenandoah valley in Virginia was devastated the same way in 1864 by Phil Sheridan's army as were parts of Mississippi and Alabama.

There is an obvious pattern of avoidance of the issue because to deal with it in any depth would quickly dispel the notion that most Southerners were fighting to preserve slavery. The war that killed and wounded more Americans than every other war we have fought put together is being collectively ignored and over-simplified. Not that movies about it could not make immense profits, book sales on the subject are a huge part of the market proving that the interest is there. But the popular media avoids it like the plague.

The economy of the South and the wealth of the ruling aristocrats was based on slave labor, this is true. It was the main reason for secession and just like the war in Iraq was decided by a few in the ruling clique. Yet we ALL have paid the price as Americans to satisfy the greed and avarice of a wealthy few. The other 75 - 99% of us fought because we either had to or felt it was our patriotic duty to do so.

To those who despise the rebel flag because you believe it represents racism I applaud you. You care enough about ending racism to take on die hard rednecks over the meaning of a 150-year old flag. Racism is ugly, ignorant and a poor reflection upon those who have it in their hearts.
But I too am a die-hard redneck. My ancestors who did not own slaves fought for the Confederacy. You can bet they weren't fighting to save the fortunes of the rich. They walked away from their farms and businesses for one reason alone - because the North invaded the South.

I will not deny that slavery was an important factor in the Civil war, but it is more than unfortunate that the educational system and the media have worked tirelessly to make people believe that it was the sole reason or the justification for why the South resisted.
I have strong doubts that they teach in schools that not only whites owned slaves but so did many free blacks as well as Native Americans. Not only that, but slavery was common among Native American tribes long before white man every landed on these shores.
Did they also teach you that the first person killed by John Brown in his Missouri raid was a non slave-holding white man? Or that he was financed by well-to-do Northern abolitionists?
How about why they never brought Jefferson Davis to trial after the war for treason because they knew he could not be convicted?

For 25% the Confederate flag meant the right to own slaves, for the other 75% it meant trying to save their homes from an invading horde from the North that was heavily populated with recent immigrants from Germany and Ireland.
When and if a time comes when an army marches down your street will you have the courage to fight or will you simply allow them to ruin your town at will, burning, looting and molesting your wives and daughters? We cannot judge the morality of those who came before us without being put in their position.

I honor and respect both flags and hold both sets of ideals within my heart. The blood of a half million of our ancestors have sanctified the best ideals of why they fought, irrespective of their color and regardless of whether they came from the North or the South.

Originally posted by RelentlessLurker

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by Xeven


your the first 'native american' ive ever seen that actually uses the term 'native american'.

most of us just say indian.

If I had said Indian, there would have been people commenting on that as well telling me it is wrong to say Indian. And I did mention that I was part Shawnee and the Native American stereotyping was what I was referring to.

I guess I could have said Indigenous.

I love the confederate flag and own 2 of them. The flag is a clear symbol of freedom, not racism. Get over yourselves.

Originally posted by TechniXcality
The confederate flag is not racist, it is the person that holds the flag that represents the meaning

edit on 17-9-2011 by TechniXcality because: (no reason given)

OK, cool. get yourself a swastika flag, find a synagogue, stand in front, and start waving it. Just before you get knocked the # out and arrested, tell them what you just told us

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by DRAZIW

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
[
The civil war was at core about slavery.

Ya, they wanted slavery. BUT...more important than slavery was that they wanted to do whatever they wanted to do without interference. That was the key.

The interference was in the fact they were states holding slaves while in a nation that had abolished slavery. So they had to make their own country to do what they wanted. They did not secede over tobacco or cotton. They did not secede over whiskey. They did not secede over any other issue than the right to have slaves.

But, they had agreed to sign a national constitution that gave certain rights to the federal government, and whatever was not explicitly written into that constitution was supposed to be the exclusive province of the individual states. That is what the issue was really about. Slavery was just the particular issue at hand that was being used to "test" that principle of non-interference guaranteed by the US Constitution.

reply to post by sixswornsermon


Seriously guys you are embarrassing yourselves. If you took the time to read some original historical source materials you'd clearly see the war had everything to do about slavery. Just about every political speech and important newspaper op-ed of the time dealt with the slavery issue. The Lincoln -Douglas debates had everything to do with slavery, as was the election of 1860. There are countless letters and speeches that exist from the era that are on record and highlight in detail how slavery was the burning issue of the day - one that created violent mobs and angry rhetoric across the country.

The argument that the civil war was about states rights is specious and seems to me to be a way for southern expression to try and "tidy up" and glorify the giant moral mess slavery created. It was always about slavery and the economics and political implications (states rights) that surrounded it.

Originally posted by xEphon
I'm curious to see if this has been happening in the places you live too. I've noticed this here in PA. I hear many people claim it isn't about racism and frankly that's just BS. The confederate flag always has and always will be about racism.

The Inside Geek

Over the past few months I’ve noticed a disturbing trend developing here in my little corner of Northeast Pennsylvania. It comes in the form of a rectangular piece of cloth, crisscrossed by two blue bars, thirteen stars, and has found its way onto all sorts of things. The confederate flag, or rebel flag, has been a sensitive topic ever since the civil rights movement of the 1960s when the counter movement used it as a symbol of opposition, most notably the Ku Klux Klan.

The original stars and bars was NOT about racism, it was a battle flag. The Civil War in itself the way it went down was NOT about racism either...guess you'd have to be from the south to know that. Don't believe everything you read. In the mid to late 1800's it was all about money. Ending slavery didn't get rid of racism...they are 2 entirely different things altogether......maybe you should educate yourself.

Originally posted by dragonseeker

Originally posted by TechniXcality
The confederate flag is not racist, it is the person that holds the flag that represents the meaning

edit on 17-9-2011 by TechniXcality because: (no reason given)

OK, cool. get yourself a swastika flag, find a synagogue, stand in front, and start waving it. Just before you get knocked the # out and arrested, tell them what you just told us

edit on 18-9-2011 by dragonseeker because: (no reason given)

Why? he's right...it is the person. I could grab you throw you in a bed sheet and drop you off in Harlem..you have the attitude for it.

Troll much?

Ignorance runs rampant in this thread.


1. comparing the Confederate flag to Nazi Germany's Swastika is offensinve and extremely ignorant.
The Swastika was tainted because hitler ran a HUGE campaign that highlighted it's use. He then tried to exterminate an entire race of people, and conquer the world.
That has NOTHING to do with the US Civil War, Slavery, States rights or the confederate flag.
That's reaching for straws and it is extremely offensive to try and trivialize the horrors of Hitler by comparing them to the Southern States stance during the CW.

2. If you believe that the US civil War was started and fought because of slavery, your are misinformed.
It was a footnote, and only addressed due to political reasons.
It was a spin. Lincoln did not care whether they were freed or not. His Anti-Slavery stance was adopted purely due to politics, not because he believed.
If Lincoln thought the issue wouldnt matter.. he wouldn't have addressed it at all.


one shoe does not fit all here. If more people took emotion out of the equation, and looked at the power scale and money.. who profited, you'd see the facts.

Righteousness almost NEVER enters the facts when discussing politics or war.
It's only a smokescreen for the masses.
wake up.

Racism is kept alive today, on purpose.... to keep the masses in-fighting while the foxes raid the hen's nests.
It's a ruse, a psy-op,..a trick.
Do not fall for it.




Learn your history. Then learn FROM it.
Ignorance is no excuse.

reply to post by TravisT

That's exactly what you implied, by what you wrote. "And I bet those truckers are southerners too. Hey I bet they're from the south". I know it was a sarcastic rant, but there is no denying that is exactly what you were implying, which I was "supposedly" saying.

Please, I'm a friggin comedian

I had to take these two out of order, because they sort of run together in my mind. How can you be a comedian, and at the same time not understand sarcasm? Isn't that sort of like a mechanic that doesn't know what a wrench is?

I have to say, though, that I am laughing a little.... as I shake my head in disbelief.

Truckers come from all 50 states... duh! I ever said they didn't. All I said was that one example of the racism in New England is the late-night chatter, again, in New England accents, in Bordentown, PA on the CB. And I am not the only one who hears it. From coast to coast, across every major Interstate, in every dock in every town, truckers know well that area. Try asking some about it sometime instead of just assuming you know better than anyone else.

Oh wow, and Gogu on page 11 agrees with me...

There is a difference between an actual reoccurring event and an opinion. The former serves as verification, the latter as backup.

So you're saying you don't understand racism, by saying you think most of the north is more racist than the south, but then say you understand it when you hear it, but not when the confederate flag is involved? Which is it, do you understand it, or don't you?

Since you seemed to miss reading what I said the first time I said it, here's your chance for vindication:

Originally posted by TheRedneck
My whole point is that I do not understand racism. There is no reason in this day and age for one person to hate or even disparage another person simply because of the color of their skin. That said, I do think I know racism when I hear it... when someone is broadcasting "[censored*]" every few minutes, it sounds like racism to me. I mean, I come from a culture in which that 'N-word' is, well was until recently, a part of the vocabulary, and have never heard it used as harshly or as frequently as I have in New England. And again, the people using it are speaking in northern accents.

Now, since you seem to have this comprehension problem, I said I do not understand why racism exists. If you do, I would really appreciate it if you would enlighten the rest of us poor souls; some of us find the concept somehow incomprehensible.

I do know when someone is being racist, quite a different thing. I know when someone is being denigrated due to their culture. I know when someone is denied the same freedoms of choice as others due to the color of their skin. I recognize it, but I do not understand it.

Got that?

Ha, I don't get out much? Please, I'm a friggin comedian, and I have to travel 7-8 months a year, and have to go to all parts of the United States/parts of the world. I get out plenty, and I see different cultures, people, towns, cities, states, etc etc. Maybe you need to get out of the south, and actual interact with people, instead of listen in to CB radio chat that means absolutist nothing.

As an OTR driver for 8 years, I have been around plenty. I have strolled the streets of Brooklyn and Queens, shopped on Indian reservations in the Southwest, smelled the stench of Chicago, admired the Strip in Vegas, breathed the salt air of Florida, enjoyed Cajun cooking in Louisiana, wondered at the Painted Desert and the salt flats in Utah, and admired the big 'Hollywood' sign from downtown L.A.

And none, absolutely none of that, not a single experience, has any bearing whatsoever on how I perceive the Confederate Flag.

We live in a country that is unique... each region has its own culture and customs. Each area is different from all the others. Yet, we are all Americans. How do we manage to live together? For many years, it was simple: we didn't get out much. People commonly were born, lived their lives, and died never traveling more than 50-100 miles from their birthplace. Those who did, did so at great cost and thus had cause to try to be a part of the community in which they found themselves.

Today, this is not the case. We roam freely across the land, sometimes at a whim. It is nothing for me to decide that I want to drive 300 miles for a weekend holiday. Others may fly 2000 miles without a second thought. As such, we find ourselves quite often in the midst of different cultures with unfamiliar ways.

(continued)

reply to post by TravisT
(continued)

I know how I handle such situations. While I cannot change who I am, I can respect the differences between myself and my hosts. If I am sitting in a New York diner, I don't ask for grits. If I am sitting in a Cajun eatery, I don't make crude comments about that thing on my plate that looks like it might still be breathing... I eat it. I don't make crude comments about Indian Chieftains in native dress having a bird on their heads... I ask them about the headdress and the history and meanings behind it. In New Mexico, I don't gripe about their use of Spanish... I simply try to communicate the best I can.

It's called 'respect'.

You, on the other hand, see a culture that is apparently different from yours and demonize one of their most deeply-held symbols. Make no mistake, the Confederate flag was not created in the north. It is our flag, and for you to assign a meaning to it, especially one so heinous as a racist symbol, is bigoted and intolerant in the extreme.

You, sir, are a racist. I am sorry I had to say it out loud; I had hoped I could get my meaning across in a more diplomatic manner, perhaps even get you to realize it yourself, but apparently that is impossible. It is rooted too deeply.

So please, keep your racist attitude between yourself and those who agree with you. Out of respect, I will not demand you change it, but it has no place in polite society.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by BooKrackers

Originally posted by dragonseeker

Originally posted by TechniXcality
The confederate flag is not racist, it is the person that holds the flag that represents the meaning

edit on 17-9-2011 by TechniXcality because: (no reason given)

OK, cool. get yourself a swastika flag, find a synagogue, stand in front, and start waving it. Just before you get knocked the # out and arrested, tell them what you just told us

edit on 18-9-2011 by dragonseeker because: (no reason given)

Why? he's right...it is the person. I could grab you throw you in a bed sheet and drop you off in Harlem..you have the attitude for it.

Troll much?

edit on 18-9-2011 by BooKrackers because: (no reason given)

not a troll at all..and since I'm black, if you did that, I'd get some funny stares but that's about it my point is, the confederate flag has come to symbolize the days of slavery, much like the swastika has come to symbolize the nazi's even though the symbol itself is a rune, thousands of years old, that has no racist connotation attached to it at all. it gained that connotation because of the nazi's misuse of it. same with the confederate flag. it may NOT have been, when it was created, meant to symbolize racism and slavery. BUT(as someone earlier in the thread showed) the confederacy WAS about the ability to own slaves, NOT just taxation and state's rights. if you stand for slavery, even if not every person involved agreed with or participated in it, if you stand for it, and the confederate flag is your symbol, than IT stands for those things as well.

Originally posted by mrsoul2009
reply to post by sixswornsermon

 

Seriously guys you are embarrassing yourselves. If you took the time to read some original historical source materials you'd clearly see the war had everything to do about slavery. Just about every political speech and important newspaper op-ed of the time dealt with the slavery issue. The Lincoln -Douglas debates had everything to do with slavery, as was the election of 1860. There are countless letters and speeches that exist from the era that are on record and highlight in detail how slavery was the burning issue of the day - one that created violent mobs and angry rhetoric across the country.

The argument that the civil war was about states rights is specious and seems to me to be a way for southern expression to try and "tidy up" and glorify the giant moral mess slavery created. It was always about slavery and the economics and political implications (states rights) that surrounded it.

Of course it was about slavery this was the south's lively hood. However that wasnt by far the only reason the lead up to the civil war had been brewing for at least two generations prior. The divide between the north and the south was more than just slavery. It was over taxes goods and commerce If the south didn't buy so much of their stuff from europe the north would never have worried about slavery. This was a punishment they were pushing on the south nothing more. The north didn't want freed slaves running around any more than the south did. This punishment didn't stop there it went in to taxes property and excise tax. It didn't effect the north most of their homes were small who had large homes plantations of course. Then the excise tax which disproportionately effected the south causing prices to rise.

Now lets look at things from a southern view-point for a sec. They are the ones funding the government with taxes which are way too high. And as a southerner you realize the reason behind this is protection for the industries in the north. Add to this a concerted effort by the government you support with taxes to do away with your major source of income.Then let us not forget the southern states were much more independent than the north and really hated the government controlling there lives. And that is how you get people mad enough to leave the union. If the taxes wouldn't have been there no civil war if the slave issue wasn't there no civil war. No war is fought over just 1 issue as i try to keep pointing out. Our education system tries to put it in a nice box it was because of slavery well no that's not the only reason. Ever wonder why Napoleon was so interested in the south? Was the french for slavery? It was the trade goods they suddenly got real cheap in the south without those taxes and they were buying like crazy. You cant just lok at one thing and say hey thats what caused it it never is.

Its about LYNARD SKYNARD,ALLMAN BROTHERS,CREEDENCE CLEAR WATER REVIVAL MOLLEY HATCHET, ZZ TOP, BLACKFOOT,GEORGIA SATELLITES, BUCK CHERRY,38 SPECIAL, KENTUCKY HEAD HUNTERS,STEVE EARL, STEVIE RAY VAUGHAN, and the list goes on and on...its all about ROCK N ROLL

reply to post by WarminIndy


just say whatever you want without fear of reprisal.

at the very least "native american" is too many syllables.

i live in indian territory, where indians are the majority. and i can assure you that at least here, they all refer to themselves as indian. and they usually chuckle whenever they can tell somebody is saying "native american" as to not offend them.

im not trying to pick on you.

im just trying to illustrate the fallacy of political correctness.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by TravisT
(continued)

You, sir, are a racist. I am sorry I had to say it out loud; I had hoped I could get my meaning across in a more diplomatic manner, perhaps even get you to realize it yourself, but apparently that is impossible. It is rooted too deeply.

So please, keep your racist attitude between yourself and those who agree with you. Out of respect, I will not demand you change it, but it has no place in polite society.

TheRedneck

I thought I've seen it all on here, I really have. A white "redneck" calling someone a racist, because they cant admit that the flag they like, is now viewed as a racist symbol. Tell me, sir, who am I racist against, now: Is it my white father or white mother...or maybe it's my black wife? (when all hope is lost, and you can't back up what you say, use the "racist card")

Like I already said, there is a reason why the term ##snip## all carry negative connotations to this day, and how their origins weren't created for insults. But guess what, you say that now, and you are being insulting: bottom line! Same with your flag, and like I already said, you may not be racist, but the symbol you carry is, regardless if you like it or not, the connotation of the symbol has changed. And there is nothing you can do to change that. Sorry......

You call me a racist, cause you're too thickheaded to admit your flag is viewed as a racist symbol? I guess I was right all along, you are one of the most ignorant people I have ever come across.That's all I was looking for, was for you to admit it is now viewed as a racist symbol, but you can't even admit it, to the part where you keep preaching your psychobabble about the "origins" of the flag, and what it really represents. Nobody cares about the origins of the flag, just as much as nobody is going to care about the origins of the word ##snip## if I shout it at someone. All you're doing, is perpetuating racism, by flying your flag high, whether you like it or not. Be proud of it, cause it's a symbol of your ignorance.