The Confederate Flag: A Disturbing Trend?

reply to post by felonius


You made me laugh it reminded me of a t shirt i saw once. American by birth - Southern by the grace of God. I have to admit since i moved to the south southerners are very proud of there heritage. I think this is something norherners dont understand. Oh and they also don't git grits and sweet tea either.

Originally posted by reeferman
reply to post by xEphon

 

the Confederate Flag is NOT about racism..

its about FREEDOM....

I am a black woman and I live in the south. ITA reeferman. The problem is that these groups have taken that flag to be a symbol for their hatred of people that don't look like them. I have friends that have confederate flags/tags, etc. on their cars and in their homes. I know for a fact that I could depend on some of these friends more than my own siblings. People that have been there for me and my family many times over the course of 20+ years. One that my children call mee maw. So yes, there are people that choose to fly that flag in the name of racial superiority and hate. I just think that more often than not people look at it a symbol of family bonds and freedom. My best friend (also black) and I were walking into the mall. There was this guy that looked like he was a straight up skinhead. He had the sleeveless shirt and the arms full of tats. His shirt had a big ole rebel flag on the back.
He was walking toward the door at the same time we were. This guy sped up so he could hold the door open for us. We thanked him as we walked by and my friend looked at me and said, don't you just love the south. I thought, yes I do love the south. Stuff like that happens all of the time. I don't always notice it b/c that is just way people are around here. I only remember that day b/c my friend said something. Besides, here in the south a gentleman always holds the door open for a lady.

At the end of the day, I truly believe that any American has the right to fly the confederate flag if they choose to, no matter the reason.

reply to post by kismet815


I loved your post. I mulling over similar thoughts. I am not from the south, nor do I now live in the south but my father was from arkansas and I spent every summer growing up there and have visited many times since.

There is such a difference in how people respond to each other there compared to where I live, near :Chicago in Illinois. Everyone waves and smiles as you even if you are driving by them as opposed to walking.

And there is a sense of general over all respect for others, while of course there will be a few bad apples in any bunch the majority of people I have come across fit my description.

One of the most amazing experiences I had there I know I will never see happen here, it would be inconceivable here. When my grandparents died the funeral procession had to cross railroad tracks on the way to the cemetery. As the line of cars approached the tracks a train was also approaching. Then engineer stopped the train for us to pass got out of the engineer's compartment and then removed his hat and stood at the front of the train until we passed, I'll never forget that,

I can understand why the confederate flag is for many considered an emblem of their heritage as opposed to a symbol of hatred,

reply to post by TravisT

I didn't say all truckers are from the south, you did.

Excuse me? When did anyone say such a thing? All I said was that during my time in New England, I heard more racist comments than I ever have have in the South, and gave a location where they seem to be especially prevalent.

And another poster, watcher3339 on page 13, agrees with me.

Your point, was to say you understand racism, by going to one place in PA, and turning on a CB.

Earth to TravisT!
Earth to TravisT!
Come in TravisT!

My whole point is that I do not understand racism. There is no reason in this day and age for one person to hate or even disparage another person simply because of the color of their skin. That said, I do think I know racism when I hear it... when someone is broadcasting "[censored*]" every few minutes, it sounds like racism to me. I mean, I come from a culture in which that 'N-word' is, well was until recently, a part of the vocabulary, and have never heard it used as harshly or as frequently as I have in New England. And again, the people using it are speaking in northern accents.

The sad fact, whether you wish to admit it or not, is that at night in a truck stop, the anonymity provided by that little CB radio translates to people saying what they wish they could say openly in public. And believe it or not, truckers still use CB radios; cell phones don't let you talk to the guy in front of you to find out why traffic has stopped or to the guy going the opposite direction to find out whether the coops are open or not ahead. CB's do.

You either don't get out much, or you are blind to what is happening around you. I suggest you try opening your eyes. You will not like what you see.

My point, was you just over generalized an entire region, based on going to a particular isolated place, and turning on a device that not too many people use.

No I didn't, but even if I had... exactly how is that different from generalizing an entire culture based on a flag you obviously do not understand?

TheRedneck

*My apologies for the self-censoring, but that kind of filth does not belong in any open discussion.

reply to post by Southern Guardian

The civil war was at core about slavery, taxation had little to nothing to do with it.

Oh, well, that settles it then. I mean, you have a link, so how can I argue with that?

Yeah, I can. especially since your source is the Op-Ed section of the Washington Post. Especially when the author of that article, James W. Loewen, was raised in Decatur, IL. He went to school at Carlton College in Northfield, MN and got his PhD at Harvard in Cambridge, MA. Oh, wait... he did spend one semester in Mississippi! Well, I guess that makes him much more knowledgeable about the Southern attitudes toward the war than those who lived there only their entire lives.



Might I suggest sources who actually know what they are talking about? Or is that too difficult?

TheRedneck

I have read a lot of books and still don't know much, but I do know this. The underground railroad went to Canada. It did not stop in the North for a reason; the North was not as anti-slavery as we want to believe. Laws in the North required runaways to be held and return to their owners. In some parts of the underground railroad if a runaway tried to stay in the North and not go to Canada they would be shot to protect others and the locations of safe houses, etc..

The North did not go war for slavery any more than the South went to war for Slavery. The North played Dixie in honor of the South when the North won. Now we all curse the Southern flag because of slavery. Slavery is so evil and vile it causes us to hate things that were never intended to represent slavery, but have somehow come to be misrepresented as a symbol of slavery by all. Even I that knows better, has a hard time dealing with it

Read about the Bill of Rights and specifically the 10th Amendment. Without the 10th, there would have been no 1st, 2nd, 3rd... Amendments, there would have been no United States of America. This country almost was never borne because of states right, fought a civil war over states rights, will most likely do so again, and will evently go the way of Rome because we don't respect states rights.

Before the civil war we called ourselves "These United States of America" after the war we called ourselves "The United States of America". Historians spin this as a sign of strengthing of our union as much as they spin the Confedrate flag as symbol of slavery. They are both wounds that will never heal.

The Supreme Court has never upheld the 10th Amendment, leaving the entire Bill Rights subject to the Supreme Court's dismissal. For me the Supreme Court's consistent dismissal of the 10th Amendment is the scariest thing this country has ever allowed to continue.

It is because of slavery one can not fly the Confedrate Flag in suport of States rights. It's a lost battle.

Ahh, the confederate stripes.

How many 'civil wars' have erupted since the big one because of it?

I am Southern by the grace of God and I can tell you we are as divided on it here as the north and south were then.

Some see it as a symbol of racism, and it is that.

Some see it as a symbol of rebellion, and it is that too.

Some see it as a symbol of pride and heritage, and that is true for them.

Some see it as oppression and brutality, and guess what? It is that too.

But, for all you PC'ers out there, and I am sure one of them, think for a second about what words like 'diversity' and 'tolerance' mean, and set aside your judgements.

The South will take care of itself, always has, always will.

And the confederate flag is a million different things to those who fly it.

Take each person who does so as a unique individual and weigh their hearts on their own merits, as you profess to encourage.

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by Xeven
I want to clarify that I have not read anything other than the first post on this thread. I grew up in the south. At some point it appeared the confederate flag was a cool thing to display and maybe wear as a bandana on the head in my youth. Later in life i realized the significance of it being racist in some minds. If I offended anyone or I Hope it it not effect them to greatly.

'I post this to let some of you know that youth may display the flag and not really "get" all that it means. So I ask that you at least give people the benifit of the doubt when seeing such a display of the confederate flag. Not all young folks like me relized all that it could mean to everyone viewing it.


I of course would no longer display such things as not to cause anyone issues though I reserve the right to be stupid.

X

I grew up in the North but my my maternal grandmother and my dad's family were all from the South. I spent 9 years in North Carolina being told that as a Northerner I was not welcome because I was a Northerner. I had ancestors on both sides of the war. None of my family there displays the flag. My brother-in-law had a Confederate flag that he thought was cool because he was all into the rebellion against authority. That brother-in-law was from Indiana and all of his ancestors were from the North.

This same family he was from had stereotypical images of Native American women in the bikini type things they believed them to wear. When I commented to my father-in-law that I was also part Shawnee, they were offended by that. When I commented on the Easter ham that it was not kosher they were offended by that. I am also part Jewish. It seems that no matter what I am, to them I am offensive. I am not a Jewish person by faith and the unkosher Easter ham was said in a very joking manner. These people believed in the stereotyping of people they knew nothing about. I am no longer married to that husband from that family but they still hold their ideas of stereotyping. This family from the North was actually more hillbilly than my grandparents. And I can say hillbilly because my family are hillbillies. In doing that ex-husband's genealogy, I found no person in his family that were in the Civil War.

I do not fill my house with Native American things such as dream catchers and those things like wolves heads on dream catchers because to me, they are part of being Native American, of which I am only a part. I want to respect Native Americans by not displaying stereotypical things about them.

So when we see things that are symbolic, we have to ask ourselves if it speaks against the dignity of another human being. The Confederate flag does speak against the dignity of the humanity of the black slaves that did not come here on their own and were forced to be slaves. And that indignity is what a lot of young men died to end and a lot of young men died to preserve.

your the first 'native american' ive ever seen that actually uses the term 'native american'.

most of us just say indian.

Originally posted by xEphon
I'm curious to see if this has been happening in the places you live too. I've noticed this here in PA. I hear many people claim it isn't about racism and frankly that's just BS. The confederate flag always has and always will be about racism.

Well of course that's what you think, because you grew up being told that over and over and over again. Maybe one day you will actually study what really happened.

Originally posted by watcher3339

Originally posted by felonius
reply to post by watcher3339

 

And you should do as you will.

You have your convictions. Others have their own.

A big part of my point though is that our convictions, mine and yours, might actually be the same. In this very thread where people are fighting over the flag, how many of us believe that the Federal Government has stepped outside the bounds of its constiutionally given bounds? I suspect a lot of us have. But here we all are, bickering, because the symbol itself means too many things to too many different people. I suggest 10th ammendment Tshirts for everyone!

I can get behind this....

ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!!!!!

reply to post by xEphon


It amazes me at how much reaction there can be to a retired and defeated flag. Proving what? It is a symbol of a past just as the crown is. Odd at how many women secretly want to be a queen and wear a crown.beauty pageants. It is better to be with the moment in time than living in the past.

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by felonius

 

You made me laugh it reminded me of a t shirt i saw once. American by birth - Southern by the grace of God. I have to admit since i moved to the south southerners are very proud of there heritage. I think this is something norherners dont understand. Oh and they also don't git grits and sweet tea either.

SOOOOO,

have you become one of "us" yet LOL?

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Excuse me? When did anyone say such a thing? All I said was that during my time in New England, I heard more racist comments than I ever have have in the South, and gave a location where they seem to be especially prevalent.

That's exactly what you implied, by what you wrote. "And I bet those truckers are southerners too. Hey I bet they're from the south". I know it was a sarcastic rant, but there is no denying that is exactly what you were implying, which I was "supposedly" saying.

And another poster, watcher3339 on page 13, agrees with me.

Oh wow, and Gogu on page 11 agrees with me, that comparing a CB radio to "all northerners are racists" is kind of exaggerating it a bit.

Earth to TravisT!
Earth to TravisT!
Come in TravisT!

My whole point is that I do not understand racism. There is no reason in this day and age for one person to hate or even disparage another person simply because of the color of their skin. That said, I do think I know racism when I hear it... when someone is broadcasting "[censored*]" every few minutes, it sounds like racism to me. I mean, I come from a culture in which that 'N-word' is, well was until recently, a part of the vocabulary, and have never heard it used as harshly or as frequently as I have in New England. And again, the people using it are speaking in northern accents.

So you're saying you don't understand racism, by saying you think most of the north is more racist than the south, but then say you understand it when you hear it, but not when the confederate flag is involved? Which is it, do you understand it, or don't you?

Earth to Redneck!
Earth to Redneck!
Come in Redneck!!!!!!

Have you forgotten what you have even said? You said how sure you were about how northern states are more racist than the south, because the south "got over it", but now you're trying to sell it that you have no understanding of racism? If your point was that you don't understand racism, then let me just say, without a doubt, you missed that point completely, by acting like you understand it. Even if you "think you understand it when you hear it", as you're trying to sell...

The sad fact, whether you wish to admit it or not, is that at night in a truck stop, the anonymity provided by that little CB radio translates to people saying what they wish they could say openly in public. And believe it or not, truckers still use CB radios; cell phones don't let you talk to the guy in front of you to find out why traffic has stopped or to the guy going the opposite direction to find out whether the coops are open or not ahead. CB's do.

Again, what are you talking about? My point was that truckers are the ones who primarily use CB radios, and now you're acting like I never said that, and are also acting like every trucker is from the north? Do I have to do the stupid "earth to" comment again? I already said using the CB example, to imply that the north is racist, because of what you hear truckers say on a CB radio is ridiculous. How you can even pinpoint were truckers live is beyond me, which is why the CB example is moot. Truckers are everywhere at all times, and they don't represent any "side", as there can be just as many equal truckers in the south, as there are in the north. So truckers are racist. Ok, I already said that. What's your point about how that makes your decision on how you know the north is more racist? It makes no sense!

You either don't get out much, or you are blind to what is happening around you. I suggest you try opening your eyes. You will not like what you see.

Ha, I don't get out much? Please, I'm a friggin comedian, and I have to travel 7-8 months a year, and have to go to all parts of the United States/parts of the world. I get out plenty, and I see different cultures, people, towns, cities, states, etc etc. Maybe you need to get out of the south, and actual interact with people, instead of listen in to CB radio chat that means absolutist nothing.

No I didn't, but even if I had... exactly how is that different from generalizing an entire culture based on a flag you obviously do not understand?

I actually do know the history of it, but like I've explained to you in detail already, it doesn't matter if the flag wasn't exactly about racism in the beginning(like the swastika), the point is, it is now. I get you like it, but your denial in that it represent a part of racism is BEYOND ignorant. Hell, wear a swastika, wear the confederate flag, but to deny the fact that it has racist ties, isn't just ignorant, it is stupid. Do it, in fact, please wear it even more proudly, but just know how ignorant you look now, just like some stupid idiot who wears a swastika because he likes the original meaning of the symbol

Originally posted by sixswornsermon
reply to post by reeferman

 

You get a star.

The real reason behind the civil war was states rights, but good luck getting that information from your local brainwashing institu - I mean school.

My personal stance is that slavery and racism are both abhorrent. Yes, there is a knee jerk tendency to connect the Confederate flag with racism, but you have to understand the real story.

Bull#. It was about slavery. The South thought that the Republican party would take away their "right" to enslave another human being(personally I think the South should of been wiped out so the stain of slavery would be utterly eliminated but I digress). They knew the Republican Party would eventually move against slavery because the German American community strongly supported the Republican party for the purpose of eliminating slavery. The South misjudged Lincoln(Lincoln had no intention to outlaw slavery and it is doubtful he would of won re-election without the Civil War). Sure states rights played a role in the Civil War; the South wanted to continue with barbarism, pure savagery. It would of been no different if the South wanted to Secede over the Southern institution of incest or cannibalism. Either way the sheer differences in morality between the North and South would of lead to conflict sooner or later. The South was just too evil and vile to be allowed to live and as such the slave holding South was razed to the ground as it deserved to be.
-----
As per the OP, any Northerner who raises the Southern flag is a traitor. End of story, good-bye.

Originally posted by watcher3339
reply to post by MaryStillToe

 

While my previous responses will make it clear that I agree with you that there is racism up North and the Confederate Flag represents racism when displayed in the north, I don't think it is accurate to suggest that the people in the north who are enamored of it are bitter because without the civil war and the freeing of slaves they would have been wealthy. The people who were wealthy enough to own slaves in the south have wealthy descendents today.
The people who are poor today were not very likely to have had plantation owning great grandparents.

Yes,most of them were not wealthy and still aren't wealthy today. They were poor and illiterate and the wealthy southerners offered them comfort in the idea that at least they weren't lowest rung on the ladder. Hating and abusing slaves and native americans gave them some kind of dignity. They were men not boys.

Sadly enough, they were and still are mostly very ignorant people. They don't realize the rich need someone to abuse to stay on top and they don't give a crap if you are white, black, indian, or any other ethnicity. It is only what is most convenient at a particular point in time.

Speaking of Hate & Racial and Extremism Flags


Hate flags around the World !!


Political Flags of Extremism - Part 1 (a-n)
(Including Hate Groups, Far-Right, and Ultra-Nationalists)
www.loeser.us...

Political Flags of Extremism - Part 2 (n-z)
(Including Hate Groups, Far-Right, and Ultra-Nationalists)
www.loeser.us...

this thread is such a failure.

nobody alive today was alive then, therefore anybody offended by an event that happened 150+ years ago needs to take a good long look in the mirror and get a grip on reality.


we have real problems to deal with. stop feeling sorry for yourself. you dont deserve it.

the truth is that even the slaves back then had more freedoms than you and i have today in many ways, and its not getting any better. im pretty sure their governments weren't sticking there hands down there pants, or electrocuting them with tasers, or storming their houses with machine guns for growing a plant. how about privacy? even as slaves im pretty sure there wasnt some government official intruding on every facet of their life. they didnt have to deal with a government that adds things to their drinking water, or screw with their weather to the point where they dont know which disasters are man made and which ones arent.

if slavery is such a bad thing why dont you do something about the current slave status that your in?

i dont see all of you on as big a crusade to stop the devaluing of your wealth? wheres all the anger towards our current slave masters?

is it because no one 'group' is singled out? give me a break...

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

Ok time for a history lesson

History lesson? From your personal intepretation of it presume? Given that you provided absolutely zero sources from that post of yours?

first lets start with the states declarations as you called them this is incorrect by the way but the web site you quoted is being selective on what they show you. First there called Ordinance of Nullification this is how a state secedes from the union. Second Here is what georgia said here is there real document .

The website I referenced was being selective you say? And yet this is exactly what you were doing. The ordinances were mere announcements of the confederate states intent to seceed, they were not declarations of grievances. Within the Georgia declaration of secession itself, slavery was mentioned more than 20 times. 8 times in the first paragraph.

Go to this website, it states the exact Georgia ordinance you referenced prior:
www.civil-war.net...

When you click next to ordinance, it will show you the declaration. None of the state ordinances mention any specific issue because this was not their purpose, none of them mention anything about slavery, taxes or tariffs. That was left up to the official state declarations and since we're discussing the reasons for why the confederate states declared independence, the ordinance are pointless to reference because they were mere announcements of secession, nothing more.

Your reading revisionist history again slavery was one of the causes but in reality the smallest one. The major cause was taxes Lincoln had all ready stated he wasnt going to ban slavery.

Firstly, in virtually all the state declarations, slavery is mentioned on multiple occasions. And yes, these declarations are relevant because they were made public in conjunction to the ordinances for secession sent to the federal government. These were clear grievances made by the confederate states. Out of all the declarations, I could only find one mention of taxes and this was in the South Carolina declaration of secession, sitting down below, following a long grievance made about slavery.
www.civil-war.net...

Further regarding this taxes issue:

Tariffs were not an issue in 1860, and Southern states said nothing about them. Why would they? Southerners had written the tariff of 1857, under which the nation was functioning. Its rates were lower than at any point since 1816.

www.washingtonpost.com...

Passed with some hope to elude the impending economic crisis, the Tariff of 1857 was the lowest tariff enacted by Congress since 1816. The tariff was partially passed in order to rectify the conflict between the woolen manufacturers and producers, both of whom were badly hit with the 1846 tariff, which had raised the duties on raw wools to thirty percent and reduced that on flannels and blankets to only twenty percent. The Tariff of 1857 effectively lowered the manufacturers' costs, protected their market from foreign competition, and compensated producers by retaining the existing thirty percent duties on competing foreign wools. The Tariff of 1857 was warmly greeted in the South and roundly derided in the North.

historyengine.richmond.edu...

Further on this argument about taxes, let us not forget that the confederate states seceeded from the Union a mere month or two after Lincoln won the elections. They seceeded before he assumed office to raise any taxes what so ever. Taxes were of little relevance to lincoln's campaign and John Breckinridge, the southern choice, Lincoln's direct opponent, made little issue of taxes in the campaign. This should be of relevance:

Breckinridge, a likable border-state moderate, was elected vice president under James Buchanan (1857-61); as vice president, he worked unsuccessfully for a sectional compromise. He was nominated as a presidential candidate by the Democratic party's southern wing; he swept the South but lost nationally to Abraham Lincoln.

Read more: www.answers.com...

The 1860 elections was at a time of strain and division in the democratic party. The core issue that split the party between the southerners and the rest was that of slavery, not taxes.

one more thing as far as slaves were concerned the north the abolitionists were a small factor in the north at the time of Lincoln 4%. Do you really think the North sent people to die with only 4%

Where did I make the argument that Lincoln went to war to free the slaves?

History lesson huh?

Now that I think about it, I've noticed quite a bit more hatred brewing in the north. People aren't nearly as polite as in the south. Also even farther north, our neighbors in Canada have problems with racism, as witnessed in person by a personal friend of mine on her last visit.

In a Letter to Horace Greeley from then President Abraham Lincoln.

Executive Mansion,
Washington, August 22, 1862.

Hon. Horace Greeley:
Dear Sir.

I have just read yours of the 19th. addressed to myself through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements, or assumptions of fact, which I may know to be erroneous, I do not, now and here, controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here, argue against them. If there be perceptable in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right.

As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing" as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free.

Yours,
A. Lincoln.

showcase.netins.net...

Now get off your soapbox because your thought process on this subject is flawed. That cloth rectangle is on my state flag and we're quite proud of its heritage down here. If others want to display it throughout the country as a symbol of their support of liberty, then I support them, but trying to make "it" out to be something that it is not just shows ones incompetence and lack of knowledge in this area of history.

The local Sherriffs office down here changed their dept. patch three times due to confusion on this very subject (state flag, no state flag, state flag, etc - rinse and repeat). Proud to say the flag is back and its here to stay.