Praying in Paris streets outlawed

Originally posted by Unity_99
I think everyone should have a big prayer session in front of the parliament, courts and police stations of every faith. It takes standing up to tyrants to overcome them. Its a bit of work, and planning. Then doing it, nonstop, until the threat is over.

edit on 17-9-2011 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)

Have you read the rest of this thread? Have you seen the videos, heard the witnesses, read the deal that was worked out with the Muslims on this?

I understand that sometimes we just reply to the OP without taking the time to read the many pages before it (I do that too sometimes). But it would really be a good idea to do it when you have the time.

In this case,
-the deal was worked out with the Muslim leaders two weeks before, that the state would build for them a giant mosque. They claimed that the mosques they have were not big enough, that is why HUNDREDS of people were blocking off streets to pray outside, with their own private guards to keep others off the street, illegally (without a permit for public demonstration on public streets), for the past 15 years.

-People who lived on those streets could not come or go to or from their apartment during prayer hours. Nobody could drive through that street during prayer hours. The police had orders not to object or intervene in any way, despite the illegal activity, for fear of being seen as oppressive and spurring the very common violent uprisings of the arab communities.

So yes, there has been oppression of rights- of the people who live on those streets, of the people who need to drive through those streets to get to work or home. Since they are civilized and self disciplined people they have not done violent rioting in response to these years of oppression.

So this deal was worked out first with the Muslim leaders that the state will build them a new mosque, THEN the law put forth about using the public streets for massive prayer meetings. This is why the Muslims are in agreement with it.
The state and religion are now intertwined, despite the laws against that. We tax payers are buying them a new place of worship, and have given them a public facility to pray in as it is being built.
Islam is now the religion of France, since it is funded by the state. We are Islams bitches. I hear Greece just agreed to build one for their immigrant muslim population also (really something they can afford right now...NOT).


You know guys, one week ago it was a huge controversy here that in one village, the mayor had a statute built in the park. It was a stylized version of the Virgin Mary. He was immediately faced with charges for using the community funds for religious purposes, and had to pay back every person in the community, out of his own pocket, for the cost of the statue. (most of them being Christian, but still in uproar over the melange of religion and state).

I thought this was a shining example of dedication to secularism. But now I see their loyalties are just with a specific religion, as they are cowed by fear of fit throwing adolescents, and bleeding heart liberals who know nothing of the situation here making judgements against them.

In my view if I wanted to stand on my head on the street I should be able to do so, or walk on my hands, but because of society, where you are instructed how to walk on the street, how to talk and how to become fake then the other things (real behavior without faking it) is viewed wrong, because society thinks it's bad. In other words the modern society instructs how people should live their lives in public, how to talk, act and so on, like an actor, how to fake it, give a fake smile, be a fake whore like in the Colgate commercials.


If I had a rag I should be able to sit where I want and start sunbading wherever I want, just get some of those sun rays in public.

We live in a fake world, made by people that like fake rules in a robotic society that tell people what the customs and the public culture should be , people follow them like sheep. "The so called modern society" of the sheep.

As long as there is no violence I don't see what the problem is. It's funny they try to assimilate other cultures into the sheep program and this is what they got. Mass praying in to the public.

If you think this is being done by natural occurance...You'd be wrong, dead wrong. Everything that takes
place in Society is carefully and purposely Calculated. This is no mistake. Divide and Conquer, remember? People
act as though this is new, it is not. Gov't is ruled by those who own them, they do what they are told to do. This is being done to Divide the Masses in order to instill nwo techniques.

The big wigs running this planet, in case no one noticed.., are ensuring their plan takes place,as they have
planned for it to.. They want to Own everything, your animals, your farms, your families, your Neighbors and your Properties, your rights are gone, you haven't got any rights it's an illusion. Deal with it. Stop fighting each other
and start waking up, because if you can't or don't want to, you're screwed either way. See it for what it is, the
biggest God &&&&& farce of the Century. The only way a very small group of people, 'quote those running this planet unquote' can own an entire planet, is by tricking them and DIVIDING them into SUBMISSION.

Wake up, enjoy a stress free life, or continue on with the silly illusion.

reply to post by Firas77


Because it wouldn't be accepted if other showed there religion in public if it wasn't islam

Originally posted by loves a conspiricy
Muslims pray anywhere......there was one guy seen praying on top of a new york cab...il try and add the pic in an edit

Ive not seen many christians praying in the streets, i have seen them annoying people with religious propaganda though (repent and all that crap). I think this is more aimed at muslims, who will, and do, pray anywhere they like if they are out and need to pray.

Imagine what France is like with all the immigrants there......im sure you would see this on a daily basis in France.
Go to Calais.....its a dive, its full of immigrants from muslim countries. They have it worse than here in the UK.

edit on 15-9-2011 by loves a conspiricy because: (no reason given)

The Bible seems to ask Christians to pray in secret so that we don't draw attention to ourselves for show (!). Regular exact time prayer, directional prayer and public prayer is something religious people do, it has nothing to do with kingdom the Bible talks about.

Originally posted by BluesmaOne of the extremists was interviewed, and he said the government had to" fulfil their responsibilities" in building mosques.

Praying in Paris streets outlawed

Sheikh Mohamed salah Hamza, in charge of one of the Parisian mosques which regularly overflows, said he would obey the new law, but complained: "We are not cattle" and that he was "not entirely satisfied" with the new location. He said he feared many believers would continue to prefer going to the smaller mosque.

Muslims caught praying on the streets of Paris face arrest in tough new law

Abdul Sidiqi, another worshipper, said: ‘This is another example of the government clamping down on Muslims, and the Muslim way of life. ‘If they do not want to see us in the street, then they should provide more Mosques. What is going on is scandalous. The government is creating problems which do not really exist to put us in our place. ‘

Public funding of places of religious worship is banned under a 1905 French law separating church and state.

Little Protest in Paris as a Ban on Street Prayer Begins

As a rule, militant Muslim voices in France are rare, but the Friday Prayer in northern Paris drew a small but angry protest. An hour before the first prayer, young men with beards, green headbands and banners gathered on Rue Myrha to discourage worshipers from moving to the new site. “No system in the universe can control us aside from Allah!” shouted one young man. Another said, “There is more dignity in praying in the grass than in their false mosque.” As the prayers began, dozens of young men belonging to a group called Forsane Alizza disrupted the service and jostled with security officers.

Muslims defy outdoor prayer ban in France

PARIS -- Hundreds of Muslims defied a French ban on outdoor prayer -- which came into force Friday --and took to the streets and sidewalks of Paris to pray. The French government announced Thursday it was banning praying outside, with officials pledging to enforce the ban from Friday. But 200 Muslims ignored the ban and prayed on the streets in the neighborhood of La Goutte d'Or, Le Parisien newspaper reported

After reading through a number of articles regarding this I don't believe this constitutes a violation of their personal freedom, or their right to practice their religious beliefs. I was not to find a list online public laws to substantiate the quotes from other posters that Paris already had laws in place against blocking streets, but it would seem logical. And if that is the case than people who live there should know the laws, and as such be expected to observe that. If such is the case then it is reasonable to conclude that these people knew their actions were in violation of the law which would in fact place themselves in a position of attempting to force the law to conform to their desires making putting them in control of public law. If such a law does not exist on the records their actions still raise suspicion that their motives were not purely innocent. Common sense and logic would dictate that you not block the streets and prevent usage by drivers needing access to those streets. Additionally I noted a number of article that stated that their were mosques within 1/2 to 1 block from the area where they were blocking the streets. Again, common sense would indicate that if your house of worship is full and you need to kneel to say your prayers doing so on the grounds outside of your house of worship, nearer the large number of worshipers already there (as there prayers are communal) and which might provide a safe and peaceful place to commune with your God. Where as walking a half a block away to kneel in the dirty noisy streets would seem illogical.

Either way the concept of law or right protecting ones freedom to practice the religion of their choice does have one inherent limitation. And that is the fact that what allows and protects this freedom for one, allows and protects the same freedom for others. When one crosses that line and imposes their religious practices on those who do not share their faith, they violate those laws or rights that they depend on to protect their own ability to worship the religion of their choice freely. Ones right to freedom of religious expression does not extend to a right to impose their practices on another against their will.

After seeing the video it's obvious why that law is needed. Not that the law will help. With numbers of insane muslims like that, they're going to have a muslim religious war on their hands at some point.

That video almost makes me see all religion as painful stupidity. Almost. In fact, islam is painful stupidity, while christianity in its modern form still teaches the correct ideals and standards of behavior, whether or not the (much less stupid) rituals are pointless.

Addressing their lack of sufficient accommodations for the number of worshipers within their places of worship. As with all other religions it is not the responsibility of the government to provide and fund those accommodations for them. Expecting them to do so, is expecting the government to grant them greater privilege than any other faiths, and place their faith above all others by doing so.

It is not illogical to assume at this point that if members of any other religious organization were to do the same due to over crowding in their churches in such large numbers and disrupt the pubic streets and walkways without permit, they too would be considered a burden and hazard to the public and eventually would prompt public complaint and legal action.

The only thing that differentiates the religious organization currently in the spotlight over this, from other religious organizations in the area, is the fact that none of the other religious organizations in the area have put the public and officials in this position.

Finally contrary to the claims of some that these actions are are impinging and suppressing their rights to freedom of religious expression (assuming this is a right shared equally by all) the government has in fact provided them with temporary accommodations in a public building which based on their separation of church and state laws, is something that they have no obligation to do,

I agree with the actions of the government in this situation,

At first I was like...nah, this isn't right, but then I saw that video. I'm not sure what it's like in Paris, but I do believe that if they are causing a disturbance of blocking roads or side walks..then yes, it becomes a problem. This isn't a protest...you can pray at your home or at your church/mosque/synagogue...no need for that.

reply to post by stainlesssteelrat

True god has no names, no sons, no servants, does not interfere with our business, he simply IS our universe. peace

beautifully stated.
and peace to you too

reply to post by pitchdragon

r... the problem with the prayer in the street start when the muslim ask for a place to pray and government would not listen, they asked and asked but nothing happen so they start to pray in the street...

Can you please explain further? Why would the Muslims need to ask the government for a place to pray? Normally people build their own place of worship. Were they denied a permit to build a mosque themselves, or did they expect the government to build it for them?

Originally posted by wayno
Were they denied a permit to build a mosque themselves, or did they expect the government to build it for them?

Ahh, this is another great religious notion. You can pray anywhere, but preferably in building with the rest. A special kind of building with a lot of paintings, statues, carvings, candles and high ceilings to peak the experience . Praying is also more efficient if your body makes some interesting figure. Of obedience preferably, so kneeling and bowing are must-have. But when you finally get to praying, it's more efficient to use a ready-made one from wide sacral literal genre, then your own stupid feeble words.
Gotta love religion.

Some facts-

The Parisian suburbs make up the areas with the highest proportion of Muslims in France. According to a 1999 census, 1,611,008 immigrants live in the Ile-de-France region. Of this figure, 466,608 are from the Maghreb, 238,984 from Sub-Saharan Africa, and 50,125 from Turkey. These three groups of immigrant populations comprise nearly 50% of the immigration population in the Ile-de-France region. Accurate data on the large numbers of immigrant descendants and children are unavailable.2

The French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools bans the wearing of overt religious symbols in French public primary and secondary schools (i.e. government-funded). The law is an amendment to the French Code of Education that expands principles founded in existing French law – especially the constitutional requirement of laïcité, the separation of state and religious activities. The bill passed through France’s national legislature and was signed into law by President Jacques Chirac on March 14, 2004 and went into effect on September 2, 2004, at the beginning of the new school year.7

There are over 75 Islamic mosques and prayer areas in Paris (IslamFrance). Among the most prominent ones in the vicinity include:

Grand Mosque of Paris (5th arrondissement) – Currently the largest mosque in Paris, it encompasses a prayer area, religious schooling, a library, conference room, restaurant and tea room. The Grand Mosque is headed by Dalil Boubakeur, an opponent of multiculturalism who works closely with the French government and national politics.

Adda’wa Mosque (19th arrondissement) – Led by the charismatic and widely followed Larbi Kechat, the Ad-Dawa mosque has a capacity for about 1,000 persons, but construction for a new mosque intends for it to be the largest in Europe. Regarded by many young people as a place of refuge against Islamophobia and discrimination, Kechat’s following has been in large part due to the encouragement of dialogue, fostering of seminars, lectures, and discussion of contemporary issues of importance – such as literacy, HIV, women’s rights, and modernity.8

Ar-Rahma Mosque (Saint-Denis) – The Jamaat-al-tablish (Society for the progagation of Islam) is a pietist and prosthelyzing movement, whose religious instruction favors intensive religious practice, strict observance of rules, and non-concern with politics.9

The visibility of Islam in France has evolved considerably since the first waves of Muslim immigrants, and notably, the noticeable presence of religion in the public space. After World War I, in 1922, the French Government of Edouard Herriot decided to build a large mosque in Paris as a sign of gratitude for the involvement of Muslims in the war. Completed in 1926, the Muslim Institute of the Mosque of Paris, located in the 5th arrondissement, unquestionably remains the oldest organization. The Institute, supported by privileged links with the Algerian state, was intended to become a beacon and disseminator of Islamic culture, as well as a place of gathering for the community. It boasts the authority of 150 imams, and oversees the affairs of around 400 of the 1,800 mosque facilities in France.10

Though the Paris mosque is the largest mosque in Paris, it is not the Islamic center most frequented by Muslims living in Paris and the surrounding suburbs. The Paris mosque is funded by the contributions of its members and maintains close relations to the Algerian government (OSI 2002; 135-137). In 2003, the French government handpicked Dalil Boubakeur, the mosque’s rector, to head the newly created Council of the Muslim Faith.11

Source: www.euro-islam.info...

So there are Mosques, and up until now, the government has supported their development without actually funding them.

Originally posted by Firas77
WOW there's a lot of hate here toward Islam..Disrespect..insults..I don't get it...We Muslims never insulted christ or made a caricature of him and of christians in general or mocked a religious symbol...some people don't distinguish between true muslims and terrorists and that's the big problem..not every "muslim" is true "muslim"..Islam call for peace and tolerance and one of the most important rules "do not hurt anyone unless he hurted you first" ..Anyhow..I live in An islamic country and it's very rare to see someone praying here...The french gouverment is just trying to provoke muslims as always...Salam Alaykom

Sure, there are a FEW people who seem to have hate towards Islam. I'm sure they have reasons, though I can't agree with them.
However, the majority of people here don't hate islam. They may just hate people in general who act a certain way. If it were Christians blocking the streets in France, many people would hate it... not because they're Christians, but because they're illegally blocking the streets. The French government isn't trying to provoke muslims. They're trying to uphold the law that applies to everyone, of every faith, and that's perfectly fair. The muslims don't get special rights simply because of their faith, and the muslims there shouldn't THINK they should get special rights. It just wouldn't be fair.

Here's examples of the way I feel about people. I'm sure many feel similarly.
Example 1: 500 muslims pray on my street, blocking the walk ways, making it hard to get in and out of my house, making it hard to get to work on time, or home from work after a long day. I'm pissed. I dare say I hate these muslims for making my life hard simply to pray. They don't have the right to do this.

Example 2: 500 muslims pray in a park, or in mosques. They don't block the streets and walk ways, life is easy, just like it should be. The muslims praying are happy, I'm happy. I love these muslims.

Example 3: 500 christians pray on my street, blocking the walks ways, making life hard, etc etc. I'm pissed. I hate it. They don't have the right.

Example 5: 500 christians pray in churches and at home and in parks, out of the way, and don't cause problems for anyone. I'm happy, they're happy. I love these christians.

Now, many muslims would say, even after reading ALL the examples, that i'm lashing out at muslims. It's a fact that I dislike those particular muslims who would say I'm lashing out at them when i'm not. I feel they should leave whatever country they are in, or they should be cracked down on by the law. They lack reason and perspective.

Now, many muslims would agree, and say "right. the ones not making life hard for others are correct. That's how it should be all over the place, and anyone who dislikes those other muslims has a really good reason to". Those muslims are showing they have REASON and perspective. I like them.

Cheers

It would be amazing if thousands of athiests and or Christians organized a meeting in front of their dwellings every Saturday to see how they like it.

The Muslims I've met have been real nice but when they get angry they get real ugly. Ever heard of turn the other cheek, instead of getting even?

Allah and YHWH are at it again. This is how I see it. Baal lost his followers many ages ago, renamed himself Allah and started a new religion. B-Allah or Baal-ah who can say? One thing is sure, his consort Tanit or Ashtoreth still has the crescent moon as her symbol.

Originally posted by Qemyst

Originally posted by Firas77
WOW there's a lot of hate here toward Islam..Disrespect..insults..I don't get it...We Muslims never insulted christ or made a caricature of him and of christians in general or mocked a religious symbol...some people don't distinguish between true muslims and terrorists and that's the big problem..not every "muslim" is true "muslim"..Islam call for peace and tolerance and one of the most important rules "do not hurt anyone unless he hurted you first" ..Anyhow..I live in An islamic country and it's very rare to see someone praying here...The french gouverment is just trying to provoke muslims as always...Salam Alaykom

Sure, there are a FEW people who seem to have hate towards Islam. I'm sure they have reasons, though I can't agree with them.
However, the majority of people here don't hate islam. They may just hate people in general who act a certain way. If it were Christians blocking the streets in France, many people would hate it... not because they're Christians, but because they're illegally blocking the streets. The French government isn't trying to provoke muslims. They're trying to uphold the law that applies to everyone, of every faith, and that's perfectly fair. The muslims don't get special rights simply because of their faith, and the muslims there shouldn't THINK they should get special rights. It just wouldn't be fair.

Here's examples of the way I feel about people. I'm sure many feel similarly.
Example 1: 500 muslims pray on my street, blocking the walk ways, making it hard to get in and out of my house, making it hard to get to work on time, or home from work after a long day. I'm pissed. I dare say I hate these muslims for making my life hard simply to pray. They don't have the right to do this.

Example 2: 500 muslims pray in a park, or in mosques. They don't block the streets and walk ways, life is easy, just like it should be. The muslims praying are happy, I'm happy. I love these muslims.

Example 3: 500 christians pray on my street, blocking the walks ways, making life hard, etc etc. I'm pissed. I hate it. They don't have the right.

Example 5: 500 christians pray in churches and at home and in parks, out of the way, and don't cause problems for anyone. I'm happy, they're happy. I love these christians.

Now, many muslims would say, even after reading ALL the examples, that i'm lashing out at muslims. It's a fact that I dislike those particular muslims who would say I'm lashing out at them when i'm not. I feel they should leave whatever country they are in, or they should be cracked down on by the law. They lack reason and perspective.

Now, many muslims would agree, and say "right. the ones not making life hard for others are correct. That's how it should be all over the place, and anyone who dislikes those other muslims has a really good reason to". Those muslims are showing they have REASON and perspective. I like them.

Cheers

edit on 17-9-2011 by Qemyst because: (no reason given)

However, the majority of people here don't hate islam. They may just hate people in general who act a certain way. If it were Christians blocking the streets in France, many people would hate it... not because they're Christians, but because they're illegally blocking the streets. The French government isn't trying to provoke muslims. They're trying to uphold the law that applies to everyone, of every faith, and that's perfectly fair. The muslims don't get special rights simply because of their faith, and the muslims there shouldn't THINK they should get special rights. It just wouldn't be fair

That is one of the most sensible statements I have ever read on here about Islam/Muslims.
Kudos indeed.

reply to post by Observer99


You don't seem to understand how things evolved into this, they opened the doors to middle eastern countries for assimilation, so the muslims would turn into something else as they get influenced by the western society, it is why there are so many of them in France, England, only so they would make them think in another way, so the ones influenced living in the west will eventualy influence the others living in the middle east by interaction.

In stead they got this, as England stated "the mullty cultural" program has failed, in other words assimilation has failed and now they are paying the price. I say good, the control freaks deserve it, mass praying as in defying the control freaks, if I had it my way, I would take a blanket and sunbade in the middle of Paris on the sidewalk as if I was at the beach, to show my solidarity with these people,

This was only done to assimilate other middle eastern countries, from being a muslim to mcdonalds to even higher standards becoming like "I don't give a s**t about anything" , the great transformation.

reply to post by pepsi78


How can that be, when the arab speaking population was not invited into these countries?
No attempt was made to get them to come over, they came of their own choice and desire.
Why did they come to a country that has a system, values, and ways that they do not want to live within or integrate?

I do not want to live in the muslim way, so I simply choose not to go live in a muslim country. I feel fine letting them live as they feel is best for them, and respecting that. If I want to visit there, I wll respect their culture and traditions as best as I can while visiting. But going over there and demanding the country change for me? I cannot even percieve the logic in such a thing.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by ModernAcademia

 

Thats France for you. Like anyone is really going to pray in the street and get hit, this is just a push to outlaw Faiths, as you will see eventually. I predict that in the near future all religion/faiths will be outlawed.

Except one...

Originally posted by abeverage

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by ModernAcademia

 

Thats France for you. Like anyone is really going to pray in the street and get hit, this is just a push to outlaw Faiths, as you will see eventually. I predict that in the near future all religion/faiths will be outlawed.

Except one...

and which one will that be? =p