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FBI Teaches Agents: 'Mainstream' Muslims Are 'Violent, Radical'

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posted on Sep, 19 2011 @ 09:08 PM
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reply to post by petrus4


The reason why I'm inclined to believe that you're correct here, is because from what I've been reading, the statistics for Islamic violence didn't really start climbing until the 1970s.

I just remembered where I was going with this:

The cold War. US vs USSR. All US foreign policy was directed toward getting as much of the world as possible on the US side. Palestinian PLO was socialist, an ally of USSR. Israel, though socialist also was US ally. US and Israel started Hamas as an Islamic foe to PLO.


How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas
JANUARY 24, 2009
By ANDREW HIGGINS
Moshav Tekuma, Israel

Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor's bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile's trajectory back to an "enormous, stupid mistake" made 30 years ago.

"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades.

Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas.
. . .
Israel's experience echoes that of the U.S., which, during the Cold War, looked to Islamists as a useful ally against communism. Anti-Soviet forces backed by America after Moscow's 1979 invasion of Afghanistan later mutated into al Qaeda.
. . .
When Israel first encountered Islamists in Gaza in the 1970s and '80s, they seemed focused on studying the Quran, not on confrontation with Israel. The Israeli government officially recognized a precursor to Hamas called Mujama Al-Islamiya, registering the group as a charity. It allowed Mujama members to set up an Islamic university and build mosques, clubs and schools. Crucially, Israel often stood aside when the Islamists and their secular left-wing Palestinian rivals battled, sometimes violently, for influence in both Gaza and the West Bank.

The US and Israel studied the tactics and ideologies of Algerians during the Algerian War of Independence, 1954-1962. The terrorist tactics had actually been developed and first used in 20th century by Menachem Begin and his Jewish terrorist groups in British Mandate Palestine against the British before Israel independence. Begin, of course, went from 'most wanted terrorist' to eventualy, Israel Prime Minister.

All this knowledge of terrorism was taught to Muslims by Israelis and Americans. The West projects upon Arabs and Persians what the West actually is. US and Israel are the masters of terror par excellence.

And I think I lost my train of thought again.
See this thread I started: Netanyahu: Palestinian Statehood Bid 'Doomed'




posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 01:11 AM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
you mean moslems don't always follow their own rules?? Gosh...what a shock!

No, I mean what I said earlier: Death was used as a punishment for the crime of TREASON, not for the crime of simple apostasy. Your wikipedia links says as much. And I backed this up by showing that there were examples in the hadith of apostates not being killed.

And I'm sorry, but you are mistaken. The punishment of death for apostasy is certainly NOT in the "perfect book, written in the perfect language, which is the unarguable word of god"- In fact, that "perfect book" has a much stronger case of "their punishment will be in the afterlife" for apostates, and has no mention of killing apostates.

reply to post by petrus4
 


Originally posted by petrus4
Ostracision and condemnation isn't causing it to stop. They don't need to be ostracised and condemned; they need to be charged with crimes and imprisoned, like we would be if we did the same things.

But they are, aren't they? I was restricting myself to muslim scholars and clerics so as to talk exclusively about the "religious" aspect of it, but in these countries, the government itself is certainly not lax (some may say they are over-eager) in charging, imprisoning or punishing these people.

If we are talking about the specific case of Osama bin Laden, I'd venture to say that the religious leanings of the people in charge (or the religious leanings of the sheep that the people in charge wanted to pander to) had almost no bearing at all- their currently leader is just a corrupt land-baron who doesn't really have any serious idealogical standpoints, and the one before that was a military leader who seemed remarkably secular (and in fact actually orchestrated an attack on a major mosque that was a hotbed of radicals...something no western power would do so openly).
I don't know what happened with Osama bin Laden, perhaps it involved some backroom deals, perhaps everyone was involved, perhaps no one was, and he just actually WAS brazen enough to stay hidden where he did for however many years....we don't have the full information yet...but if past actions is anything to go by, laxity in combating religious extremism is certainly not the problem.

edit on 20-9-2011 by babloyi because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 09:10 AM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


Yes that is true. This war background that become a reason for ayat about rule of war in Quran. This order pointed to apostates not because they change their religion but because they betrayed in the middle of war and leaking some info. It was also another reason for ayat not taking friends from christian and jews.
Both ayat just simple pointing this betrayer and not in general. If they just becarefull enough to interpret it,with proper ijtihad or sapiah and alfiah, this missunderstanding can be avoided.
Too bad some muslim never want to know the reason and the meaning behind it and just interpret it as they want.
It might need a long time but it is our duty as muslim to put the interpretation on the right track.

Peace



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 09:28 AM
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reply to post by petrus4
 


You are so right about that. As a muslim i will say that islam is religion of peace but that wont be fair. One need their own understanding with their own observation.
Those radical and extremist are not only a problem to western world, but a big problem to a muslim world.
Ideal things when those ulama start to educate us, muslim, and show what is right and wrong. With teaching method or discussion among the ulama, the real one, and spread it.
In other side the western world need to start to pay more attention to the real enemy, not generalized all muslim and do things necessary without worry how muslim will react later.
When both side start talking about this seriously in depth to reach better understanding, i think soon enough both world will realize that we share a common goal.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 10:47 AM
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Originally posted by maung
reply to post by petrus4
 


You are so right about that. As a muslim i will say that islam is religion of peace but that wont be fair. One need their own understanding with their own observation.
Those radical and extremist are not only a problem to western world, but a big problem to a muslim world.
Ideal things when those ulama start to educate us, muslim, and show what is right and wrong. With teaching method or discussion among the ulama, the real one, and spread it.
In other side the western world need to start to pay more attention to the real enemy, not generalized all muslim and do things necessary without worry how muslim will react later.
When both side start talking about this seriously in depth to reach better understanding, i think soon enough both world will realize that we share a common goal.



I agree it sucks to be a moderate Muslins in these times, but you also need to look at this from other non-Muslin prospectives too. Even with a small percentage of Muslins being extremist it still adds up to 10s of millions if not a few 100 million people. That my friend is a very huge number of people wanting to exert their will on the world. Now how do I tell you from an extremist? There is no way other than to wait in a reactionary roll. i.e. you blow up and kill 100 people then we can say "hey that guy was an extremist". As you can see this is a very hard nut to crack there.

We also have a much bigger number of Muslins that sit in silent approval or silent fear of these extremist acts even though they themselves would not act. This means the Muslins themselves are not trying to clean this all up and they let groups, like the Taliban, take over a county and breed extremist while enslaving the populace to their ideals. This once again show that the majority over there tend to sit in silent approval with the more western Muslins being the moderates that can compromise so all can live peacefully.

You can see how generalization tends to be one of the few options available that is not totally reactionary to net the extremists.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 03:00 PM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 


I don't know which part of the world you live in, but in the Middle East, Muslims do not sit in silence.

I lived in Saudi Arabia for 20 years of my life and I grew up there. When I went back to my old high school to work s a teacher, Al-Qaeda bombed two to three buildings, among them were the ministry of foreign relations, my old school and a building used by the American government. In all three instances, a lot of civilians were put in danger. The majority of these civilians were Muslims.

You think people sat down and were quiet?

No but the people who feed you your news don't mention any of that or do they?

Extreme movements amongst Muslims especially in the Middle East started when certain Saudis funded the training and soldiering of volunteer fighters into Afghanistan. A lot of these men came back home to create and fund extremist groups because of what they thought to be American and Western hegemony in their region. True as they might be, their ways were wrong. They should have thought about bringing down their corrupt governments and institute just leaders who could not be bought by either money or intimidation.

Muslims criticizing their own IS the solution to Muslim extremism, and a lot of people including myself have been doing this on here and in other mediums. I don't care about what other people think about my religion. I don't feel the need to defend it when people sprout hatred. I just want Muslims to live like proper human beings. Thats what I can do to help. And I know it will help.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 03:13 PM
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reply to post by Xtrozero


You can see how generalization tends to be one of the few options available that is not totally reactionary to net the extremists.

I've noticed that you have an odd way of saying 'we' and 'they' and such generalizations. Here's some actual facts about 'we' if you mean all Americans or whatever.

9/11 and the Cost of Empire
by Tim Kelly, September 19, 2011
The United States has been intervening in the Middle East since World War II, and especially since 1980, when the Carter Doctrine was proclaimed, supposedly in response to Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
. . .
Carter’s lurid account of Soviet intentions was used to justify what amounted to an assertion of imperial prerogative by the U.S. government regarding the Persian Gulf region. Moreover, his administration was intentionally painting a false picture of events, for it was revealed years later by Robert Gates and Zbigniew Brzezinski that U.S. intelligence services began supporting the mujahideen in Afghanistan six months before the Soviet invasion as part of a scheme to stir up Muslim populations within the USSR and lure the Soviets into a quagmire.

Brzezinski was boastful about this deception in a 1998 interview with the French magazine Le Nouvel Observateur:

The US was teaching Muslims how to be extreme. That's why US has so many terrorism experts. They wrote the books for the Islamic terrorists.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by nusnus

I don't know which part of the world you live in, but in the Middle East, Muslims do not sit in silence.

I lived in Saudi Arabia for 20 years of my life and I grew up there. When I went back to my old high school to work s a teacher, Al-Qaeda bombed two to three buildings, among them were the ministry of foreign relations, my old school and a building used by the American government. In all three instances, a lot of civilians were put in danger. The majority of these civilians were Muslims.

You think people sat down and were quiet?



What did those people do on an overt level to counter this type of action? What are they doing now? Also your experiences in Saudi Arabia I’m sure is a much different way of culturally thinking than Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran and Iraq.



Muslims criticizing their own IS the solution to Muslim extremism, and a lot of people including myself have been doing this on here and in other mediums. I don't care about what other people think about my religion. I don't feel the need to defend it when people sprout hatred. I just want Muslims to live like proper human beings. Thats what I can do to help. And I know it will help.


Hate is a strong word and I don't think it fits here very well.... How about extremely pessimistic until proven others wise. I think there is more hatred towards the west then the other way around.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by nusnus
I don't feel the need to defend it when people sprout hatred.


I don't think most of us hate Islam, nusnus. Some of us do fear it, to be totally honest...but fear doesn't always have to lead to hate. Sometimes it just leads to confrontation/integration of the fear.

All I want is a scenario where I can have my own belief system, and other people can have theirs, and I don't have to worry about someone potentially killing me because I don't want to convert to Islam. As long as I can have that, I don't have a problem with Islam at all. It isn't what I as an individual want, but I've been adamant before that as long as Muslims do not try and force it on anyone else, they absolutely should be able to keep it themselves.

I think more than anything else, that is the central issue, here. With apologies if this sounds harsh, but most of us do not want your religion. You're entirely welcome to it yourselves...but we do not want it. I think if Islam was able to drop the claim to spiritual exclusivity, that would probably remove the single main issue that it has, as far as peaceful co-existence with the rest of the planet is concerned.

The other thing that has to go, is extremists being able to find so many different justifications for killing people. They will kill people for being non-Muslim, they will kill people for apostasy, they will kill people for blasphemy...that really has to go. Those of us here are learning that not all Muslims are like that, but to those of us who don't know, the actions of the radicals make Islam look like a death cult; as though murdering people is literally the focus of the religion. That really is not something you want.

I am concerned for the sake of the moderate Muslims we speak to here, because the radicals are starting to cause people in Europe and other places to become very scared, to the point where in Norway and similar places, non-Muslims are beginning to feel as though their very survival is at stake. You really do not want a scenario where on a large scale, that becomes the case...because if the rest of the world truly begins to view Islam as a threat, it could well end up being entirely wiped out.



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 07:24 PM
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Originally posted by pthena

The US was teaching Muslims how to be extreme. That's why US has so many terrorism experts. They wrote the books for the Islamic terrorists.



Many levels of extremism. The Taliban we trained to fight the Soviets are yes the same we fight today, or at least the same culture. I spent 30 years in the military, so I kind of have an insight to all that. That being said, we might have taught them how to fight with new tools, but we didn't push them into their extreme religious ways. That part they cultivated all on their own.

We didn't teach them to be extreme, they had been a warlord based society for 1000(s) of years. We supplied and taught them how to use the technology we provided. We didn't teach them to push extreme Islamic laws with stoning, beheading, jail etc as punishment if any broken. We didn't push them to treat women less than goats, not allowing them to learn, nor have any rights, to be traded as livestock etc. We didn't teach them to silence any faction outside their strict narrow personal agenda beliefs with brutal reprisals.

I'm not totally sure what form of extremism you are talking about, but the one I'm referring too has been around much longer than we been a country, and is the root of ours and the Middle East problems in this matter.

edit on 20-9-2011 by Xtrozero because: grammer



posted on Sep, 20 2011 @ 09:35 PM
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reply to post by Xtrozero

What you and Petrus4 demand of "moderate Muslims" is rather unreasonable. All Muslims must collectively be held responsible for what a 'terrorist' does? All Muslims must be held responsible for not stopping the 'terrorist"? In that case, shouldn't all Westerners be also held accountable for the 'actions of the few"?


One reason academics, journalists and politicians have had difficulty in responding to terrorism is that it is hard to define terrorism in such a way that it refers only to one’s opponents’ activities and not also one’s own. As a result, condemnations of terrorism are often seen by neutral observers as hypocritical. This does not mean that moral denunciations of terrorism are not appropriate and mandatory. Terrorist acts are profoundly immoral.
The Roots of Terrorism
by Robert L. Phillips, April 9. 1986

Can you give a good reason for American military killing 3 million Vietnamese? Were the Vietnamese on the verge of invading the U.S.? It was shear terrorism was it not? Inflicting death and destruction on Viet Nam as a political statement to USSR? Isn't that terrorism by definition?

What's that old saying? "Americans learn geography by looking at the maps of where they're bombing." Yet for some reason, no one ever asks me to explain why Americans did that. No one asks me why I didn't stop it. I'm never asked to defend myself for being American. Isn't that a terrible double standard?

How do Westerners know anything at all about Muslim countries? Isn't it because the Westerners went into those lands as colonialist conquerors and controllers of the resources? How do Westerners know anything about the Taliban's treatment of women? Isn't it because within weeks of the commencement of bombing, some PR people brought it up as if that were why the Americans and NATO were occupying?

I did things while in the military which were breaches of international law (don't bother asking, because when it was done it would have been scandalous if known, yet worse than that is being done today openly with no sense of shame) which I was thanked for. No one hissed or booed. In fact, the only time I ever was spit on was in a march against the invasion and occupation of Iraq. The most valued 'freedom' in America seems to be the freedom to deal death and destruction anywhere in the world without having to say sorry.

Why are there so many Muslim immigrants in Western countries? Isn't it because Western exported wars landed in the Muslim countries making humanitarian evacuation mandatory? So why exactly is it that every Muslim must justify her or his existence before the court of hostile public opinion and yet I am free of such requirement? There is no just reason.



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 09:19 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 


I dont mind with Xtrozero and Petrus4's opinions. It was reasonable i think. That is why we, all of us on earth, we who care about the future of our humanity and earth need to know each other more and faster, to identified each other, separating between good and bad in any religion or culture. This extremist from any background which in general want more power, and make other doing exactly what they want and they like, people who basically act like a spoiled brat.
From then we can start counter them, from basic ideology understanding until forcing legitimate law if necessary.

I think it is too late to fix this craziness for our generation, but i really hope that we can at least try our best for next generation's future. Even we can only put some seed of understanding that we are all human, religions, culture just an attribute.

I saw a bit of that light what kind of future i dream of . Christian, muslim, hindu and budha help each other for their holly day. When people from other religion help people from different belief to perform praying or in their holly day. They look just the same in the same occasion only different task. Looks as civilized human. Looks so beautiful.
That seems like a dream for now but i am really sure one day it will really happen. We just need to start it.

Peace



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 10:31 AM
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First off Can we get a show of hands for those who have actually been to a hard line Muslim country.

This political middle of the road safe place dont make waves trend I see here on ATS is going to make me vomit. I was born in 1961 but what I am seeing on the issues reminds me of blind following the leader idealism of the 1950's.

True Muslims will try to convince an American he knows nothing of the world and really has no opinion so its better an American keep his mouth shut on Global Affairs
True Muslims really believe what Westerners think they do.
True Muslims think women are only for breading sons and even dogs hurding sheep and of more value.
True Muslims see death and dying differently than Westerners do. They really will die to make a difference.
True Muslims Hate Westerners with a hate that is in more proportion than Western Racial tension. They hate with a passion every Westerner and the western way of life with such commitment YET they come here for education and business and get caught up in it...YET they HATE US It truely is mind blowing and you wont see it until you get off your butt and go see it for your self

* Muslim hatred of Western Civilization is a stronger Hate with More Conviction than any Black White Racial Hatred ever seen in the United States
edit on 21-9-2011 by mikeybiznaz because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 04:07 PM
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reply to post by maung


I dont mind with Xtrozero and Petrus4's opinions. It was reasonable i think. That is why we, all of us on earth, we who care about the future of our humanity and earth need to know each other more and faster,

That's just it, Islam (Qur'an) teaches you to know as an action, other people. Plus, living and praying, as one seen by God. Many Westerners are content to assume they are good and just without self-examination. Rather than making the active knowing of other peoples a part of life, they assume the other to be lesser until proven otherwise. This is my objection to singling out groups of people for scrutiny.


That seems like a dream for now but i am really sure one day it will really happen. We just need to start it.

Don't forget to leave some room for secular humanists in the dream for future.

Peace also to you.



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 04:59 PM
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Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by maung



That's just it, Islam (Qur'an) teaches you to know as an action, other people. Plus, living and praying, as one seen by God. Many Westerners are content to assume they are good and just without self-examination. Rather than making the active knowing of other peoples a part of life, they assume the other to be lesser until proven otherwise. This is my objection to singling out groups of people for scrutiny.


That seems like a dream for now but i am really sure one day it will really happen. We just need to start it.



edit on 21-9-2011 by mikeybiznaz because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by pthena

What you and Petrus4 demand of "moderate Muslims" is rather unreasonable. All Muslims must collectively be held responsible for what a 'terrorist' does? All Muslims must be held responsible for not stopping the 'terrorist"? In that case, shouldn't all Westerners be also held accountable for the 'actions of the few"?


No, but one needs to understand that even if 5% were extreme that would put 300 million of them on our planet. As I said there is no hate involved here just caution. Caution towards Muslins I don't know in any way or have any affiliations with.The focus should not be on me being wary, but on what caused me to be wary.



[Can you give a good reason for American military killing 3 million Vietnamese? Were the Vietnamese on the verge of invading the U.S.? It was shear terrorism was it not? Inflicting death and destruction on Viet Nam as a political statement to USSR? Isn't that terrorism by definition?


Good point and so if the Vietnamese were wary of me for what my country created I would and do understand. I don't take it personal in anyway. We attacked them and killed them so they have that right. BUT in today's world it would be hard press to find a more extreme group than what many Muslins represent. AND I do understand I'm looking from an American view point i.e. the one looking down the barrel of the gun so to speak.



What's that old saying? "Americans learn geography by looking at the maps of where they're bombing." Yet for some reason, no one ever asks me to explain why Americans did that. No one asks me why I didn't stop it. I'm never asked to defend myself for being American. Isn't that a terrible double standard?


You ever live over seas? lol I'm not here to ask a Muslin why anything, but if they are searched or questioned maybe they should understand why.



To your next 3 paragraphs....

Others have the right to view Americans with caution too... You are trying to apply some kind of right or wrong here and that is not the case. Its all about human nature. I have a room of 100 blond volleyball players and 5 of them would kill me dead if they could get a chance, how should I react when any of the 100 walk up to me?
edit on 21-9-2011 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2011 @ 06:36 PM
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Originally posted by maung

I dont mind with Xtrozero and Petrus4's opinions. It was reasonable i think. That is why we, all of us on earth, we who care about the future of our humanity and earth need to know each other more and faster, to identified each other, separating between good and bad in any religion or culture. This extremist from any background which in general want more power, and make other doing exactly what they want and they like, people who basically act like a spoiled brat.
From then we can start counter them, from basic ideology understanding until forcing legitimate law if necessary.


I love culture, I can break bread with any culture on this planet, have a good time with politics and religion never coming in the conversation. There is so much more interesting things to talk about.



I think it is too late to fix this craziness for our generation, but i really hope that we can at least try our best for next generation's future. Even we can only put some seed of understanding that we are all human, religions, culture just an attribute.


Very true, only future generations will change all this and hopefully they are taught to have compassion and tolerance for their fellow man no matter the differences. I have spent too much time in Afghanistan, and I have been not in favor of the war there other than that just maybe future generations will be taught a more tolerant life style, but I see that county as not being ready for that and maybe not ready for 100s of more years, hence why I see it all as a waste.



That seems like a dream for now but i am really sure one day it will really happen. We just need to start it.
Peace


The world as a whole IS a kinder gentler place than even a few decades ago, yes there are some rotten apples but I see that the extremist will die off as is their way. It might not look that way, but it is. The difference is news travels by the minute and much more is reported today than what was in the past even when things were much worst.



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