Capitalism is slavery

You who speak of your great fortunes from capitalism are the dog enjoying your bone. You who believe your masters treat you well and those who keep asking for the OP's suggestion... the -ism you guys are trying to pry out of the OP is Anarchism and if you think it's a utopian ideal ... read the manuscripts kept from the masses... (Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, Bakunin, Noam Chomsky) we believe Anarchism is crazy and out there because in order to keep the system's progression with tyranny we MUST believe it means to be violent and destructive. We are put in an educational system and force fed ideals that nurture this tyrannical capitalist/cannibalist system at young ages... all throughout our youth thinking we'll be rock stars or millionaire atheletes...

"Tyranny must be opposed at the start.

Autocracy, once secured in the saddle, is diffucult to dislodge.

If you believe that America is entering the war "to make democracy safe," then be a man and volunteer.

But if you know anything at all, then you should know that the cry of democracy is a lie and a snare for the unthinking. You should know that a republic is not synonymous with democracy, and that America has never been a real democracy, but that it is the vilest plutocracy on the face of the globe.

If you can see, hear, feel, and think, you should know that King Dollar rules the United States, and that the workers are robbed and exploited in this country to the heart's content of the masters.

If you are not deaf, dumb, and blind, then you know that the American bourgeois democracy and capitalistic civilization are the worst enemies of labor and progress, and that instead of protecting them, you should help to fight to destroy them."

Originally posted by daskakik
Yes there is poverty and since it is such a capitalist place and capitalism is so great the government only had to house 33% of the population in public housing estates. /sarcasm

I'm very happy to see people doing research on poverty on Hong Kong. Its a very important research because while pure capitalism does not exist, I think its fair to say Hong Kong is mostly capitalist. But given they have public housing and government-assisted housing, they have a key point against capitalism, which is a mandatory housing charity.

Hong Kong has an extremely tiny amount of land per person. Therefore, a rigorous test of capitalism would be to cease all public housing programs and leave it to private charities in Hong Kong. When I first started researching capitalism, I was honestly not sure if the poor segment of population would suffer as a result. The more research I do, the more I find that the poor are better off under capitalism.

When I started my research, I started off by looking at the rich-poor income gap. But almost immediately I discovered that is absolutely awful way to know if the poor are suffering. Lets say a country has 50 people bordering on starting to death on $100 a year plus fifty people thriving on $10,000. Two years later, they manage to make it and are now very hungry with 50 people earning $200 per year, plus the rest earning $25,000. By measure of poverty-gap, the nation has a population of poor people that are worse off. But they are not worse off! They are clearly better off.

I've found that measures of health like malnutrition make a much better measurement of poverty, and suggest when you research a country to decide how well off its population is, take note of the malnutrition data first. Here would be one example of malnutrition data, though it seems quite inaccurate given its good ranking of North Korea:
www.worldlifeexpectancy.com...

Its not slavery at all. Its all on a voluntary basis. Were you more free when you were bound to the land that nutrishes you?

Capitalism is not slavery. Two different things.

It is true to say that slavery can exist within capitalism, in the sense that a slave is a commodity to be traded, but a slave could also exist outside of capitalism, e.g. in the home and people “born” into servitude. We can loosely include indentured service, although even here there is some exchange of “goods”.

Conceptually, people may think that they are working “slavishly” and that they have to work to survive and equate this to slavery. This interpretation is rather selfish and misunderstands what slavery is. Slavery constitutes no choice and no reciprocal giving, other than that to survive. For example, a slave owner will make sure a slave is fed, but only out of self interest, because if not the slave would die.

Conclude. Capitalism is not slavery. Slavery is something else and capitalism is the other thing.

Capitalism works. Just look around and see the output of capitalism. The whole impetus of capitalism has been the catalyst for scientific progress, luxury and modern healthcare. People may rail against these facts, but they will do so on a computer which has been perfected precisely because there is profit and enrichment in the process of producing and developing.

Regards

reply to post by seachange


That link you provided shows Cuba above the US. Kinda puts the kabosh on the idea that communism leads to starving masses and is worse than capitalism. Of course they are probably starving for gadgets.

Let's see...The OP has a business. This individual provides goods and services for a fee. The OP also lives well enough off of this business... so much so that by 30, the individual will be able to retire.

I don't know... sounds like capitalism at work to me...

Yet people that have a business, or manage a business, or work at a business...capitalist...they are evil.

How are they evil? Even in the remotest parts of Mexico... which I have visited..the people there practice capitalism...selling everything from tacos and taquitos to shoes to turkeys and chickens on the side of the road... are they evil?

You can go back thousands of years and find sanskrit receipts in ancient Summeria for goods and skills traded and recieved... evil?

To be fair, there are some unscruppulous business people...there are also untrustworthy people in hospitals, charity work, and soup kitchens...but are they all evil?

If the OP is so insistant that such endeavors are "evil"..perchance the OP will sell all things...donate to the needy... and become un-evil... just a thought.

reply to post by AlreadyGone


No the op doesn't own a business and will not retire at 30. The op is over 40 and will work within this system till the day he dies. The op doesn't have the option of opting out of this system so is forced to work to provide for himself and family, no real freedom here. The op was born on this planet but doesn't have the option of finding unused land to provide for the needs of himself and family. The op like 97% of everyone else is a slave to his employer and the government and religious systems in place.


The op doesn't need a employer or a government or religion to thrive on this planet, but is forced to conform to the systems.

reply to post by AlreadyGone


Part of the problem is that people think that making and/or selling stuff is only possible in a capitalist system. Not true. As you pointed out this is something that people have done for ages under all kinds of systems.

reply to post by LDragonFire


My apologies...I crossed our discussion with that of NadiaCambia.... please pardon me.

However, I still believe that you and afore mentioned poster are wrong.

We are slaves to ourselves...and our wants and desires. Why fault others when we are the ones that bought a car or truck or house or burger? One group provides goods and services and the other agrees to sell them for a price... and both groups cross back and forth many times a day.

When our wants become larger than our means to provide for them..then we become a slave to our desires.

If you can provide for yourself and do for yourself...then you answer to no man for those things. One of the reasons farmers are mechanics and carpenters and engineers and ecologists and usually, the wife is the book keeper, errand runner, full time hired hand, etc.

Real life experience...I need gates to finish my pastures to hold my goats. I don't have the extra money to buy the gates. I need to make them. I also don't have the money to buy wood to make the gates....I see FREE pallets and packing crates on the side of road by a building center. I drive my truck and get the wood...tear down the crates...pull out the nails...make the gates...save the money I didn't spend and won't use the credit card either.

We have to determine what our needs and wants are and what we can afford. If we reach equillibrium on income and expenses...we are good. If we come under budget and save...better. If we go over budget and into the red...bad...we are now slaves to our wants.... not the capitalist system.

Now don't get me wrong...I don't live in fairytale land and have a perfect life... I have made mistakes and I have made some good decisions...the good ones outnumbered the bad, thank goodness. But they were MY decisions and MY fault..not some system..political, economic, or otherwise.

reply to post by LDragonFire


Sincerely...what do you do? you live in Missourri..if I read the Mo correctly.. and can't find some unused land? There should be some cheap land there somewhere...

Have you considered homesteading? Some states are on the decline population wise and they are towns offering free land...and if memory serves corectly, even the Fed Govt and a few states are back into homesteading aggreements.

Is it possible to sell everything, pay off debt and start over?

You can do so and maintain a pretty good life...with all the ammenities...good source of material is Country Living and Small Stock journal...Mother Earth News... BackHome

I am a retail asst mngr and my wife is in cancer esearch and we live way...way out in the country in an old 1850s farm house and we raise our own food...meat...veggies... good life.

There are other options...you are not trapped... you have my sincerest blessings.

Originally posted by AlreadyGone
reply to post by LDragonFire

 

My apologies...I crossed our discussion with that of NadiaCambia.... please pardon me.

However, I still believe that you and afore mentioned poster are wrong.

We are slaves to ourselves...and our wants and desires. Why fault others when we are the ones that bought a car or truck or house or burger? One group provides goods and services and the other agrees to sell them for a price... and both groups cross back and forth many times a day.

When our wants become larger than our means to provide for them..then we become a slave to our desires.

If you can provide for yourself and do for yourself...then you answer to no man for those things. One of the reasons farmers are mechanics and carpenters and engineers and ecologists and usually, the wife is the book keeper, errand runner, full time hired hand, etc.

Real life experience...I need gates to finish my pastures to hold my goats. I don't have the extra money to buy the gates. I need to make them. I also don't have the money to buy wood to make the gates....I see FREE pallets and packing crates on the side of road by a building center. I drive my truck and get the wood...tear down the crates...pull out the nails...make the gates...save the money I didn't spend and won't use the credit card either.

We have to determine what our needs and wants are and what we can afford. If we reach equillibrium on income and expenses...we are good. If we come under budget and save...better. If we go over budget and into the red...bad...we are now slaves to our wants.... not the capitalist system.

Now don't get me wrong...I don't live in fairytale land and have a perfect life... I have made mistakes and I have made some good decisions...the good ones outnumbered the bad, thank goodness. But they were MY decisions and MY fault..not some system..political, economic, or otherwise.

edit on 21-9-2011 by AlreadyGone because: wording

Thank you for this post and for so eloquently expressing what i often dont have the patience to.

We are slaves to our wants and desires. I have no idea why people blame the system when they could be happy with a very modest house or apartment, a bus pass and good friends and family.

The trap people fall into is thinking they NEED that new BMW SUV, 52" television and the like. Do yourselves a favor and DONT USE CREDIT! Save and buy when you can afford things, and you wont be feeding the banks and lenders. Its not hard to do. Fiscal responsibility is a dieing art.

Originally posted by nightbringr
Thank you for this post and for so eloquently expressing what i often dont have the patience to.

We are slaves to our wants and desires. I have no idea why people blame the system when they could be happy with a very modest house or apartment, a bus pass and good friends and family.

The trap people fall into is thinking they NEED that new BMW SUV, 52" television and the like. Do yourselves a favor and DONT USE CREDIT! Save and buy when you can afford things, and you wont be feeding the banks and lenders. Its not hard to do. Fiscal responsibility is a dieing art.

Actually you do have to work inside of the system to have the basics in life.

Maybe the use of the term slavery in the OP is over-dramatical but you do have to keep a certain level to function within the system. Of course that doesn't guarantee happiness because that's something else all together and those who look for it in material things are usually disappointed.

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by nightbringr
Thank you for this post and for so eloquently expressing what i often dont have the patience to.

We are slaves to our wants and desires. I have no idea why people blame the system when they could be happy with a very modest house or apartment, a bus pass and good friends and family.

The trap people fall into is thinking they NEED that new BMW SUV, 52" television and the like. Do yourselves a favor and DONT USE CREDIT! Save and buy when you can afford things, and you wont be feeding the banks and lenders. Its not hard to do. Fiscal responsibility is a dieing art.

Actually you do have to work inside of the system to have the basics in life.

Maybe the use of the term slavery in the OP is over-dramatical but you do have to keep a certain level to function within the system. Of course that doesn't guarantee happiness because that's something else all together and those who look for it in material things are usually disappointed.

edit on 21-9-2011 by daskakik because: (no reason given)

But in any form of governance or monetary system you must work inside the system to a point. The only exception would be a complete lack of any system whatsoever. And I don't think any of us truely want that.

reply to post by AlreadyGone


as much as you and everyone who believes there is no slavery going on in this capitalist world we're saturated in... there's a reason people are "occupying" wall street right now, correct? Are you even aware of the news? Do you understand the concept of money? Sure bartering and trading and all that is great... but when we have a billionaire who spends millions on a dinner (which I read on yahoo news a few days ago) while we have poverty driven suicides.... somethings got to change and it's not the masses decision making abilities... as much as you guys would like to argue and debate.

It's this greedy cannibalistic concept..... we all will die that donkey chasing the carrot.... while the cigar smoking thief in the 3 piece complains about the stock market

reply to post by MikhailBakunin

It's this greedy cannibalistic concept..... we all will die that donkey chasing the carrot.... while the cigar smoking thief in the 3 piece complains about the stock market

I believe this is human nature.

You can not change it. It is deep within our DNA......Straight from the hunter gatherer.........

To change it, we would not be human......

Originally posted by LDragonFire
reply to post by AlreadyGone

 

No the op doesn't own a business and will not retire at 30. The op is over 40 and will work within this system till the day he dies. The op doesn't have the option of opting out of this system so is forced to work to provide for himself and family, no real freedom here. The op was born on this planet but doesn't have the option of finding unused land to provide for the needs of himself and family. The op like 97% of everyone else is a slave to his employer and the government and religious systems in place.


The op doesn't need a employer or a government or religion to thrive on this planet, but is forced to conform to the systems.

This is basically the problem. We do not have the option to simply live off the land anymore simply because Government owns most of said land. You have to work THROUGH the system to be able to RENT land on which you have to abide by the rules of the true owners of the land to keep the privlage of renting it. You cant just go into the woods and start shooting deer or fishing up food. You cannot just build yourself a house. You have to work through the system to do any of this and that is why it is seen as slavery. We are in a system of controlled slavery. Yes you can opt out but you will more than likely die trying or end up in prison.

Originally posted by nightbringr
But in any form of governance or monetary system you must work inside the system to a point. The only exception would be a complete lack of any system whatsoever. And I don't think any of us truely want that.

Some might say they do but I don't think they know what they are asking for.

I guess what makes working in a capitalist system feel like slavery is when someone working for minimum wage sees someone who really doesn't work any harder make 10 or 20 times the money they are making.

Now before anyone says that if you want to make more then make it happen. The system doesn't really work like that, although it does give that impression.

If/when the average guy makes a hundred grand a year the upper 10% will be making 1 million. If/when the average guy makes a million a year the upper 10% will be making 10 million.

Income inequality in dollars and cents

reply to post by e11888


Yes, you do have the option of living off the land... it might be illegal, but I know for a fact that there are people..a community of "Appalachian Transients" that live up along the Appalachian Trail...have met them, talked with them,...kind of a Jerimiah Johnson crossed with the Grateful Dead DeadHeads travelling band...

Or you could go up into the northwest...say Alaska...and live off the land...the state even pays you a portion of the oil revenues...

BUT if you do...you better have your shht together and know what you are doing. I talked to one guy and he said when he first got there, a distant neighbor was showing him around. They came upon a cabin with the back half sawn off...the neighbor explained that this person didn't cut enough firewood for winter and had to burn part of his cabin to survive.

I like the simple life and have roughed it in the past...and could again if I wanted. At 48, I think I'll keep my country farm and pay my taxes for paved roads and sheriffs patrols.

Originally posted by daskakik
I guess what makes working in a capitalist system feel like slavery is when someone working for minimum wage sees someone who really doesn't work any harder make 10 or 20 times the money they are making.

Now before anyone says that if you want to make more then make it happen. The system doesn't really work like that, although it does give that impression.

No idea why you say that. I personally know a handful of people who come from modest upbringings and now make over 100k a year. It doesnt take much. A simple 2 year course in industrial electricity or even auto painting can easily net you a 6 figure job. I fully expect to be making over 6 figures in the next decade and retire with over a million in the bank. And i can assure you, my job is not glamorous.

Originally posted by daskakik
If/when the average guy makes a hundred grand a year the upper 10% will be making 1 million. If/when the average guy makes a million a year the upper 10% will be making 10 million.

Why does that matter to you? I dont think my brain is wired the same as most people on this site. They constantly complain about others making more than them, i couldnt care less. My life is good, i dont need what they have. If they worked hard to get there, they deserve it, if they didnt, they are usually spoiled or otherwise unpleasant people and i want nothing to do with them.

If someone else has a better system, im all ears. I have yet to hear it though. Surprising, because everyone on ATS hates the system and wants to tear it down, yet no one has a clue how to do it. Ill be the first to back someone with a plan that is fair to all and still involves democracy.

reply to post by nightbringr


You missed the point. A handful of people are not 300 million. If 80% of those 300 million made six figure salaries then the top 10%-20% will be making 7 digit salaries which would mean the middle class would still be middle class. Also to make it so that they can all make that money the fed prints more money which brings the value down and this keeps everyone on their respective level.

It's not that I worry that others make more it's just that once you realize that there is only so much wealth produced in a year it makes sense that those getting a larger piece of the pie will find ways to keep getting it and maybe even a bit more. That is where I came to realize that the playing field isn't level. I don't really care that it isn't but I think it is honest to call it what it is.

I see you always ask for alternatives. What's the point? Many look great on paper but flop in the real world. Even if "we" came up with the perfect system how would it get implemented? Right it wouldn't. That is why I gotta shake my head when people complain about how bad/stupid those in power are because if it were them they would fix things easily. They are not dumb they are doing a great job of fleecing the people and making them believe, amongst other things, that capitalism is the best. Not only that but they also have many believing that capitalism is what is being practiced.