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I Was A Deluded 9/11 OS'er

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posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 02:37 PM
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reply to post by GoodOlDave
 


I don't know. You seem to want to lump everyone who doesn't believe the official story together. I guess you will have your views and I mine.




posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 02:41 PM
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reply to post by DerekJR321
 


Great, logical and well-spoken, sir! Star for ya.

Unfortunately, logic doesn't work anymore. Ron Paul spoke logically the other night at the debate and got booed. I can shout at my Mom all the logical points in the world but she thinks Reagan and Ollie North are gods. The brainwashing is deep, the propaganda so pervasive that even people like myself, somewhat aware, are lost.

Where should I begin to start fighting, and against whom? My government? Someone elses? The banks? And how does little old me do anything against these behemoths? I don't have any rights, the corporation has them all now, along with the government so I don't have any legal way of getting anything done within a corrupt system and if I fought back, I get killed or worse.

Can't even talk about it. The Westboro Baptist Church can protest on the anniversary of 9/11 but one lone guy shouts out "9/11 was an inside job" and gets arrested. Free speech is protected if you are a "church" with loads of lawyers who will sue you into the ground if you so much as say the wrong word near them yet one guy wants to spread a little truth and he's taken away. Sadly, the cops there actually did him a favor as he was in danger of having the snot beat out of him.

That's civilized, dontcha think? Let's beat the crap out of someone because they have a different opinion and they happen to be expressing it at a time/place that is not to most peoples liking. As a American, I'm ashamed of how sad this country has become.



posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 02:49 PM
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I was an OSer for about 2-3 years. I never even considered questioning the MSM or OS, despite the fact that there were certain things I saw that day that didn't seem to fit. I was so engaged in the events that I dismissed things that now scream at me.

I actually toyed with the idea of enlisting, and would have probably done so but for the fact that I was fortunate enough to have a good job and an easy life.(both of which have evapourated in the last 4 years).

Then I watched Farenheit 911. Hardly a heavyweight in the field, nonetheless it showed me that it was OK to at least question the events of 911. And so I began questioning.

Like you I have watched everything I can on YT and other sites.I have even been exposed to cretins like Billy Meier ( who should be taken out and shot for wasting humanity's time with every level of his existence) and worse.Funny how researching 911 can lead you to such kookery.It's almost as if someone is trying to smear all attempts to unveil the truth by linking it to obvious charlatans, often in a completely unrelated topic field.

I have never met a truther who would subscribe to such infantile garbage as some of the negative examples you listed.

I have met people who believe we are unwittingly part of an :Andromedan Space Federation, who also have a range of wild 911 theories involving UFOs, laser beams, God, Jesus, Allah, aliens etc.Just because you purport a theory on 911 doesn't make you a truther.

Truthers' approach is based more on questioning what has been offered to us as incontrovertble evidence. If it is such then it should worry no OSers that we question it. Obviously it is unquestionable evidence.So why not let the truthers at it, to expose their own misappraisal of that days events.

But OSers don't really have such a level of confidence in the veracity of their claims. They feel threatened by truthers and cannot help engaging in debate with them. And then they become aggressive and insulting as soon as they find they are losing the debate.In fact most OSers start on the offensive.

Having been an OSer myself, I don't attack what I sense are genuine OSers, ie people who, like me, for whatever reason, have not given 911 the level of personal consideration it and moreover, it's victims, deserve. I don't see them as being stupid or evil, and I broach the subject gently and politely.

There are though, the OSers who will not listen to anything but the sound of their own voice. They have been steadfast from the getgo, in their opinions, true to form the whole way................... unswayable. I think you'll find a lot of Truthers' opinions have morphed with the ebb and flow of information and that they are far more open minded to alternative theories, many of which turnout to be bunk. But you can't KNOW they are bunk by merely refuting them without any form of consideration.

As a Truther I can accept that my theories on 911 could be wrong or at least slightly skewed.I have to accept this possibility because my theories are constantly morphing and I have several conflicting ones that while all plausible, cannot all be possible.

You dont find statements like the above, written by OSers, because they are absolutists. They are RIGHT, therefore everything else is wrong, Only they know the truth, whole truth and nothing but. They have no doubts.

I'd be interested to see if anyone can offer an example of an OSer, admitting any level of doubt about their version of events. It's almost like the argument between Christians and Agnostics. The Agnostic admits to not knowing but would like to. The Christian is right by virtue of faith and therefore 'knows' that the Agnostic is wrong even though all he ever claimed was to 'not know'. Scratch that, OSers are more like Scientologists, obsessive, vindictive and agressive, almost like it's their job.

It is abundantly clear that at least on ATS, some OSers clearly have an agenda other than seeking truth and denying ignorance. What propels you, I can only guess. Your role in this whole thing is redundant at best and at worst its damaging the very cause you seem to represent. All the OSers do is reiterate the same garbage which aroused the suspicions of truthers in the first place.

I wonder how many people have been driven to the Truthers by the patently fallacious and wantonly aggressive OS approach
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posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by JibbyJedi
 


Wow, you lost all credibility with me when you started posting Ike and trying to pour every conspiracy into one giant web of conspiracies pointing to 9/11.

Though I believe 9/11 to be a conspiracy over it's act or the information given to us anyways, so much is suspect. But people like you discredit the movement for truth.. you make us look ignorant to an extreme.



posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 02:55 PM
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reply to post by blah yada
 





I'd be interested to see if anyone can offer an example of an OSer, admitting any level of doubt about their version of events. It's almost like the argument between Christians and Agnostics.


Me too. They seem to get angry at some of us who are questioning so called "facts."
Eye witnesses' account of events are not "facts", it's hear say, still shouldn't be totally blown off.

Has anyone seen the latest Charlie Veitch videos? The british guy who went from truther to OSer, now he swears at and insults anyone who questions the official story. Is that confidence or patronizing lack of empathy and understanding?



posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by DerekJR321
I don't know. You seem to want to lump everyone who doesn't believe the official story together. I guess you will have your views and I mine.



All right, I invite you to prove me wrong- Did you read the 9/11 commission report? It would seem to me to be the logical first step in any investigation to find out what the commission report even says before you devote yourself to showing how it's a pack of lies. From my discussions with you truthers, I've met only ONE who actually read the thing., and even then I think he was lying because he was complaining about things in the 9/11 commission report that the report never said.

What's your answer?



posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by JibbyJedi
 


Wow, you lost all credibility with me when you started posting Ike and trying to pour every conspiracy into one giant web of conspiracies pointing to 9/11.

Though I believe 9/11 to be a conspiracy over it's act or the information given to us anyways, so much is suspect. But people like you discredit the movement for truth.. you make us look ignorant to an extreme.


Seeing how you can't spell his name correctly, it's probably a good assumption that all you know about Icke is the reptilian stuff. He's quite diverse in his research and statements, and he never personally claimed that HE believes in the reptilians himself, he just goes into the theories that are out there in the field among many people.

I posted ALL those videos as an example of what is down the conspiracy theory road I and many others have traveled.
OS'ers have a tendency to stop watching any documentary and discontinue reading pages of info, if it doesn't go along with their belief system. It took some friends of mine 6 months to completely watch Endgame. 6 months! Then they said, "that was a good documentary, but I still don't know what to believe."

Cognitive dissonance can be so thick in some people, they literally cannot sit through anything that goes against their embedded beliefs. I on the other hand can watch almost anything, because I want to know BOTH sides.



posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 03:09 PM
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Originally posted by GoodOlDave

. Heck, we can't even discuss how NORAD responded to the first request for assistance before some dope hijacks the thread and insists it's all the fault of the Jews. Where the heck did you truthers get this Jew hating kick, from, anyway?



Ahh the oldest trick in the book , the Anti-Semite smear job. I'm half Jewish and I think 911 was an inside job. I don't doubt there could have been Israeli involvement at one level or another. Not all Jews are Israeli. Are you Jewish? Because it often seems that the people who like to play the anti-semite card are not themselves Jewish, rather they are demagogues who will hijack whatever cause is convenient to their ends.

Let the record show that you invoked the anti-semite theme into this discussion. Why? Because it is a common tool of OSers.
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posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 03:09 PM
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reply to post by GoodOlDave
 





Did you read the 9/11 commission report? It would seem to me to be the logical first step in any investigation to find out what the commission report even says before you devote yourself to showing how it's a pack of lies.


Even half of the 9/11 Omission investigators call that report a farse. It's not that hard to write down bs on pieces of paper and call it facts, I can do that right now if you like. Video evidence is the strongest evidence we have in the search for facts it seems.
Insulting people who are asking questions seems to be the m.o. of the OS'ers, and I suppose you believe that Oswald killed Kennedy all by himself too? How's that kool-aid working out for you?

Since I "woke up", my health has improved about 80%, no longer get headaches, I eat better than I ever have, and my personal demeanor has been calmed down tremendously. I have never been so balanced and calm in all my life as I have since 2008 and waking up to the lies perpetrated upon us all.
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posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by DerekJR321


Look. I don't believe the official 9/11 Commission or NIST report. There are too many glaring questions that have not been answered. There are too many "why" questions (for me at least). So its my prerogative to look into it. Is that to say I go on some Geocities site and believe people saying there were no planes or the planes were alien space ships carrying mini nukes? God of course not. Frankly I believe those sort of stories were put out there to have the EXACT effect they are having. They lump anyone who has questions into "that" group. "Oh you don't believe the governments account of 9/11? What are you some hologram loon?" See. That's not fair. There are good and decent people out there pouring their hearts into research because they feel the governments investigation was lacking. Severely lacking. So what is the problem with doing more investigation?


The answer is simple- If you wish to dismiss the 9/11 commission report, fine, that's your right...but what you don't seem to understand is that it then becomes YOUR responsibility to come up with an alternative scenario that better fits the facts, and that's ALL the facts, not simply those one or two cherry picked items of interest that happen to look the way you want it to.


Yup hiding crucial video FACTS about the pentagon and cherry picking 5 worthless frames to conclude the entire event...yep that illistrates what you are talking about perfectly.

And let me ask exactly how good of an "alternative scenario" could anyone come up with when the above...is rampant...so much information we do not and wont have access too that could EASILY solve this whole issue...yet its being restricted hmm....Guess without that crucial info we won't be able to make any semblence of a decent "alternative theory"...oh and how convienient is that..hmm


Take it for what it is. Our government has lied to us on so many occasions, how could we NOT look into this more? I mean from Pearl Harbor (yes we knew, yes there was plenty of time to warn the port), to the Gulf of Tonkin (attack never happened), to the reasons our soldiers are still getting blown up in Iraq and Afghanistan. Lies on top of lies. Any sane person WOULD be a little skeptical of something from the government.



I don't recall anyone claiming the US gov't rigged up a bunch of US planes to look like Japanese bombers to frame Japan in a false flag operation. Have you? I don't recall anyone claimign a bunch of secret agents boarded the USS Liberty and faked battle damage with hammers and drills. Have you? This is LITERALLY what you truthers are claiming as far as 9/11 with your "secret controlled demolitions" and "planted aircraft wreckage at the Pentagon" claims. Heck, according to you truthers, between accusing the gov't, the Jews, the Masons, the Illuminati (and I've even met one guy who said it was staed by Canada!) the only people you truthers seem to think are completely innocent is Al Qaida.


I was just talking in another 9-11 thread how:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Because people LOVE to generalize and put ideas/concepts into a box because they are lazy and its easy for the brain to "organize"...

this is why wild stories of holographic planes and scarecrow -actors and "insert wild technology here" are so incredibly good at discrediting the the idea of a "9-11 conspiracy"...it makes people put "9-11 conspiracy" into the "holographic-scarecrow-actor" box and be done with it...

it has been incredibly effective as I see ATS all the time people are trying to lump all the crazy ideas into the "truther box" then consiquently anyone who "questions 9-11" gets tossed into that box as well...

thank you for illistrating that point to perfection...I noticed that it is a "theme" with you...
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posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by eyesdown
I've been reading both threads now. And even though I feel certain that it was an inside job, there are things that still don't make sense to me.

If they needed a false flag to go to war , we all know that it does not take the death of nearly 3000 civillians and the destruction of three sky scrapers and the hijaking of several planes to get public backing, or to make war look just.

A few bombs and your done, or even just enough media influence and your done you've got yourself a war.


But then I think well, they wanted a few wars so it had to be something massive, they had to create this idea that the threat from the middle east was real and big, in a sort of "look what they are capable of" way, which they certainly did.


In short , deep down I want to believe that all those people didn't die by the hand of their own government, just so their government could make money from more deaths via war.

Yet,I don't want to walk around blind to the truth either.



"The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed." - Joseph Goebbels

FYI, good ole Joseph was Hitler's propaganda minister.



posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 03:23 PM
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Loose Change was what woke me up as well. I don't know what got me to watch it, but I did, and I re-watched it 3 times. After that, my life completely changed, and so did my view of life. I can completely relate to your story.

9/11 was a wake-up call.



posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by Cassius666
I think 95% of people who are now skeptics started out as believers. Its in the nature of the topic at hand.

However I also see what you did there :p .



Let's face it, noone looked at the video of the attack and insisted the planes were holograms and everyone on Manhattan is a secret disinformation agent on their own. Someone had to have come along after the fact and threw their slick sales pitch at them. The OP openly admitted that in his case, it was Alex "Joker" Jones.


Maybe so but how many people go around trying to convince that the planes were holograms. On this board I know of one and he got banned, but probably because of reasons unbeknown to me.

HOWEVER I am very sure many people looked at the "collapse" of WTC 7 and thought by themselves "gee, I have seen this before" and then architects and engineers corroborated their suspicions. Then there is of course the whitsleblowers, people from a military, intelligence or political background and of course the obvious motivation elements within Europe and America would have to seize control of Afghanistan.



posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by JibbyJedi

Even half of the 9/11 Omission investigators call that report a farse. It's not that hard to write down bs on pieces of paper and call it facts, I can do that right now if you like. Video evidence is the strongest evidence we have in the search for facts it seems.


So in other words, you just proved everything I said and you DIDN'T read it, You're going by some Spongebob Squarepants cartoon verson of what you think the "OS" is when in reality, you don't even know what the "Lies" supposedly even are. How then can you say "video evidence is the strongest evidence" when you don't even know whether the "video evidence" even contradicts what the 9/11 commission report says? The 9/11 commission report didn't even document how the towers fell one way or the other.

FYI Lee Hamilton admits right away the report is simply a first draft becuase more information is bound to come out later, but he also says that up until now, it still has more credibility than any of the fringe accusations anyone else is stating.


Insulting people who are asking questions seems to be the mo.o of the OS'ers, and I suppose you believe that Oswald killed Kennedy all by himself too? How's that kool-aid working out for you?


...and there it is- the OTHER reason why people cling to these 9/11 conspiracies- they were conspiracy mongors who were wrapped up in abject paranoia long before the 9/11 attack so they're naturally going to see the 9/11 attack through conspiracy colored glasses. The JFK assassination, Pearl Harbor, the Liberty attack, the moon landing, Princess Di being assassinated by the SAS, whatever, they're all a never ending sequence of false flag conspiracies by "the secret world order" and the 9/11 attack is perceived as simply the latest conspiracy in a never ending pattern of conspiracies.

This isn't research. It's a Rorschach test.


Since I "woke up", my health has improved about 80%, no longer get headaches, I eat better than I ever have, and my personal demeanor has been calmed down tremendously. I have never been so balanced and calm in all my life as I have since 2008 and waking up to the lies perpetrated upon us all.


I sincerely doubt that, because if even one microbe of the drivel these conspiracy people are churning out is true, it means you're a coin toss away from being randomly murdered by the gov't in some false flag operation and you're one posting away from being "suicided" from the conspiracy material you're openly posting here. Your not taking the danger you're attempting to warn us about seriously tells me right there you're not taking what you're saying seriously, either.



posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 03:33 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by JibbyJedi
 


Wow, you lost all credibility with me when you started posting Ike and trying to pour every conspiracy into one giant web of conspiracies pointing to 9/11.

Though I believe 9/11 to be a conspiracy over it's act or the information given to us anyways, so much is suspect. But people like you discredit the movement for truth.. you make us look ignorant to an extreme.


I think some of the Youtube crap he posted was an example of the type of nonsense people tag to the Truthers. If he was proffering Billy Meier as a source of anything other than organic fertiliser, then I have already insulted him amply for it. I'm pretty sure he wasn't though.


PS. I'm guessing you are not a Gaeilgeoir, as your Gaelic signature should read Ni NEART go cur le cheile. Neart means strength. Ceart means correct. It actually still functions as a sentence, but the original proverb says Neart. Sorry if this has already been brought to your attention.



posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by GoodOlDave
All right, I invite you to prove me wrong- Did you read the 9/11 commission report? It would seem to me to be the logical first step in any investigation to find out what the commission report even says before you devote yourself to showing how it's a pack of lies. From my discussions with you truthers, I've met only ONE who actually read the thing., and even then I think he was lying because he was complaining about things in the 9/11 commission report that the report never said.

What's your answer?


Well.. first and foremost I was willing to let it go. I was willing to say that you have your views and I have mine and leave it at that. But you seem to want to persist in poking at me. So be it.

No I have not read the entire 568 pages of the report yet. I have read about 500 so far. I often stop to research key points as I have been going along. Have YOU read the report? Again you keep referring to me as "you truthers". If you have an issue with me, my name is Derek and you can refer to me as such.

Let me give you a scenario. A while back a certain car manufacturer was having issues with the brakes in one of their vehicles (I think it was Toyota Prius). The brakes were failing in the car and as a result a few people died. Blame was put on the car manufacturer and they were held accountable. It goes without saying, that if you buy a car, you would expect the brakes to work no? The car manufacturer stated the car would stop by using the brakes. The brakes didn't work. They were to blame.

How does this relate to 9/11? Well. According to the NIST report, WTC 1 & 2 fell both due to structural damage from the aircraft hitting it, as well as the resulting fires weakening the structure itself. Now, John Skilling and other designers of the World Trade Center had designed the towers to withstand the impact of a 707, and the resulting fires caused by such impact. A Boeing 707 is not that much different that a 767. A 767 is 6 feet longer, 11 feet wider, and carries 980 more gallons. A 707 actually has a higher cruising speed than a 767. Here is a quote from one of the designers, John Skilling.



Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed, ... The building structure would still be there.


So are we to believe that the very minimal differences between a 767 and a 707 would be enough to bring down not one but two towers?

Long story short. If we are to believe the official story, that both buildings 1 & 2 fell due to structural damage from the impact and resulting fires of a 767, than why were the designers never held accountable? Clearly if they had built the building to withstand such an impact, shouldn't they have been held to some measurable degree of accountability? At the very least, wouldn't Swiss Re have brought into question the structural integrity of the buildings during its lawsuit with Larry Silverstein? Wouldn't this have been a logical thing to do?

But let me guess... that argument is irrelevant somehow. Well... if you can't answer me that question I can certainly pose several others for you. Seeing as you are so vehemently against any sort of questioning of the official 9/11 accounts.



posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 03:43 PM
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reply to post by GoodOlDave
 


Too many things to quote back, I'll just add my points.

I've spent about 20,000 hours looking at mostly crap in my researching, how many hours have you put in to watching or reading anything you didn't agree with?
I don't see what I want to see, I see what is in front of my face. You seem to like to clump people into categories and stereotypes, which is hardly accurate.

Video evidence is key, especially with the Pentagon. All we're allowed to see is small out of focus white blurs, why? If they have nothing to hide, at this point with Osama being dead and all, why not just release it all and put these "theories" to bed? Shouldn't they want this endless debating to cease once and for all? Or do they like us fighting with each other?

It can only be 1 of 2 reasons.... they know it was a missile that hit the Pentagon and can't possibly show us that, or, there's still an ongoing investigation into the Pentagon attacks and therefor they can't show us those videos until it's completed.
I thought they pretty much solved the mystery, it was Osama, from a cave directing 19 hijackers. OK, investigation over, show us all the Pentagon surveillance footage then!



posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by Sly1one

Yup hiding crucial video FACTS about the pentagon and cherry picking 5 worthless frames to conclude the entire event...yep that illistrates what you are talking about perfectly.


No I'm not. I'm actually referring to the 100 or so eyewitnesses who specifically saw that it was a passeger jet that hit the Pentagon, from an immigrant from El Salvador watering the lawns to an IT consultant packign in his apartment to move. I keep bringing these people up but the conspiracy people universally brush them off as "secret gov't disinformation agents".


And let me ask exactly how good of an "alternative scenario" could anyone come up with when the above...is rampant...so much information we do not and wont have access too that could EASILY solve this whole issue...yet its being restricted hmm....Guess without that crucial info we won't be able to make any semblence of a decent "alternative theory"...oh and how convienient is that..hmm


Give me an example of information "being restricted". Up until now, you conspiracy people have only shown that it's a figment of your imagination that the place had a video camera aimed at every trash can and blade of grass and that more usable video of the Pentagon attack even exists. Rather, the conspiracy people have shown that regardless of what is shown to them, they religiously brush it off as "secret gov't disinformation" so what's the point of you asking to see it to begin with?


Because people LOVE to generalize and put ideas/concepts into a box because they are lazy and its easy for the brain to "organize"...


All right, let's test that hypothesis. Some guy in another thread was stating that all he was trying to do was "research" so I asked him whether or not he even read the 9/11 commission report. It seems to me to be a logical first step to "expose the lies in the commission report" by reading the report to even know what the lies even are, and to noone's surprise he admitted he didn't. He was simply going by the saturday monring cartoon version of what other people were telling him was in the report and he was swallowing it like the seals swallow fish at Seaworld.

SO, let me ask you- am I simply generalizing and you really did read the 9/11 commission report because you want to know what both sides are saying before forming an opinion? Or are you living up to the sterotype and you're just going by what those damned fool conspiracy websites are telling you is in the report because you're going to only believe what you yourself want to believe?

edit on 15-9-2011 by GoodOlDave because: Corrected misspellings to placate the grammar Nazis



posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 04:02 PM
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reply to post by JibbyJedi
 

"The TV is the very reason why many Americans have bought into the official story. Take away that weapon of propaganda, and I guarantee America would start thinking for themselves again!"

Amen sir and a big S&F for your post.
We gave up cable almost 20 years ago, never going back to that crap ever.
Regards, Iwinder



posted on Sep, 15 2011 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by JibbyJedi
reply to post by GoodOlDave
 


Too many things to quote back, I'll just add my points.

I've spent about 20,000 hours looking at mostly crap in my researching, how many hours have you put in to watching or reading anything you didn't agree with?
I don't see what I want to see, I see what is in front of my face. You seem to like to clump people into categories and stereotypes, which is hardly accurate.


I'm not sure how that's relevent to anything, but if you want to know, back in 2002 I was on a political forum discussing Bush's policies when it was invaded by a 9/11 truther. He was insisting "Bush staged 9/11" and when I said I didn't agree with him he called me a murderer(!) because "Bush murdered 3000 people in a fake attack, and since I was letting him get away with it, that made me a murderer too". This is how you truthers have gotten onto my radar, and I've been horrified/fascinated by you people ever since.

I've talked to many, many, MANY conspiracy people, on many different boards, so I already know what you're going to say before you say it. Yes, I watched Fahrenheit 9/11, yes, I watched Loose Change, and yes, I listened to Richard Gage and read Jones' "thermitic" report. I then looked at what the opposing side was saying and saw that Moore, Avery, Gage, Jones, Griffin, Reynolds, etc etc etc were lying through their teeth. Every single one of these characters artfully misrepresents the facts in such a way so that it appears the way they want it to appear. It's the difference between...

WHAT THE NEWS SAID: In September of 2001, immediately after the attack, Pres. Bush called representatives of the Taliban to the US and demanded they hand over Osama Bin Laden to US custody, and the demand was non-negotiable

...and...

WHAT MICHAEL MOORE CHANGED IT INTO: In the summer of 2001, pres. Bush representatives held a friendly meeting on US soil with the Taliban gov't. This was a gov't the US didn't recognize and these were the very people who were harboring the terrorist who would one day attack the US. Did this meeting have any connection to the plan to build pipelines across Afghanistan?

So between 2002 and now, that makes it, what, 55,000 hours or so?




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