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Is Usury still a Sin?

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posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 02:14 PM
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Usury (or the loaning of money with interest) forms the basis of the modern banking and capitalist systems today.
And yet, "usury" is banned in the Old Testament, and seemingly not exactly encouraged in the New Testament. It was never rescinded by Christ or the apostles, and was a taboo practice for over a thousand years of Abrahamic tradition.
en.wikipedia.org...

Usury was once considered the "biggest" sin in Christianity.
For centuries only the Jews could lend with interest - but only to Gentiles.

In the current evangelical Christian movement usury is not even recognized as a sin.
This is ironic, considering that Old Testament verses against witchcraft or sex between men are still often quoted out of 613 laws.
What happened to usury as a sin?
How can fundamentalist Jews or Christians protest modern "liberalism" regarding sexuality, when they seemingly all have monies in the banks that commit usury?

Not even "old grumpy face" - Fred Phelps - protests against usury!

Yet Biblicaly it's a sin - and nobody repents!
Will they all burn in hell?
How can this be?




posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 02:24 PM
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Its also a sin if you're Muslim. Its a basic tenet of cohesive, functional society to not lend money at interest. Do you lend money to your mother at interest? Of course not.

And Jesus did, indirectly, protest usury by starting a fight with the money changers. They were in the church and the sanctity of God should not be spoiled by money. But he doesnt mention usury itself (to my knowledge)

It should be noted that the one and only time Jesus got violent was with money changers aka the bankers.

So to answer your question, of course its still a sin. If they stopped enforcing penalties for murder wouldnt it still be a sin in the eyes of God?

A sin is a violation of God's law, a crime is a violation of human law. If you're into God and JC then you believe that God's law trumps human law and therefore all sins will always be sins



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 02:30 PM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 


Great subject for discussion and one that goes to the very core of how we are hurt and sick as a society. That we have allowed entire markets to develop based upon making money off of the backs of our brothers like this is just utterly saddening. The world is so full of unavoidable pain and suffering; yet we agree by consensus to allow this to be done to us.

I have never been able to think of usury as anything but a machine designed to extract woe and strife from human beings. It is also interesting to note that it is illegal in Islamic countries, as far as I know.

I don't know why Christians have allowed this to be done to them other than that it may have something to do with this...




Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him.

Mark 12-17. NIV


In a nutshell; I realize that it is wise to give Mammon his due but as far as usury is concerned, we have allowed this to happen to us.



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 02:31 PM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 



Throughout history man has used a system of exchange in which to earn.

One would exchange a day's worth of labor for a small silver coin or food for example.

In essence there was some means of equitable exchange.

Usury has more to do with earning money without working or rightfully earning it, or because one says so, which is also well known as Stealing.

Really not much different than a robber sticking a gun in your back and demanding your money.


A Case in point, our savings accounts earn a measly 1-2 % annual interest.

But meanwhile , Our credit cards and other lines of credit such as home equity loans are essentially our savings lent back to us account holders, plus charging us 10-18% interest and even higher, Even as high as 29%.

Fortunately I don't use the credit card or carry a balance.

AND don't even mention the concept of late fees....which then are added to the outstanding balance in which to charge additional interest upon !

All in All , Usury is essentially stealing and that is what makes it a SIN for there is no equity or equitable trade/exchange involved.


edit on 14-9-2011 by nh_ee because: The Truth Shall Set You Free



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 02:33 PM
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reply to post by nh_ee
 


Yet, loaning money in a responsible fashion to those that are trying to build their lives, benefits and builds the community.

This can be accomplished without usury and is not stealing.



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 02:34 PM
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Usury is no longer a sin. In fact, in the age we live in, it -- like every other sin -- has been warped into virtue. That's progress for ya!



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 02:39 PM
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It was considered a sin since it could lead to slavery. Now a days though, people don't really see it as slavery, they simply see it as life. Most people in the u.s. are now in debt because they couldn't repay loans with high interest rates.

So people work all their life to:
a) repay any debt they may have acquired (be it home loans, car loans, college loans, etc.) and
b) to buy food and pay for shelter.
c) is basically the extras that people want to have but, with the current financial situation, people are able to afford less and less of.



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 02:48 PM
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reply to post by doctornamtab
 

Ok - if a sin is a sin, and they are all equal and non-changing then where do evangelical and fundamentalist Christians keep their money?
Surely by that paradigm, they might as well be investing it in brothels.
How many do have a bank account and thus support usury?
edit on 14-9-2011 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by Frater210
reply to post by nh_ee
 


Yet, loaning money in a responsible fashion to those that are trying to build their lives, benefits and builds the community.

This can be accomplished without usury and is not stealing.



Yes, in all fairness, Usury as with many things, carries both positive and negative.

For in looking up The definition of Usury it also includes:

1. the lending of money with an interest charge for it's use.
2. an excessive rate of interest or amount of interest charged.

Henceforth, definition of Usury (2.) and my example pertaining to Credit Cards interest rates vs those of Savings Accounts.

and also back to the relevance of stealing under said definition (2.) which is a SIN.



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 02:58 PM
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Making loans with interest was early recognized as a means to steal from people.

"Interest" crept from the innocuous fee for the labor and cost of hosting the financial transactions of others, into a 'demand' for profit above and beyond the cost of the service. (Such a demand was 'sanctioned' by leaders who took a share. Or were themselves in so much debt they could leverage the accommodation against what they owed.)

Imagine if you will, that you live on an island, and each year I come to the island to buy your unique apples. But each year when I arrive, you demand more and more compensation for 'housing' the apples while you wait for me to purchase them.... are you not tempting yourself to cheat me? Demanding profit "because you can?"

It is a moral imperative that we treat each other with dignity and respect; I should respect that you deserve to make a living, and you should respect that I should not pay a price that exceeds what is fair. Interest is simply the temptation of greed made manifest.

Of course, without interest, every single magnificently rich and powerful hoarder of wealth would see their treasure slowly dwindle to only what they can produce by the fruits of their own "labor." And according to them... that wouldn't be fair.... because they deserve the wealth they siphoned off from the labor and activities of others..... greed... see? Oh and say, what if you are not a usurer, but your father was.... are you not morally obliged to divest yourself of that ill-gotten wealth? Do you see that happening? No, it generally doesn't, so the sins of the father pass down... and the cycle of greed and avarice take root.

All around the admonitions against usury were wise beyond the pale of human wisdom... and even knowing the pitfalls, we still vainly insist that "greed" is good. There is nothing so powerful as compound interest. There is no yoke more permanent and unshakable than debt growth.

Usury is still a sin, but assuming interest were a function of fair compensation for risk and labor, then it wouldn't be usury at all.... problem is, only the usurer knows when he is taking advantage... and it is safe to assume he would never tell.

Nowadays, it's not considered usury unless the interest rate is "egregious" which is to say so high that it is unreasonable.... 30 years ago you could have gone to jail as a loan shark for charging someone 30% interest... today the sky's the limit! Which is to say in many parts of the western world, the sin of usury is legal.
edit on 14-9-2011 by Maxmars because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 03:00 PM
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to trade 4 apples for 5 is always wrong. if you are supplying a service to the recipient with the least amount of apples as compensation... it's fair trade. usury is a practice you should always be weary of because it allows greedy carnal nature to express itself covertly. that's why it's a sin to profit from usury or to enable others to profit from usury even it's at your own foolish expense... because you are helping to create the most evil system.

all sins can be forgiven in my opinion except for accepting the truth that god is love and we all are one.

i think that this issue might not have been touched on as much in the new t because it was clear that this is the direction the world was going into and Christ saw that it was not going to cease... but would cause an eventual collapse because eventually... people will start wondering what happened to that fifth apple when it goes all the way around the world, meets up on the other side... but the apple has been hidden, horded and now we are beginning to see all the numerous reasons why.

So you see, it contributed to a HUGE global sin that is currently one of the worlds biggest problems, but on an individual level.. you feel you have no choice but Christ assures you that you were born into sin and that is not your fault... repent because sins can be forgiven. just remember how important honest work and fair trade really is and you're OK in my opinion. Christ didn't say you had to lay down and die for the sins of the world... all you have to do is repent and do your best to try to avoid more sin because things are going to change.



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 03:03 PM
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if someone gives you no choice but to borrow from the system or that you or your loved ones might die... that is THEIR sin, not yours. It's the system. If you recognize it and do not try to break free, that is YOUR sin, but even if you have to take a bite of their system... you were not asked to die, you were simply asked to repent and try again.



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by doctornamtab
Its also a sin if you're Muslim. Its a basic tenet of cohesive, functional society to not lend money at interest.


rofl....palpably false!


Do you lend money to your mother at interest? Of course not.


I pay interest to my parents - we agreed before hand how much and what terms - less than I would if I borrowed from a bank, more than they could get if they invested in a bank.

Why would I want to deprive them of income??



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 05:03 PM
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In the modern world it is not a sin.

2,000 years ago and beyond the people in and around the Holy Lands (to give a geographical base) may have considered it a sin if they followed one of the various religions of the time.

In the eyes of some Muslims today, usury is a sin.

In the modern world it is not a sin.

Choice. If you have a problem with borrowing money with interest, then don't do it.

Regards



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by doctornamtab
Its also a sin if you're Muslim. Its a basic tenet of cohesive, functional society to not lend money at interest.


rofl....palpably false!


Do you lend money to your mother at interest? Of course not.


I pay interest to my parents - we agreed before hand how much and what terms - less than I would if I borrowed from a bank, more than they could get if they invested in a bank.

Why would I want to deprive them of income??




you wouldn't... but money does create more money. the concept of interest is flawed. if they helped you, you should compensate them for their service but the system of making money on top of money is fundamentally flawed at the very base of it's logic. some people might part with their own things for a time to give to you and should be compensated for their time of having to go without... but people with millions in the back aren't going without and they often don't help people at all. Why should they get to collect MORE money because they already have money? Numbers don't work that way. They don't just grow or multiply on their own without effort. If you have 4 apples, you don't put them in the fridge expecting to find five. You dig in the ground, plant seeds, water it...etc. Usury is the concept of gaining without doing any work. that's what's wrong with the economy. SURE... SOME of the people who lent money got compensated for an additional service or trouble, but you have people who simply by low and sell high and they think this creates something within the economy but it doesn't. it creates nothing but loss for true labor and a gain for usury. it creates a gap in the system. the large gap in the large system is finally catching up to itself.

it's not so much that percentages and interest and things like are fundamentally wrong, it's just that lets say you work for a company who lends money. You went through and checked all your borrowers to see if they could pay this back and did not let them overstretch themselves even in a time of 'loose lending"

You didn't get a lot of loans through, but the ones you got through you know are not going to cause people to become overextended and they have a good plan of compensation and everything seems very fair. these loans will probably not default.

then you got this other guy in the office next to yours who approves any loan he can even if he knows it's disastrous. he starts at top rates and makes people talk him down. he tries to see how many loans he can get through as fast as he can because it's good for business.

most of his loans will default. why is this not bad for business? because there are people who are also in the business of harassing people caught up in usury and they buy these debts from these comapnies and so there is no loss for THAT GUY.

What he is doing to the system is horrendous and will always result in a problem but as long as he doesn't have to take responsibility for it because it is so long gone from him... he doesn't think these things will EVER come back. People like that don't really believe in god in my opinion because they don't feel god is watching them do these things. obviously.

the problem is the both the good loaner and the bad loaner are bound by the same set rules of usury. who sets these rules? a failed system. Why do we go by them? because they are the rules.

we won't all fit under that same umbrella, but we are expected to so we contribute to those rules. some of these rules can't possibly apply to each case. there are loans that are pulling in CRAPLOADS of interest that no one did any work on at all! that creates an imbalance in the system.

Trade just be looked at case by case and if possible at all, should be finalized as soon as humanly possible to avoid this system of exploitation. You KNOW there is always going to be people who PINCH. If you want to help a relative, I think that is your business but if you build an entire network (the banks) to trap people in this system on the sole basis that it is profitable... yeah, I think that is particularly evil.
edit on 14-9-2011 by BlackSatinDancer because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 05:18 PM
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Usury is a sin in Islam... but you can still keep a slave and beat your wife sin-free


P.S.
I went there on the Islam bash, because it seems a bit.... illogically insane that Muslims petition non-Islamic nations for interest free banking because of 'religious reasons,' but this very same religion is extremely sexist in that a woman must obey her husband or can suffer spousal abuse (sanctioned by the Qur'an)... a woman's word is only equal to half of one man's word in official and court matters (2 women's testimony equals one man's).... and the death penalty and eternal Hell Fire is possible for simply being homosexual. Also, slavery is sanctioned by Allah and Muhammad.

Sexism
Death Penalty and eternal Hell for Homosexuality
Legal Slavery

Muslims want interest free banking, but we're supposed to deal with their sexism, hate, and intolerance?



edit on 9/14/11 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 05:25 PM
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Originally posted by paraphi
In the modern world it is not a sin.

2,000 years ago and beyond the people in and around the Holy Lands (to give a geographical base) may have considered it a sin if they followed one of the various religions of the time.

In the eyes of some Muslims today, usury is a sin.

In the modern world it is not a sin.

Choice. If you have a problem with borrowing money with interest, then don't do it.

Regards



for the bankers who have done dirty deals, it will certainly be a sin for them in my opinion... a HUGE one, but how much can you fault the person who just needs the house or the car to be able to feed the kids?
probably not much, but when you see it and you know it's a big problem... I think you gotta try to pull yourself away if you can, because THAT is what will eventually change the system.

..but yes, very relative in these times. If they had listened lng ago, we may not have the banking problem of today. so maybe they were trying to avoid the obvious but could see that this is where it's all headed to.

it may not have been talked a lot about in the new t but don't forget how Christ got pissed at the marketers. the point was made clear in the new... however it was put. It's still an issue. A HUGE issue.



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 05:33 PM
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Originally posted by BlackSatinDancer

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by doctornamtab
Its also a sin if you're Muslim. Its a basic tenet of cohesive, functional society to not lend money at interest.


rofl....palpably false!


Do you lend money to your mother at interest? Of course not.


I pay interest to my parents - we agreed before hand how much and what terms - less than I would if I borrowed from a bank, more than they could get if they invested in a bank.

Why would I want to deprive them of income??




you wouldn't... but money does create more money. the concept of interest is flawed. if they helped you, you should compensate them for their service but the system of making money on top of money is fundamentally flawed at the very base of it's logic.


Neither of us is creating more money from money - we each have a limited amount of money and income, and the money I pay as intgerest is paid to me for othe work I do.

Money "creation" is an entirely different matter to paying interest.



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 05:45 PM
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When one " borrows " some " money " thru a " loan " ; one is the " creditor " of the said " loan " .



Banks don't lend someone else's money . That would be unlawfull thing to do for a bank .

Banks actually perform monetising of the applicant's credit .


p.s usury is a sin which is performed regulary by banks worldwide . In fact the whole banking on fiat money thingy is inherently corrupt .
edit on 14-9-2011 by 23432 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 14 2011 @ 08:24 PM
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Well, the posters above agree: then why do fundamentalists waste their time on silly things that have no hope of ever convincing unbelievers.
Why try to prove that the creation happened 6000 years ago, and gay people somehow choose to be that way?
I mean, religious honeys - your holy book forbids usury, yet you've got your money in a bank, and so does your pastor who came up with all the other crap.
So American-style Christians are hypocrites?



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