reply to post by charlyv
Am I right that your statement could also mean we are infact inside a black hole?
Need ATS help...simple question: Where did the BIG BANG happen???, page 8
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reply posted on 15-9-2011 @ 06:06 PM by charlyv
reply to post by colin42
Not exactly. I was using 'event horizon' as a simmily. In black holes, it is the boundary point where light cannot escape the overwhelming gravity around a black hole.
Not exactly. I was using 'event horizon' as a simmily. In black holes, it is the boundary point where light cannot escape the overwhelming gravity around a black hole.
reply posted on 15-9-2011 @ 06:53 PM by sirnex
reply to post by colin42
Time as a fourth dimension as portrayed in modern day physics in my opinion simply doesn't exist. What this means is that there is no physical past nor future. There is no possibility of traveling backwards to an event that has already occurred. There is no 'arrow of time' in which events flow through. We've seemingly over though and over complicated the very concept of time (which is a very useful concept!). Things move and change. A day is not a day because of time. A day is a day due to our planets rotation. A year is a year due to our planets orbit around our star. The markings on a clock are not a measure of time, but the mathematical breakdown of arbitrary points the sun exists in the sky as it moves across from one horizon to the other.
Under the big bang model, time was created along with all matter. Time under this model doesn't expand in the same sense that space expands. Technically according to even this model, there should not be a clear cut one directional flow of time. Objects should under current modern physics be able to move freely both forwards and backwards through time without the need for a time machine. It's rather odd that there appears to be only one direction in which we travel through time under this model. One of the few reasons why I doubt both the big bang and our current understanding of time.
The faster one travels, the greater increase in mass for the object travel close to C or at C. What happens when an object falls into the event horizon of a black hole? It's subjected to it's immense gravitational forces, essentially slowing down the object to a point where to those outside it's reaches see's the object as stationary. Time hasn't changed, the only thing that has changed is how matter behaves under such intense forces. What this means is that there is no "time dilation".
Hopefully this was enough to get you thinking.
Where I struggle with any of this is with the concept of time.
Time as a fourth dimension as portrayed in modern day physics in my opinion simply doesn't exist. What this means is that there is no physical past nor future. There is no possibility of traveling backwards to an event that has already occurred. There is no 'arrow of time' in which events flow through. We've seemingly over though and over complicated the very concept of time (which is a very useful concept!). Things move and change. A day is not a day because of time. A day is a day due to our planets rotation. A year is a year due to our planets orbit around our star. The markings on a clock are not a measure of time, but the mathematical breakdown of arbitrary points the sun exists in the sky as it moves across from one horizon to the other.
The big bang or whatever created time so is it the universe that is expanding or time?
Under the big bang model, time was created along with all matter. Time under this model doesn't expand in the same sense that space expands. Technically according to even this model, there should not be a clear cut one directional flow of time. Objects should under current modern physics be able to move freely both forwards and backwards through time without the need for a time machine. It's rather odd that there appears to be only one direction in which we travel through time under this model. One of the few reasons why I doubt both the big bang and our current understanding of time.
To add more confusion, for me anyhow. It appears the closer you travel to the speed of light you alter time relative to those not traveling so time it would seem is not a constant even if you percieve it so.
The faster one travels, the greater increase in mass for the object travel close to C or at C. What happens when an object falls into the event horizon of a black hole? It's subjected to it's immense gravitational forces, essentially slowing down the object to a point where to those outside it's reaches see's the object as stationary. Time hasn't changed, the only thing that has changed is how matter behaves under such intense forces. What this means is that there is no "time dilation".
One day someone will give me an explanation that will open the curtain, hopefully before I run out of time.
Hopefully this was enough to get you thinking.
reply posted on 16-9-2011 @ 04:09 AM by colin42
reply to post by sirnex
Thanks or taking the time to explain. I have read simular before and many other. I think my problem is that I am a hands on type and understand by building a picture in my head if you like.
So I can pick up things like evolution, biology and struggle with things like the concept of time and from other answers it apears I am not alone.
The strangest part is time is something we all march to, is in many equations but an explanation of it is so hard to make or understand.
When I have time I will attempt to understand it more but the clock is ticking and I have to go to work so I think I have the basics pinned down. The big hand is pointing to 12 and the small hand is pointiong to 10
Thanks or taking the time to explain. I have read simular before and many other. I think my problem is that I am a hands on type and understand by building a picture in my head if you like.
So I can pick up things like evolution, biology and struggle with things like the concept of time and from other answers it apears I am not alone.
The strangest part is time is something we all march to, is in many equations but an explanation of it is so hard to make or understand.
When I have time I will attempt to understand it more but the clock is ticking and I have to go to work so I think I have the basics pinned down. The big hand is pointing to 12 and the small hand is pointiong to 10
reply posted on 16-9-2011 @ 06:57 PM by sirnex
reply to post by colin42
[QUOTE]The strangest part is time is something we all march to, is in many equations but an explanation of it is so hard to make or understand. [/QUOTE]
The way I rationalize our concept of time in comparison to what I personally believe time to be is like this:
Without an arrow of time to 'march to', we're left with nothing but motion. The laws of motion are well understood for the most part. Things move. Things bump into other things and causes those things to move. Some things move in orbit of other things due to gravitational forces. Some things, like biological entities for example move under their own motive force. The key point here is thing's move all without having time as a fourth dimension of temporal travel.
The rationality for the inclusion of time into our equations is simple really. The very concept of time is an extremely useful tool. With the invention of time as a tool, man has been able to many thing's. We developed a method of tracking the exact moment to plant crops allowing agriculture to take off to unprecedented levels. We can now manage our population better by setting certain standards of when to wake, when to sleep, when to go work, when to take break.
When we attempt to understand time, right down to the smallest level of modern physics, we find that time simply doesn't exist. There is no smallest unit of time. It simply seems to vanish from existence altogether! What I think if truly going on in that area is our technology can't currently measure energy and subatomic movements beyond the plank level. We can't count how many oscillations a quark or gluon makes in comparison to our standard atomic clocks that measure the oscillations of a cesium atom. Without that ability to compare rates of oscillations, it's no wonder "time" appears to vanish!
[QUOTE]The strangest part is time is something we all march to, is in many equations but an explanation of it is so hard to make or understand. [/QUOTE]
The way I rationalize our concept of time in comparison to what I personally believe time to be is like this:
Without an arrow of time to 'march to', we're left with nothing but motion. The laws of motion are well understood for the most part. Things move. Things bump into other things and causes those things to move. Some things move in orbit of other things due to gravitational forces. Some things, like biological entities for example move under their own motive force. The key point here is thing's move all without having time as a fourth dimension of temporal travel.
The rationality for the inclusion of time into our equations is simple really. The very concept of time is an extremely useful tool. With the invention of time as a tool, man has been able to many thing's. We developed a method of tracking the exact moment to plant crops allowing agriculture to take off to unprecedented levels. We can now manage our population better by setting certain standards of when to wake, when to sleep, when to go work, when to take break.
When we attempt to understand time, right down to the smallest level of modern physics, we find that time simply doesn't exist. There is no smallest unit of time. It simply seems to vanish from existence altogether! What I think if truly going on in that area is our technology can't currently measure energy and subatomic movements beyond the plank level. We can't count how many oscillations a quark or gluon makes in comparison to our standard atomic clocks that measure the oscillations of a cesium atom. Without that ability to compare rates of oscillations, it's no wonder "time" appears to vanish!
reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 03:51 AM by sirnex
reply to post by sirnex
Just feel the need to explain this a little more and hopefully slightly better for everyone...
Well, ok... mostly for myself and because I'm just bored and thinking about it!
Most scientists do not really want to accept the concept of an always existing universe that has existed for infinity. The reasoning for this is, in their heads at least, an infinitely existing universe would allow for an infinite amount of outcomes. I don't see how this is really possible at all myself!
If we take two rocks and smash them together an infinite amount of times, they simply won't form an entire solar system with a giant water planet full of intelligent space faring dolphins that keep humans as pets. Why? Physics! Why they over look the issue of physics is beyond me! They're physicists for crying out loud!
An always existing existence would still have to follow whatever physical laws are in place, even if those laws themselves are capable of changing. If gravity changes slightly, the way matter and energy behave will automatically change in accordance. Thing's always move and always change, and so must existence itself!
Just feel the need to explain this a little more and hopefully slightly better for everyone...
Well, ok... mostly for myself and because I'm just bored and thinking about it!
Most scientists do not really want to accept the concept of an always existing universe that has existed for infinity. The reasoning for this is, in their heads at least, an infinitely existing universe would allow for an infinite amount of outcomes. I don't see how this is really possible at all myself!
If we take two rocks and smash them together an infinite amount of times, they simply won't form an entire solar system with a giant water planet full of intelligent space faring dolphins that keep humans as pets. Why? Physics! Why they over look the issue of physics is beyond me! They're physicists for crying out loud!
An always existing existence would still have to follow whatever physical laws are in place, even if those laws themselves are capable of changing. If gravity changes slightly, the way matter and energy behave will automatically change in accordance. Thing's always move and always change, and so must existence itself!
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