A Question for all Christians, from a fellow Christian

YES,ELIJAH AND MOSES APPEARED WITH JESUS IN THE TRANSFIGURATION, BUT I THINK THIS VERSE IS REFEREEING TO THE END OF DAYS ALSO KNOWN AS "THE DAY OF THE LORD", WE AS CHRISTIANS BELIEVE HE WILL BE ONE OF THE TWO WITNESSES OF REVELATION,THAT IS WHAT THIS VERSE IS REFEREEING TO

YES,ELIJAH AND MOSES APPEARED WITH JESUS IN THE TRANSFIGURATION, BUT I THINK THIS VERSE IS REFEREEING TO THE END OF DAYS ALSO KNOWN AS "THE DAY OF THE LORD", WE AS CHRISTIANS BELIEVE HE WILL BE ONE OF THE TWO WITNESSES OF REVELATION,THAT IS WHAT THIS VERSE IS REFEREEING TO

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

jmdewey60 begone Satan! You know nothing of the bible, you speak of lies.

I suppose you have a doctor's degree in theology or some such credentials.
My experience is associating with the editors of the leading theology journal published at the time (the seventies) on the topic of salvation by faith. So I knew personally the brightest minds in the world on the subject and traveled extensively to lectures and meetings for high level discussions on the subject.
You can talk to Pthena about that if you want because he was one of them.

reply to post by jmdewey60
As well as all who are reading

I present to you the truth, even if only metaphorically as is in the case of the judge. All of us believe the Gospel to some degree because, even if it's only enough to hate it because we prefer our own lifestyle. If you refuse to believe the truth, the is your decision and I wont press you any further.

Christians, pray for them. Do not ostracize them for their lack of faith.

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

jmdewey60 begone Satan! You know nothing of the bible, you speak of lies.

I do not wish to be associated with attitudes like these, thank you for not doing so.

reply to post by michaelwpayton

This is the invitation to accept the work of the cross. The spilling of His blood for our sins allows us to be forgiven. If you don't accept what He did, your not covered by the blood.

Jesus died to ransom the world.
That means everyone is "covered by the blood" (brought into the New Covenant).
What needs to be done in response is to live accordingly and to show yourself worthy of that blood.
No one has the power to exclude another of the Blood of Jesus.
Workers of iniquity will not enter heaven.
The ransom was to free us from the bondage of death decreed against us by the Law.
The freedom is to live under the Spiritual Law so as to bear fruits of righteousness for Christ.
We have "Christ in us" the hope of glory, so none need be ashamed (from not bearing fruit since now we have that ability to bear fruit). For to bear fruit we must since that blood was shed on account of the sinfulness of (and the status of being under condemnation) the world but not to cover the continued individual lifestyle of sin.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Jesus died in our place, for our sins. He is the propitiation for our sins. Or in layman's terms, our substitute.

reply to post by NOTurTypical
I am sure you would want to quote some Bible verses that explain all of that.

God is merciful and just. There is a punishment affixed for every transgression. This is required to meet the demands of justice. However, those who are willing to accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, can avoid paying the punishment for their sins. This is how mercy can be extended to all. I think where some people misunderstand is when it comes to accepting the atonement. IMO it is not enough to just say you believe. One must show, through actions, that one truly believes. If someone truly believes that Jesus is the Son of God, then they will repent of their sins, be baptized in His name, and follow Him. Anyone who does not accept Jesus as their Savior, will have to suffer for their own sins so that the demands of justice can be satisfied.

reply to post by MitchL61

. . .so that the demands of justice can be satisfied. . .

You seem to overlook the concept of an old covenant being replaced by a new covenant.
There is not a case by case blood atonement being made to cover individual sins.
It is a new system altogether because by the old system, there would be no need for a judgement since the whole world already stood condemned.
The "atonement" is a gift by God, to man, as a reconciliation, not a meeting of the demands of the old covenant.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I am sure you would want to quote some Bible verses that explain all of that.

Wow, AGAIN? I'll ignore your special pleading fallacy, (you quoted zero verses the post above mine), and provide support for others viewing this exchange.

Jesus died in our place, for our sins.

Isaiah 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him [Jesus] the iniquity of us all.
John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!”
Romans 3:25 God presented Him [Jesus] as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood.
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
1 Corinthians 15:3 …Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made Him [Jesus] who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
Hebrews 2:17 For this reason He [Jesus] had to be made like His brothers in every way, in order that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that He might make atonement for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 9:28 Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him.
1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by His wounds you have been healed.
1 John 2:1-2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

He is the propitiation for our sins. Or in layman's terms, our substitute.

“[W]hom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God” ~ Romans 3:25

“Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people” ~ Hebrews 2:17

“And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world” ~ 1 John 2:2

“Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins” ~ 1 John 4:10

reply to post by NOTurTypical
Which one of those verses says Jesus "died in our place" or "is our substitute"?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Which one of those verses says Jesus "died in our place" or "is our substitute"?

He took the punishment we owe for our sins. "The wages of sin is death". Do you even know what "propitiation" means?

Propitiation ~ "hilasmos" in the Greek which means:

1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

I'll give you a hint. Yahshua's death wasn't "appeasing" the Father's wrath on His sin. He was perfect and sinless. That leaves you with people other than Himself was His death an atoning "appeasing" for.

Ours.

reply to post by NOTurTypical
It can mean a lot of things.
You seem to be narrowing the definition towards what you want it to mean.
You have to look at the context and see that it is talking about a gift, one given by God, not one given to God.
This appeasement can be used to describe someone giving another person a gift to make them feel better after we did something that hurt their feelings.
Also the context indicates the purpose is the reconciliation by drawing us to God, not to somehow convince God to draw close to us.
This is why I make comments like, you have a backwards religion.
Whoever invented your religion took little snippets and patched them together to make something the opposite of what they originally meant.

reply to post by jmdewey60

It can mean a lot of things.

It was copy/pasted from Blue Letter Bible.

Christ is our propitiation for our sins.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

If all this you are saying is the foundation of salvation, don't you think there would be at least one verse in the Bible saying so?
I really don't get this attitude.
Evil doers go to Hell.
Doers of good go to Heaven.
You are making some philosophy to change that.
Suite yourself but philosophy is not persuasive to God.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

If all this you are saying is the foundation of salvation, don't you think there would be at least one verse in the Bible saying so?
I really don't get this attitude.
Evil doers go to Hell.
Doers of good go to Heaven.
You are making some philosophy to change that.
Suite yourself but philosophy is not persuasive to God.

Ahhh, salvation by works, hopefully your good works cancel out your bad ones? Christ was not the all-sufficient Savior of the world?

F.Y,I., I quoted FOUR verses telling you that Christ is the "propitiation for our sins", but I suppose four is the new zero huh??

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Ahhh, salvation by works. . .

"Works" are things in the Old Testament Law of Moses that we would not today think of as being important. Having a certain type of border on your clothes, would be one example. Not trimming your beard. All kinds of things that don't make you a better person inside.
Being a good, moral person is not works. That is fruits, which we are told we must produce or our faith is dead.
You seem to me to promote fruitless dead faith which is not faith at all but merely an intellectual assent to a concept, then moving on and continuing to sin as before you heard that message you agreed was probably right.
What you do is establish a philosophy where the new work to gain salvation is to believe. The more you believe in the philosophy, the more likely you are to be saved.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

. . .hopefully your good works cancel out your bad ones?

No, you stop doing evil.
If what you suggest was true, Jesus would not have told the man, "Be gone" who had done miracles and preached in his name. Jesus called him a worker of iniquity. So all the good things he did could not tip the balance to compensate for whatever bad thing he might have been doing up until he died. Jesus demands that people altogether stop working iniquity.
To illustrate the point: You have a believer who feels compelled to spread the message and do good works, so he does things in a charitable fashion but can't make money from it and it actually causes him a lot of extra expenses. He has to have a day job to support his works of Christian charity and he has a business selling bulk goods. He decides that he could make a bit more money if he just lightens the weights for his scale when he measures out what he is selling.
Jesus does not look at him and think, "oh well, all those people who were needy, and those people buying things from that man could afford it, so what is the harm?"

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Christ was not the all-sufficient Savior of the world?

Jesus died to ransom us from the old system of sin and death where everyone stood convicted and deserved to be killed as a complete race, all humanity wiped off the face of the earth.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

F.Y,I., I quoted FOUR verses telling you that Christ is the "propitiation for our sins", but I suppose four is the new zero huh??

I did not ask if Jesus was anything like that because that was not what you were talking about.
I was asking for verses to support a single concept that you described in two ways.
One way was, "Jesus died in our place to pay for our sins."
The second way was, "Jesus is our substitute."
What you are translating as, propitiation, can mean anything to create a reconciliation between two parties, no matter how you quote a definition.
To repeat myself, if this was the central concept to salvation, don't you think there would be at least one verse in the Bible saying so?
You seem to be avoiding the question by quoting verses that do not say, "substitute", or "die in our place", or "paying for our sins".