Majestica, kudos on being brave enough to post a Limbaugh quote on here. When you hit some of these people with that kind of logic, its like roaches scurrying when the lights come on. I for one, don't read well in the dark as some do.

Saphie, I'm not going to get into a debate over this with anyone. As you said, when I joined up, I knew the risks and what meagar financial rewards there were.
But tell me, are you sure that all the money for the victims of 911 were donations and not tax dollars?

Who do you think makes it possible for people to go to college ands coose what their careers will be? Who do you think makes it possible for the protesters to block traffic, cause traffic jams and prevent ambulances from going through town? (Speaking of which, how many lives or freedoms have been saved by the protesters?)

Who makes sure that you even have the chance to get a social security check if you do the absolute bare minimum for yourself? On the other hand, who protects you freedom to be the best you can be and plan for your "golden years"?

Absolutley, the soldier, the sailor, the airman, and those amazing marines. And don't forget the men and women serving in the Coast Guard!

I am the victim of public education and the product of typical, anybody can go to, colleges. There is no blue blood in my family, no Ivy League alumni, but I know why I was able to take student loans and to help make ends meet as I worked full time to go to college full time. Thank God we place emphasis on the military, there are a bunch of people that are very jealous and would love to rip us up like carion and take what you have.

Couldn't have said it better myself TC.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Saphie, I'm not going to get into a debate over this with anyone. As you said, when I joined up, I knew the risks and what meagar financial rewards there were.
But tell me, are you sure that all the money for the victims of 911 were donations and not tax dollars?

Who do you think makes it possible for people to go to college ands coose what their careers will be? Who do you think makes it possible for the protesters to block traffic, cause traffic jams and prevent ambulances from going through town? (Speaking of which, how many lives or freedoms have been saved by the protesters?)

Who makes sure that you even have the chance to get a social security check if you do the absolute bare minimum for yourself? On the other hand, who protects you freedom to be the best you can be and plan for your "golden years"?

Absolutley, the soldier, the sailor, the airman, and those amazing marines. And don't forget the men and women serving in the Coast Guard!

I am the victim of public education and the product of typical, anybody can go to, colleges. There is no blue blood in my family, no Ivy League alumni, but I know why I was able to take student loans and to help make ends meet as I worked full time to go to college full time. Thank God we place emphasis on the military, there are a bunch of people that are very jealous and would love to rip us up like carion and take what you have.

Ok all of this post by TC needs to be quoted for everyone to understand where I'm drawing my point.

Here it goes.

TC, you bring up the, "Who gives you the right to protest, who gives you the right to teach, to live your life the way you want to.....That's right, the Soldiers."

Well it seems we are at a crossroads.

Because if I'm not mistaken, the last time we actually fought for OUR freedom, was WW2.

And then, who was it that fought so you could be a doctor, lawyer, teacher, student, anything you wanted to be?

That's right...it was the doctors, lawyers, teachers, students and everyone else of those generations.

Get the point?

Since when did "Soldiers" become a caste of their own?

I am not a soldier, but by golly if need be, I'm a better one already than most volunteer soldiers are today.

While we have standing armies for quick responses and now for liberation other enslaved peoples.

In the end. Who fights for our freedoms, has always been ourselves. Not our "soldiers".

Because we have always been "our soldiers".

No. I fear I've missed the point. The doctor and lawyer didn't fight for my right to be a doctor or lawyer. They chose their profession in a free society that allowed them to choose. The society is free because the soldier stands between us and those who would take away our freedom.

Our freedom hasn't been preserved by the soldier since WWII? You seem to have missed the point of the Cold War. For me the Cold War got heated at times if heat is defined by hot lead launched in one's direction. Were it not for the soldier that stood the line between the light and the dark you'd now know the difference between the doctor protecting your right to choose and the soldier.

I am curious, what gives you the idea that you are better qualified to be a soldier than the active duty soldiers with fresh training? I was very good at my job when I wore the uniform but I'm well aware that times and tactics and equipment has changed and I am nowhere near the standards the soldiers of today are. Why are you better than these guys?

No, god, remember in Saving Private Ryan.

"I was a school teacher...English Composition."

Those men weren't "soldiers", they didn't join to kill, they didn't join because they wanted to spend their lives in the military.

They were School Teachers, doctors, students, farmers, politicians. (local lol).

Simple men, who did only what had to be done, and when they got home they were not soldiers.

They were auto-repair men, garage men, taxi drivers, telephone workers, business men. Not "Soldiers".

That is the whole point, since when do we honor the soldier alone? For the Lawyer, and the Fireman, and the School teacher, are every bit as much as Soldiers as well. When our freedom is at stake.

Oh and I am better qualified than most soldiers coming out of today's basic and AIT.

My best friends and I, had basically a "second father" to us, a CSM who served 2 tours in Vietnam as those "palm jumpers" And some other iconic figures I grew up around were Marine Force Recon, who knew quite a few tricks.

Just because I didn't go to become a soldier (which is more fate really than not...), doesn't mean I don't have what it takes. It's not like I sat around my whole growing up years and went to movies and hung out or whatever it is kids really do doing High School.

My friends and I were climing buildings and getting to the roofs and into factories and warehouses (never stole anything though )...we just lived a life of hunting and trespassing lol

Basic these days, my friends got back all were laughing, couldn't believe how they could make a reality tv show out of it, but I give my hats off to Force Recon and Rangers...I'm not an idiot. But they are a select few

[Edited on 8-4-2003 by 5POF]

No disrespect intended, but I'd have my hat off to all of them if I were you as they did go and for reasons of fate or whatever you did not. Whether it is the Apache driver busting up tanks, the ranger taking city blocks or the mechanics keeping the Bradleys rolling in that desert, they're all doing a great job.

Times aren't as they were in the days of WWII. We haven't the luxury of having a small peacetime cadre hanging around to train the next batch of warriors for combat when things happen. There's not necessarily time for the mechanic or doctor to become a tanker or a grunt. That would be nice. Taxes would obviously be lower and things would be more to the constitutional correctness, but there's nothing we can really do to change this unless we simply become isolationists, build a ballistic shield and point nukes at everyone and dare someone to play games. I think most agree that would not be a practical strategy.

TC you get so poetic...i'm just waiting for you go skipping up to a solider and hand him a dasiy or something.

the fact of the matter is folk can't live off the government forever. if a solider is injuried in the line of duty they are taken care of for the rest of their lives but if they die, we can't be responsible to raise their kids and create some sorta welfare for murder solider's dependant children.

there is a sorta noble thing about serving your country with your life. i'm all for it if folk wanna join up and fight these wars. but truthfully, this is not WWI-II. i see threats created by wack policy. change the policy and re-route the money you would have had to spend defending that policy to enhanceing our society beyond having the biggest gun and the slickest liars to create reasons to use them.

a solider in the end is no more noble than a teacher though both are needed and under-paid they accept that compensation and do their job to the best of their ability. just like you or i.

Saphie, I assure you that the soldier, willing to lay down his life for the rest of the society, is a more noble profession.
As far as taking care of his family in the event he dies, there is nothing wrong with that. It isn't as if they are making a killing in the military to begin with, and it is only until the spouse remarries. Most in the military are in the age group that they will want to remarry.

Wack policies are not to blame for every nation that dislikes us or wants to behave in a belligerant or dangerous manner. As a matter of fact, it has been proven numerous times the fastest way to need your military is to behave in a weak manner. Remember, you think logically and in a very kind and caring manner. Not everybody shares your point of view and likewise not every nation has love and fairplay at the heart of its agenda.
I still wish we could all meet in your world, but unfortunately we have to be ready for those who want to destroy it.

TC, you want to know why Rome fell?

Collapse of "Civic Duty." It's not a big mystery, the mystery is WHY...well it has hit America now too.

"Who cares, we have a volunteer army, let the Soldiers do it."

This is a collapse of civic duty, we still should all remember that it is the Citizen soldier that makes the difference.

My point is only that the "Honor the soldiers" is incomplete.

Honor who fights, for the baker isn't a soldier, and when he's done fighting he goes back to baking. The "Farmer Soldier" is what made America great. When you train professional soldiers, citizens forget their Civic duty.

What is a Soldier Soldier? They aren't all in it for as much as the need of the country, as that they can get 50k out of it, and college education. You'll find that few who joined for the express purpose of duty to God and Country but not as many.

WW2, Korea, Vietnam, you had your Citizen Soldiers, putting down their rolling pins and pocket books and taking up the gun to go fight.

Sadly they were all betrayed in Vietnam, and that will forever be remembered as the decline of American greatness.

No longer do the Brokers turn off their tickers, the bakers put down their pins, the bus drivers leave the wheel.

Recruiters say that even after 9/11 there has been no difference in the amount of Recruits per year.

That's not because Soldiers allow us to be free to do other things.

That's a lack of Civic Duty.

Don't attempt to give me a lecture in either civics, history or soldiering. I've studied the first two for more years and the third I know first hand.

Rome fell because of moral decay, decadence and narcissism. We'll fall for the same reasons, plus our denial of the God that led us to greatness to begin with. Its merely a matter of time.