This was an email sent to me, so sorry, no linkage folks!

"I think the vast differences in compensation between the victims of 9/11 casualty and those who die serving the country in uniform are profound! No one is really talking about it either, because you just don't "criticize" anything to do with 9/11."

"Well I just can't let the numbers pass by because it says something really disturbing about the entitlement mentality of this country. If you lost a family member in the 9/11 attack, you're going to get an average of $1,185,000. The range is a minimum guarentee of $250,000, all the way up to $4.7 million."

"If you are the surviving family member of an American soldier killed in action, the first check you get is a $6,000 direct death benefit, half of which is taxable. Next, you get $833 a month until you remarry. And there's a payment of $211 per month for each child under the age 18. When the child hits 18, those payments come to a screeching halt!"

Keep in mind that some of the people who are getting an average of $1.185 million and up to $4.7 million are complaining that it's not enough.

"We also learned that some of the victims from the Oklahoma City bombing have started an organization, asking for the same deal the 9/11 families are getting.
In addition to that, some of the families of those bombed in the embassies are now asking for compinsation as well."
You see where this is going, don't you? Folks, this is part of the parcel of over 50 years of entitlement politics in this country. It's just really sad.

Every time a pay raise comes up for the military, they usually receive next to nothing of a raise. Now the green machine is in combat in The Middle East while their families have to survive on foodstamps and live in low-rent housing.
"However, our own U.S. Congress just voted themselves a raise, and many of you don't know that they have to be in Congress just one time to receive a pension that is more then $15,000 per month, and most are now equal to being millionaires plus! They also do not receive SS on retirement because they didn't pay into the system."

"If some military people stay in for 20 years and get out as E-7, you may receive a pension of $1,000 per month, and the very people WHO placed YOU in harms way receive a pension of $15,000 per month! I would like to see our elected officials pick up a weapon and join ranks before they start cutting out benefits and lowering pay for our sons and daughters who are now fighting!"

"When do we finally do something about this???"
By Rush Limbaugh

I've recently been at conflict on this myself.

Several reasons.

1) Soldiers are putting themselves in harms way, and so are not entitled to benifits or such.

2) Soldiers, in order to maintain honor, efficiency, and duty, can not be persuaded by money, rather they should be impoverished so all they gain through combat is glory, and honor. Two things which will keep a country strong.

Rome fell because their soldiers became Mercenaries, and fought for the highest bidder.

We don't want that happening to America. It has a hard enough time staying out of debt, without paying 1million to every fallen soldier.

And we lose more soldiers a week to accidents than we have in Liberatin Iraq even including the 4 wounded in taking Baghdad last I heard.

In my opinion, soldiers should be pious, while 9/11 may also be tactless, I don't think it is comparable to the Military, since for my reasons, the military should have nothing to do with money.

As long as the families are provided for, it doesn't matter if they are made rich or not. The latter should be more true.

Napoleon said, "Give a man gold and he'll fight for you, give him a worthless medal and he'll die for you."

I can somewhat vaguely see the point you are trying to make, but in all honesty-it has 0 to do with the point Rush was making.

I don't think it's a matter of our men "fighting" "killing" and "dying" for our country so they deserve to be paid more then our congress. I'm pretty sure most people who sign on the dotted line to do all the above are well "aware" that they won't become millionaires while serving in the military. The point is: there are people like you who actually can find an arguement in this, and that is what's so sick about Americans with the same attitude as yours today. Don't you atleast think they are more deserving of the little they do receive? Don't you think the spouses and children are-ATLEAST? I mean really?? How can you possibly find a debate in this what so ever?
As long as the families are provided for??? Is that what you think? I think you better go get yourself a military friend real quick and discuss the above debate/quotes from yourself with them. I guarantee they'll put you in your place real fast!
You get back to me when you do.

Oh and btw...don't worry your secret is safe with me there "5POFM"

I think they deserve a page in the history books.

But we can't even find space to put WW2 in the history books, what makes you think these guys will get a page?

I don't think their families should recieve any benifits, just the ability to live well.

In Greece, they fed their "heros" for life, and such, this is a taxing burden on society, it led to their eventual defeate against Rome.

Rome, put their Soldiers into poor houses.

These are the two spectrums.

Rome eventually fell because their soldiers stopped fighting, and Rome had to resort to hiring "barbarians" and enlisting fringe peoples, who never had a clue what Rome actually was, and whose loyalty lay to their homes not Rome.

America did a great job, it provided enough to the families when a soldier died, and also gave the soldier the greatest reward, which was recognition.

At least that's the way we'd like to think of it. This is mainly only true with the several wars we've fought that actually mattered, and thus are remembered, Revolution, Civil, and WW2, the mexican-american war, the indian wars, the Spanish-American war, Korea, WW1, are pretty much in the back ground.

I don't see how my view point is "sickening".

I think America should place more emphasis in honoring their fallen soldiers, not showering them with Gold.

Which is why I'd like to see a policy implimented imediately to erradicate war protestors.

It's one thing to vote for politicians who will get you out of Wars that shouldnt' be fought.

It's another thing to desecrate the name of the Soldier, and spit upon their honor.

That's the problem, not the money.

I know what you are thinking and it does "sound" sincere. But wake up already! We are not living in the past where medals and a hand shake make for a strong military. Money is what drives this world and provides for those "in need." I know first hand all about what you get and don't get- as far as pay goes- in the military, and it's not right. I'm not going to sit here and reveal my finances with you but I can tell you this, especially being that we are living in another country right now, on a military base, the money that we get barely helps us through each month here. We were living off base on the economy and that was a flat out joke! The electricities alone here (only for American military) is $500. or more a month! So you can imagine what rent and everything else is. So now we live in crappy, low rental looking base housing, where our air condition has been broken for nearly a week(because it's "not a priority" they said) And you say this isn't incentive? To me this is flat out NOT taking care of those who defend our country and this sickens me. Less people are joining the military, and more people are getting out sooner. Why do you think that is?? There are more military families then most middle income families that are on foodstamps and WIC. How ironic we have to ask for the governments assistance yet we are working for the government!
And I don't see how you can say the people serving in the military want to be "showered" with gold? That's not at all what we want.
Let me tell you a little story, many years ago a military man who had 2 children and a wife hung himself because he could not provide for his familiy. You know what they gave the wife and kids-nothing. They put them on a plane and sent them back to their homeland and in the mean time tried to raise enough money to help her "get on her feet" by advertizing to "other" military families that there was a fund for them. Yes it was very dumb of the man to kill himself and selfish as well. But you know what? This just goes to show that the dependents of military people mean NOTHING! Once the military member is no longer living, they toss you out in the street with barely enough to start over-and yes that's what you have to do once you are not in the military-START OVER. They provide you a life and it's gone once your number is gone, you are gone and forgotten by those you served under for however many years and possibly died for!
Any questions??
Magestica

Originally posted by 5POF
I think America should place more emphasis in honoring their fallen soldiers, not showering them with Gold.

I think you are missing the point. Magestica isn't saying that these soldiers should be showered with gold, but rather they should be adequately compensated as opposed to barely making it. I have a friend who has four brothers and sisters and their father was killed in combat in a war for this country. At the time they lived on a military base and when he was killed, his wife received a pretty small check and was told that her and her family had 30 days to be off the base. How does a woman with five kids and mourning the loss of her husband just pick up and move with no income other than that check? They lived very poor for many many years. What happened on 9/11 was very unfortunate but 4 million dollars is quite a bit of money. Even one million dollars is more than enough to put an adequate roof over your head and feed your children. How can these millionaire congressman cut benefits? 5pof, you stated that "Soldiers are putting themselves in harms way, and so are not entitled to benifits or such". How can you justify that they aren't entitled to benefits?

I already agreed that yes they should be compensated to at least have live-able conditions.

But if you read Limbaugh's figures, this is the case.

They are paid a certain amount until they remarry, paid a certain amount per kid until that kid grows up.

All I disagree with is paying them MORE than what they need. I feel they already are paid all they need, Majestica your monetary problems are not because the government doesn't pay you enough.

ProudAmerican, how can you say they are entitled to benifits?

"Sign up today and die in battle and we'll pay your family 250,000 DOLLARS!" Techincally they already DO that. It's called the Life Insurance and it comes out of the soldier's pay and it goes to the beneficiary.

I'm not going to say they DID, but that pretty little check was probably for anywhere from 50k - 250k respectively, calculating for inflation because I'm assuming it was during Vietnam.

If you are left poverty stricken after a KIA, then you seriously screwed up. Life Insurance covers you, the government covers you, you do sorta well. Granted you won't be moving to a bigger house, but you won't be rolling little soaps into bigger balls of soap just to save a penny either.

[Edited on 6-4-2003 by 5POF]

You are really making me mad! Just thought I'd say that before I put you in your place!

Why do you "insist" on finding a debate here? You know nothing you are talking about? There is no debate from your point of veiw. And I only told you about my "monetary problems" to prove a point. To prove that the money pushers and handlers behind the military could gives a # about the dependents or survivors or even the members. Everything we get is all "sugar coated" whilst underneath all that sweet talk, you are left in debt! Maybe you can explain to me why the military grocery store is "dead as a doornail" between paydays and the shelves become quite empty on or around payday?? What does "that" say to me?? Well, that people here, rank or no, are living paycheck to paycheck, yet our husbands and wives are over there(you know where) or need I remind you?-fighting, killing and dying for us to remain free. It's not all about the $$$ signs here, it's about the way we are treated and I think Rushs' point just proves that-only with $$$ signs!
You don't know me and how I live and how my family and friends(military members) live. So why are you trying to argue with me? First you try it with history blah blah blah! And you even proved my point there..they didn't care then, and they don't care now..And it needs to STOP, before there is noone to fight and die for people like you!
You are only seeing what is sugar coated, and you need to remember that!

Oh and also, it's "Magestica" with a "G"..Atleast get it right so I can somewhat take you seriously!

You put yourself in debt. So don't be making the "government" to be the bad guy. It's a free economy. You spend more than you make you're in debt it's that simple.

I bet you use Credit Cards too.

There's no sense in trying to put me in my "place".

I'm right.

The Families of Fallen Soldiers should recieve a flag, and the soldiers shall have their names carved in stone for generations of all time to see.

If you think life is about having money, then you aren't worth fighting for.

Originally posted by 5POF
I'm not going to say they DID, but that pretty little check was probably for anywhere from 50k - 250k respectively, calculating for inflation because I'm assuming it was during Vietnam.

If you are left poverty stricken after a KIA, then you seriously screwed up. Life Insurance covers you, the government covers you, you do sorta well. [Edited on 6-4-2003 by 5POF]

You are correct, it was Vietnam and the check was a whopping $22k for his unemployed wife and 5 kids. They were left poverty stricken, but not due to any screwups.

I DON'T and have never had a credit card! So you've proven nothing with your close minded self! I never said we "are" in debt-did I? We aren't, we are not starving, we have a roof over our head and a car to drive to and fro..I'm just saying the decent citizines of the GREAT US of A get nothing, whilst the corrupt government and Congress live like kings! How can you possibly defend them? Oh wait! You must be one? Aren't freemasons part of the corrupt government? I guess it makes sense now that you would argue about this.
But you need not because YOU are wrong and I am right! So go argue with someone else in another forum about "Illuminati" "Freemasonry" and "Religion" stop trying to with me because trust me-you will lose on this arguement here! And quite frankly, I'm tired of wasting post on this!

Wait a second...now you are changing your story.

Perhaps you aren't such the "down-trodden" soldier's wife you were trying to make yourself look in this statement?

Originally posted by Majestica
Everything we get is all "sugar coated" whilst underneath all that sweet talk, you are left in debt!

Hmm, well if you weren't left in debt, then how can you say to me that this is what happens to other soldiers?

I volunteered at the Veterans Hospital, and some man really bunged up from Vietnam, gave me a stern warning.

"We're a Republic, don't you forget it. I never regret the service I've done to keep it that way."

He does't seem too crabbed out either about his predicament.

And so the Cookie Crumbles.

Rush and you, are making a mountain out of MOLE HILLS.

Our Military is treated excellently, and when a soldier dies, the family is at least given some relief. Which is more than can be said about MANY countries.

*EDIT* And ProudAmerican, 22k is a LOT of money in the 60s, 70s. Hell 22k can buy you a house in the south even to this DAY! I've seen decent homes in the south going for only 15k. Looks like all of your arguments just fell through the cheese grater.

[Edited on 6-4-2003 by 5POF]

5POF~
I thought we were done? Do you always have to be the last to get a word in?
I'll tell you what..I'm done here with you, your point and opinion means 0 to me as I think I know best since I am the spouse of a military man.
So I'll leave you to continue in your "illusional world" you wrapped around yourself or would "delusional" be a better term hummm??
Oh yea..it's like 7 at night here, so must be weee hours there...I wouldn't lose sleep over this ok?
Magestica( with a G)

I'm not in an imaginary world.

I just strongly view the world differently than you.

You think soldiers should live in Mansions.

I think soldiers should retire into tombs. Their families supporting their own ways, and the people of the nation respecting a day, to leave flowers at the nameless catacombs. Where only the history of great events are remembered.

And the countless names are tossed together, indestinguishable from the rest.

I don't want to "argue" with you about it (which is why I said "I'm right") I am right...this is MY opinion.

I think you and Rush are making a mountain out of a Mole Hill.

I think that 9/11 and our soldiers are NOT comparable. And while I don't mind if the families of the fallen are supported by government pensions and the like.

I think what's more important, is that the memory be honored.

What is money in that family's pocket if their loved one is a grass covered head stone somewhere, all but forgotten, with a mysterious "Veteran of XXXX" upon it, but no one remembers what that "XXXX" was?

How often do you stroll through the Grave Yard and stare down at the endless head stones, and see "Sgt. Army WW2" upon them.

Or "PFC Army WW1"?

Nothing to me is more worthy of a payment than some recognition, and if my family has bread then that is good enough.

You should wander the cemetaries some time.

Maybe the way I think, will finally become understandable to you, when you find that "PFC Army WW2, born 1915 died 1943" plaque.

They and their families don't need money.

Go to the link provided by Cassini.

Actually I want to relate a story though, my Grandma told me of her friend she hadn't seen for a long time, since High School.

She told this just a few thanksgivings ago.

She and a good friend of hers, a boy she had a "crush" on in High School, hadn't been heard of her since then. She left Joplin Missouri, and never saw him again.

And then she married a soldier, my Gramps, who was in the War, and things went from there.

And about 10 or so years ago, she went back to Joplin, to put a headstone for her mother, who never had a proper one. (Died when my Grandma was 3), and she was in the cemetary.

And there was her Friend she hadn't heard from since high school. Laying there in the cold earth since '43.

You really think money to the families, is worth dog crap? As long as they don't die from starvation, they aren't "owed anything", but that man's name should be in the registery that they plan for the WW2 memorial.

Which for some reason is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to make, and yet they have had a Vietnam Memorial for as long as can be remembered.

[Edited on 7-4-2003 by 5POF]

Apparantly, you haven't stumbled across the thread that was closed by Alien yet? You know the one where you proceeded to disparage every "female"? Perhaps you should go there and read what I wrote. You have Ticked me off to no end with what you said there, and therefore "we" will not debate again.
MaGestica

Bah, the females I know think the females in the military are stupid.

There's no point in them being there, and that's my stance. And I'm not alone on this, by men and women.

But staying on topic.

I find it deeply offensive that you will sit there, cross your arms and get in a huff.

When I tell you WHAT the soldiers who die REALLY need.

It's not money to their families.

It's monuments with their names, pictures, hell now we can even do a brief life story.

So humans 1000 years from now...will look up a random name out of curiousity, and see the humanity that they were, not just the name.

Think back to the Romans, their nameless legions are remembered for all time for simply their deeds.

Now we have the ability to make it so that OUR legions will be remembered through all time, not just through deeds, but through a little bit about them, who their family was, and pictures.

I've argued with you because you sit here trying to pedal the "give the families enough to live on when the soldiers die". When I tell you that is not what is necissary.

Give the soldiers the honor they deserve.

Money is worthless.

You are but a stone in the ground. And dust in the wood.


*EDIT* PS...sorry if my "allusions to the grave" make your life suddenly feel so empty. Which surely is why now you are getting even more psed, I can see it now in your bringing up an unrelated issue.

But you should force yourself to see the unescapable truth. You are but a mark upon a grave, and how long do you think that mark will be covered with flowers when you are gone? 10 years? 50 years? 100?

I wander these barely ancient graves and see entire families laid onto one stone, 1870s, 1860s, and no one brings them their flowers.

They are but forgotten.

And yet you are trying to make a material connection, with this "Rush Point." There should be no material connection.

The soldier has the opportunity to break away from material bonds, to become more than material, to become "historical". But it's taken away when we feel that caring for the family is more important than caring for the Soldier's soul.

Who cares about the family?

1000 years from now, do you think they (our future) will give a rat's butt about if the family got bread from the government or not?

It's a hard truth to accept but NO.

But if they would walk among the endless walls of heros. Where the names are scorn forever. And see the people who died to make their world what it is to them.

That is the eternal award. Worth more than the family's welfare.

And while I agree it would be best to support the family as if they were missing a bread winner, for they are. But it's more important to give honor to the dead, than money to the living.

In Russia they have their "Wall of heros". You go there and there are millions, MILLIONS, of names, etched upon the hallowed stone walls, and in the center is a fire that to this day has not gone out.

Now that is worth more than money.

That is what I want you to learn.

[Edited on 7-4-2003 by 5POF]

Maybe that is how you feel about yourself..but I don't feel like just a "mark on a grave" I know that when I die, I will be coming back, so no I don't feel like that. You have you opinions and I have mine-and they are quite different. You just come across really strong and therefore you seem very angry with yourself and the world around you.

*And BTW, for what it's worth-I do not agree with women in the military or anywhere near a battleground*
I think there was a pole about this, and others didn't agree with me. But I didn't persecute them either. And your reason and mine differ GREATLY
Magestica

Actually that's a good point, I feel strongly in Reincarnation too.

However I don't feel we as people live again, just as spirit, and I don't think our spirit truly remembers our lives.

Though maybe it can be scarred or marked by what happens...learning you could say, experiencing.

But as the person...I think they are deemed recognition.

One of the saddest things I've always thought about is, even if I or whoever, makes it BIG...you know, like Neil Armstrong first on the Moon.

1000 years from now, we'd be that man, that "hero" or whatever, in a new life, looking at ourselves and wishing we were them, or hoping we can be as good as them.

But you know, that's what keeps humans great, and aspiring, because we don't remember our past greatness, and so try to beat it.

We take leaps through generations, not through the generation, because Neil Armstrong went to the moon, and quit, he didn't have the aspiration to go to Mars.

But G-d forbid should it take so long, I can see his "reborn" soul in those little youthful eyes...staring up at that massive Saturn V and hoping that he can outlive Neil...irony be to him, that he actually is//was Neil

Rush Limbaugh and interesting in the same sentence. can't help it that's funny to me.

from my view point people that sign up for the military are fully aware of the compenstaion. we spend more money on the military than we do on education and when you factor in the intelligence agencies and black ops spending the inequality is crazy.

let's debate over why judges make more than teachers; not why folk families from 9-11 got more compensation than folk that die in military service. cause they really can't be compared. the money for 9-11 families came from private donations not the USG. without those donations the 9-11 families prolly would have gotten nothing but SSI check worth a loaf a bread and a half gallon of milk.




[Edited on 7-4-2003 by Saphronia]