It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Is it not Impossible for God NOT to exist?

page: 3
4
<< 1  2    4  5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 04:45 PM
link   

Originally posted by milkyway12
I have done a search on this topic and found a few threads that , in a way , correlated with what i am about to ask , but i just want simple straight answers from others.

I want ask a few questions and make it simple and quick as best of my ability. I am not trying to create a huge thread , but simply a what about this thread if you would be so kind to permit me to do so.

In Science ... there is a reaction or an action that creates or forms everything that happens around us. Something must act , to enable the next step of reaction to continue. I understand the Big Bang theory , evolution and so on or rather i understand why they are researching it.

Thanks to a poster below , ill simplifiy the above paragraph ... For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

However , i have a simple question , is it not impossible for God Not to exist? How could that first particle form ? How could that first few particles form to create a chain reaction from a Void? Nothing is there , i dont understand how it just appears out of no where , when there is nothing there. Zip ... its a Void.


Just in case you slept through your high school physics class, particles can and do appear out of nothing.


There are something like ten million million million million million million million million million million million million million million (1 with eighty [five] zeroes after it) particles in the region of the universe that we can observe. Where did they all come from? The answer is that, in quantum theory, particles can be created out of energy in the form of particle/antiparticle pairs. But that just raises the question of where the energy came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero. The matter in the universe is made out of positive energy. However, the matter is all attracting itself by gravity. Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together. Thus, in a sense, the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero. (Hawking, 1988, 129)


www.braungardt.com...


Unless .... unless you believe the universe has existed for ever and ever and ever , such as the Christian's view of God. If you understand that the Universe has been here forever and ever , how has it been here forever and ever .... there is a starting point to everything and a ending point to everything.



Where did all the matter and radiation in the universe come from in the first place? Recent intriguing theoretical research by physicists such as Steven Weinberg of Harvard and Ya. B. Zel'dovich in Moscow suggest that the universe began as a perfect vacuum and that all the particles of the material world were created from the expansion of space... Think about the universe immediately after the Big Bang. Space is violently expanding with explosive vigor. Yet, as we have seen, all space is seething with virtual pairs of particles and antiparticles. Normally, a particle and anti-particle have no trouble getting back together in a time interval...short enough so that the conservation of mass is satisfied under the uncertainty principle. During the Big Bang, however, space was expanding so fast that particles were rapidly pulled away from their corresponding antiparticles. Deprived of the opportunity to recombine, these virtual particles had to become real particles in the real world. Where did the energy come from to achieve this materialization? Recall that the Big Bang was like the center of a black hole. A vast supply of gravitational energy was therefore associated with the intense gravity of this cosmic singularity. This resource provided ample energy to completely fill the universe with all conceivable kinds of particles and antiparticles. Thus, immediately after the Planck time, the universe was flooded with particles and antiparticles created by the violent expansion of space. (Kaufmann, 1985, 529-532)




posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 05:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by bogomil
 

If we live in a self aware universe eminating from a fully informed Absolute in eternity - why not call that "God"..?


a/ Because there are presently (I've been told) 3.500 optional 'gods', and some estimated 50.000 opinions on the finer details. That alone should be enough to be wary of the word.

b/ 'Gods' are not just 'gods'. Some are minor, some major, some inside cosmos, some outside. The concept doesn't relate to anything even slightly precise in a context of the scientific inclusion you make. Science works with constants.

c/ There is already a number of 'labels' describing the concept you seem to strive towards. And insofar these 'labels' have any specific content, that content relates to 'gods' as 'inferior' (on a scale of ultimate reality/primary source).

This may sound as pedantry, but it isn't. I don't know how much time I've wasted in rejecting 'gods' being sneaked in through the backdoor, just on semantic associations.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 05:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


Sorry man, but you are not a true Christian if you believe in evolution. I suggest you read Genesis again.

May God show you the light of the demonic deception known as evolution.

My brother.

Yes, I am.

And with all due respect, your efforts are not helpful, in that they are setting up the faith for a fall in light of modern understanding of reality.

That said, Genesis contains an uncannily accurate cosmogenesis as was then understood, and a magnificent allegory about the emergence of dualistic consciousness, and Moses, who likely wrote it, was obviously an inspired genius. And that it contained a foreshadowing of the resolution to the problem of evil in reference to the seed of the woman which would crush the head of the serpent, is a marvel, and makes it a prophetic document.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 05:25 PM
link   
reply to post by milkyway12
 


Is it not Impossible for God NOT to exist?

It is impossible to see design and function apart from bits of data going against entropy in information. In other words, we expect a degradation of data to happen over time with bits of information. This is entropy in information. What we see instead is life going against entropy. An acorn contains the oak tree enfolded into strands of designed information that unfolds to the form of a 75 foot object. The object has function for myriads of other life. Without it, whole colonies of life are devoid of a domain in which to exist. All of this comes from bits of data that do not degrade over time. This is proof one that consciousness must pre-exist design and form to function. Entropy in information theory proves this.

Choice happens when a conscious entity collapses the wave function of indeterminate possibility. A choice represents a bit of information that is modified and improved over time to create adaptation of design and function. Again, the matter did not originate the consciousness, but consciousness originates matter by choice. This is a second proof that consciousness pre-exists matter.

Energy transmutes to form by information. We call this an image. An image is made up of light in the form of wave and particle. All particles have an associated wave. Apart form the wave that uses the information to produce particles to form, there is no form possible.

1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

If we face the truth given to us in the Bible, we realize that the universe is an artificial reality and we are artificial lifeforms to God's perspective. To our perspective, this reality is real. As the Bible suggests, we are inside His created image on the other side of His reality. We are also made in His likeness. Today is the only age in history when man possesses a metaphor for this type of Created reality. Consider the screen that you are using to read these words. It is an image. I am in this image represented by something physical, with words that tell a story, and consciousness connecting me to you.

God said, In the Beginning (Time), God created the heavens (Space) and the earth (Matter). Let there be light (Energy). God is always referred to as the Father (Light). The Son (John 1) is called the Word. A word is a wave. The Word is said to have spoken reality into existence. The wave moves the light and separates the darkness form the light. The third person of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit (Consciousness). This is YHVH, or I AM as He calls himself. YHVH is known as the Tetragrammation. Creation is a tetrahedron, or platonic solid. LINK

Are you made up of consciousness, particle and wave? You are a body that thinks and moves. Do you do anything else other than think or move to support your life? If you answer yes, you are wrong. Do you make your hair grow? Do you activate the cones and rods in your eyes for sight? Do you make the sun shine or the earth turn? Do you digest your food? NOPE! You think and you move the vehicle you occupy. That's it.

You exist and you did not do anything to exist. Therefore, there is something that allows you to exist. There are no accidents. God is the Bible God and you are His creation. His fingerprint is on physics and on you. God is one person projected into reality via the Trinity. You are what is projected so that God can be experienced by you, an artificial intelligence. The earth is a womb. You are walking the wilderness in a tent. The tent is the body of your temporary home.

LINK

Use this link to take a walk through the story of God using the 22 letters of the Hebrew Aleph-Bet. Be amazed. God loves you enough to open the door when you knock.


edit on 13-9-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 05:48 PM
link   
reply to post by SuperiorEd
 

That's just awesome! It never ceases to amaze how much the ancients knew.

Behold, what's old is new again!



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 05:59 PM
link   
reply to post by SuperiorEd
 


You wrote:

["Choice happens when a conscious entity collapses the wave function of indeterminate possibility."]

Isn't it about time you start learning some REAL science? What you describe above is the exact opposite of what Schroedinger wanted to demonstrate.

Quote: ["Again, the matter did not originate the consciousness,"]

An assumption, not a 'fact'.

Quote: ["but consciousness originates matter by choice. This is a second proof that consciousness pre-exists matter."]

No, it's a circle-argument, where your initial claim suddenly also 'proves' itself for no visible reason.

Quote: ["If we face the truth given to us in the Bible,"]

And why should 'we' face this 'truth'?. It's your mindtrip, not 'ours'.

Quote: ["we realize that the universe is an artificial reality and we are artificial lifeforms to God's perspective. To our perspective, this reality is real. As the Bible suggests, we are inside His created image on the other side of His reality. We are also made in His likeness. Today is the only age in history when man possesses a metaphor for this type of Created reality."]

While the overall idea has something speaking for it, the details, 'names' and 'places' could be filled out with several much better candidates than your mythological characters/events. Actually the bible is very low at the list of reality-checking.

Quote: ["God said, In the Beginning (Time), God created the heavens (Space) and the earth (Matter). Let there be light (Energy)."]

Trite claims don't become more true through endless repetitions. This has no real meaning at all, exactly as the first 10-15 times you presented it..



edit on 13-9-2011 by bogomil because: edition and typo



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 06:15 PM
link   
reply to post by bogomil
 

I thought you said in another thread that you're not a philosphical materialist and therefore find the monistic idealist (Goswami) argument compelling, namely that consciousness, not matter, is primary..



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 06:45 PM
link   

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by bogomil
 

I thought you said in another thread that you're not a philosphical materialist and therefore find the monistic idealist (Goswami) argument compelling, namely that consciousness, not matter, is primary..


I guess you refer to my answer to SuperEd (it's often easier, if you give a reference). And yes, I'm far from being a materialist, but I want to arrive to my conclusions through rational ways, because method is as important as answers, once things get a little complex.

And I have some very, very strong objections to SuperEd's methods. I would rather be ignorant than trying to answer anything his way.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 07:39 PM
link   
reply to post by milkyway12
 


To answer your question, yes, it is NOT impossible for God NOT to exist. (double negatives in the same sentence like this have always confused me, but......that's me)

The fact of the matter is that no one on this planet will ever know conclusively one way or the other, because no one was there when God or the Universe started out. That being the case, anything is possible.

It's like that age-old question; which came first, the chicken or the egg?

No one will ever know.





posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 07:59 PM
link   
reply to post by bogomil
 




["Choice happens when a conscious entity collapses the wave function of indeterminate possibility."] Isn't it about time you start learning some REAL science? What you describe above is the exact opposite of what Schroedinger wanted to demonstrate.


Generally speaking, quantum systems exist in superpositions. As Schrödinger's equations pointed out, the evolution of the quantum system is time dependent. The presence of the observer collapses the wave function by causing a leap in the basis states of indeterminate probability. This is the choice that causes the system to evolve again a different direction. Current insight into String theory confirms Schrödinger's observations and also confirms that the observer changes the state of matter. Obviously matter also affects the state of the observer. BUT (and this is a big but), matter cannot defy information entropy apart from consciousness. Consciousness pre-exists matter. Matter is the fabric of consciousness.


edit on 13-9-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 08:02 PM
link   

Originally posted by Taupin Desciple
reply to post by milkyway12
 


To answer your question, yes, it is NOT impossible for God NOT to exist. (double negatives in the same sentence like this have always confused me, but......that's me)

The fact of the matter is that no one on this planet will ever know conclusively one way or the other, because no one was there when God or the Universe started out. That being the case, anything is possible.

It's like that age-old question; which came first, the chicken or the egg?

No one will ever know.


Would that be like me telling you not to think the thoughts you are not thinking?


edit on 13-9-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 08:05 PM
link   
reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


Don't even kid yourself, you certainly don't serve the God of the bible or our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is absolutely no way to reconcile the following passages with evolution:

“And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man” (Gen. 2:21-22).

"And God said," Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let him have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created he him; male and female created he them" (Genesis 2:26-27).



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 08:10 PM
link   
reply to post by RevelationGeneration
 


Exactly. Have you read the book of Jasher? Check out chapter 4:

18 And their judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice, and the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order therewith to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon earth, all men and all animals.

This is a connection to Genesis ch. 6. The question to ask is: How did early man conceive of such a thing as taking a rib out or mixing animals unless it actually happened.


edit on 13-9-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 08:21 PM
link   
reply to post by Taupin Desciple
 


Sorry to burst your bubble but the age old question of which came first "the chicken or the egg" I can answer this question very simply…no other animal described in the creation account in Genesis began in the embryonic stage. It is safe to assume that God created the chicken first and then the eggs were sure to come. Just remember: don’t count your chickens before they’re hatched.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 08:23 PM
link   
reply to post by RevelationGeneration
 


I am a true Christian because I believe that Jesus was/is the Godhead, and I believe in the efficacy of his Great Work.

I love, and am in love with Jesus Christ. My relationship with him goes to the depths of my heart and soul. In this way, i do not "believe" IN him. I know him. And YOU, whatever your relationship with the living Christ, you cannot deny me my own experience of the love of God present in him. To a degree, your statements are hurtful, and offensive to my spirit, since you claim to be.a Christian, yet deny me as your Christian brother.


I now know precisely how the atheists must feel, but for an entirely different reason, except it make me very very sad, more than mad.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 08:27 PM
link   

Originally posted by milkyway12
I have done a search on this topic and found a few threads that , in a way , correlated with what i am about to ask , but i just want simple straight answers from others.

I want ask a few questions and make it simple and quick as best of my ability. I am not trying to create a huge thread , but simply a what about this thread if you would be so kind to permit me to do so.

In Science ... there is a reaction or an action that creates or forms everything that happens around us. Something must act , to enable the next step of reaction to continue. I understand the Big Bang theory , evolution and so on or rather i understand why they are researching it.

Thanks to a poster below , ill simplifiy the above paragraph ... For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

However , i have a simple question , is it not impossible for God Not to exist? How could that first particle form ? How could that first few particles form to create a chain reaction from a Void? Nothing is there , i dont understand how it just appears out of no where , when there is nothing there. Zip ... its a Void.

Unless .... unless you believe the universe has existed for ever and ever and ever , such as the Christian's view of God. If you understand that the Universe has been here forever and ever , how has it been here forever and ever .... there is a starting point to everything and a ending point to everything.

However if you understand an Eternal universe how am i foolish to believe in an Eternal God .... in my opinion a Eternal God sounds more ...... sound than a Eternal Universe does it not?

Forgive my sentence structures and typing i have seen several errors , but i just finished having to deal with an essay and i am currently tired of correcting my stupidity

edit on 04/30/2011 by milkyway12 because: (no reason given)

edit on 04/30/2011 by milkyway12 because: (no reason given)

edit on 04/30/2011 by milkyway12 because: (no reason given)



I didn't even read your post. Your title is a double negative...so I dont expect your post to be any more enlightning. Simple answer to whatever you posted: Its just as likely he exists as he doesn't. Easy.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 08:32 PM
link   
There never was a void and there never will be.

Energy is neither created nor destroyed.

Personally, I believe that intelligent life itself is proof for the existence of God.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 08:33 PM
link   
reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


Then why do you continue to teach lies and deceive people with your occult new age Christ consciousness propaganda? Because i cannot trust any man the only thing i can go on is your fruits, at the moment im not seeing any good one's from you. Making up your own scripture and trying to mix evolution with genesis, and saying Jesus will not return physically as a person, but rather as a "new dawn or age" is not biblical. The fact that your username is "NewAgeman" is a warning sign of a false prophet in its own.
edit on 13-9-2011 by RevelationGeneration because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 08:38 PM
link   
triple negative? impressive.

2nd



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 08:48 PM
link   

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Are you made up of consciousness, particle and wave? You are a body that thinks and moves. Do you do anything else other than think or move to support your life? If you answer yes, you are wrong. Do you make your hair grow? Do you activate the cones and rods in your eyes for sight? Do you make the sun shine or the earth turn? Do you digest your food? NOPE! You think and you move the vehicle you occupy. That's it.

You exist and you did not do anything to exist. Therefore, there is something that allows you to exist. There are no accidents. God is the Bible God and you are His creation. His fingerprint is on physics and on you. God is one person projected into reality via the Trinity. You are what is projected so that God can be experienced by you, an artificial intelligence. The earth is a womb. You are walking the wilderness in a tent. The tent is the body of your temporary home.


Dude. Awesome.

I have considered the fact that "I" am not my body at all, I only posess it, but I never took it as far as proving it by noticing how I don't do anything to sustain it, rather it more or less sustains itself. By me posessing it, I empower it. Ultimately, it is my choice whether or not I want to propagate my own existence in this body, but the nature of my consciousness chooses to live.

I am existence/consciousness itself. That is all.



new topics

top topics



 
4
<< 1  2    4  5 >>

log in

join