Pope accused of crimes against humanity by victims of sex abuse

Seeing how the Vatican is a country if he is found guilty can't he just write himself a pardon? if he comes to this country arrest him under the Rico act.

reply to post by alienreality


Man all i can say is the Pope is going to have one hell of a reckoning with God when he meets Him. Him and those pedo priests, that have a taste for sodomy.

You read about what Jesus did to the money lenders and gamblers pervading the Temple, how he kicked over their tables and rebuked them. Now imagine Christ pissed off and having the measure of his full power as Yahweh. These guys are going to wish God really was a myth before He's done with them.

That's stupid, I agree with the OP on all of his statements.
Viva la Raza!

Originally posted by Maxmars
reply to post by JohnySeagull

 

I can't argue with you there. The institution of the church has become it's own worst enemy.

The ends never justifies the means. One would think that spiritual folks would realize that.

I know the institution has willingly turned a blind eye to the most atrocious and inhuman realities as long as it served or at least did not impede their aims.

What saddens me the most is that there must be (by law of averages alone) many who have a calling to serve... but have no master to serve under except one that has lost its way.

I accept the call for justice... I only caution against the application of an indiscriminate reckoning in its place (which parasites and usurpers tend to prey upon.)

I like your thoughts on this. Even if the pope had committed sexual abuse it doesn't mean all priests do it. We need to prosecute these crimes just as we would any other. Here in the states it is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty....I like that..it is a great concept but often some twist it and change it to Guilty until proven innocent. That being said,

More crimes have been committed in the name of god and /or the Catholic church than anywhere else. Recall the Crusades, when Europeans colonized North and South America. It really is horrible.

Many think religion is a good thing. I find organized religion to be the biggest disservice to humanity that has ever existed. Great thread..thanks for starting it OP.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by alienreality

 

Man all i can say is the Pope is going to have one hell of a reckoning with God when he meets Him. Him and those pedo priests, that have a taste for sodomy.

You read about what Jesus did to the money lenders and gamblers pervading the Temple, how he kicked over their tables and rebuked them. Now imagine Christ pissed off and having the measure of his full power as Yahweh. These guys are going to wish God really was a myth before He's done with them.

Yes totally! Thinking about the true nature of what you mention, about popes and priests., who are supposed to be setting an example for followers of the faith, and to be defenders of goodness. To be guides and counselors of people, to help them define a path of faith and rightousness for their lives, but instead are raping and defiling children and adults that were supposed to be able to trust them...

These things are just too unbelievable to even fathom, and yet they are actually happening.. If they do not stop these things or ever confess and acknowledge these things then their punishment in hell could truly be legendary...

I am not advocating anyone be sent there though.. Not even my most despised enemies would I wish that upon..

Let priest get married and have families, done deal. Some of the of the apostles were married. The early reasoning for single priests, are long gone... Most are not being sent to third world countries... Bang goes the priest in those places. I know a Catholic priest who has children and grandchildren. How you may ask. He became a priest after his wife died.

Are there married Catholic priests? Yes

www.ewtn.com...

and another

catholicism.about.com...

one more

www.getreligion.org...

this is the last, check for others

www.ketv.com...

how sad that so many on ATS and around the country take glee in the accusations against the Catholic church and the Pope.

Since when did atheists take over this site?

I'm not religious and no "defender of the faith," but I can recognize hypocrisy when I see it!

How many members go, attended or send their children to U.S. piublic schools? How many of you would wish what you gllefully hope for of the church for the U.S. public school system, the teachers unions, and the school boards that routinely cover for and shuffle-around the thousands of pedophiles preying upon our children right here under your noses?

Conspiracy of Silence: US Public Schools sex abuse goes unreported and unpunished

Studies repeatedly show that millions of children have been and will be molested during the K-12 years in our public schools!
Where's the outrage? Where's the call-to-arms?

I refuse to jump on the "religion is evil" bandwagon until I see some sensible acknowledgement of the pedophilia problems festering in our own neighborhoods.

When will any one of the posters in the previous 5 pages of the thread, or afterwards, take a stand against the REAL and GROWING threat, instead of punching at their favorite religious or moral targets?

When you call for the imprisonment of the Pope, will you do the same for the Secretary of Education or his boss? When you brand priests and bishops as criminals, are you prepared to do so for principals and superintendents?

Open your hypocrite eyes, get off your high horse, and look at what's happening right in front of you!

jw

reply to post by Papagrune

Let priest get married and have families, done deal. Some of the of the apostles were married. The early reasoning for single priests, are long gone... Most are not being sent to third world countries... Bang goes the priest in those places. I know a Catholic priest who has children and grandchildren. How you may ask. He became a priest after his wife died.

While I agree that priests should be allowed to get married...I'm not entirely sure if would stop the problem of pedophilia....especially with young boys... There are many married men who still have a problem with pedophilia.. so I don't think marriage is a cure for sexual preferences of that nature.

Also many of the priests joined the priesthood..back in the day when homosexuality was seriously frowned upon in society. ...it was their way to be with the sex they preferred, without causing suspicion within society.

reply to post by jdub297

When you call for the imprisonment of the Pope, will you do the same for the Secretary of Education or his boss? When you brand priests and bishops as criminals, are you prepared to do so for principals and superintendents?

If a secretary of education, or a principal, or superintendent has been involved with covering up 1000's or maybe more..of abuse cases..and been responsible for shuffling the abusers to a new post..where they know the abuser will victimize again... without a care or thought for the children...damn straight ..they need to be imprisoned.

That is just plain wrong..and criminal.

I don't know that letting priests marry would solve this problem.

I know many priests have had affairs with women and men. These happen due to the enforced celibacy and perfectly understandable. But abusing kids is something different? Do all men that are not in relationships abuse kids? That makes no sense.
Many cases of abuse outside of this church scandal often involve married men who even have their own kids.
Many cases of child abuse often reveal that the perpatrator of the crime has often been abused themselve as a child. Its a very complex issue and to suggest allowing marraige to prevent all this is simply not the answer.

i dont know if pope knew about this but catholic church high bishops mostly did i say hurt them where it hurts them the most their pocket book. make them pay restitution to all there victims whether in cash or property and cut out their taxfree status for 15 years as punishment

Originally posted by jdub297
how sad that so many on ATS and around the country take glee in the accusations against the Catholic church and the Pope.

Since when did atheists take over this site?

I'm not religious and no "defender of the faith," but I can recognize hypocrisy when I see it!

How many members go, attended or send their children to U.S. piublic schools? How many of you would wish what you gllefully hope for of the church for the U.S. public school system, the teachers unions, and the school boards that routinely cover for and shuffle-around the thousands of pedophiles preying upon our children right here under your noses?

Conspiracy of Silence: US Public Schools sex abuse goes unreported and unpunished

Studies repeatedly show that millions of children have been and will be molested during the K-12 years in our public schools!
Where's the outrage? Where's the call-to-arms?

I refuse to jump on the "religion is evil" bandwagon until I see some sensible acknowledgement of the pedophilia problems festering in our own neighborhoods.

When will any one of the posters in the previous 5 pages of the thread, or afterwards, take a stand against the REAL and GROWING threat, instead of punching at their favorite religious or moral targets?

When you call for the imprisonment of the Pope, will you do the same for the Secretary of Education or his boss? When you brand priests and bishops as criminals, are you prepared to do so for principals and superintendents?

Open your hypocrite eyes, get off your high horse, and look at what's happening right in front of you!

jw

Exactly! and well said.... I do what I can, when I can to take a stand for these types of crimes. It doesn't matter who perpetrates it or what organization he or she is associated with it. They should be prosecuted plain and simple. Those around them who cover it up should be held responsible as well.

reply to post by JohnySeagull

Many cases of child abuse often reveal that the perpatrator of the crime has often been abused themselve as a child.

I'd like to see some statistics on this. While many times it's true that the survivor of abuse was in fact abused themselves... it's a myth, and total BS that the survivor will turn into an abuser. I hope everyone knows that.

Here are some disturbing numbers... and this is just up to 2002... Add another 10 years to the stats below:

US clerics (priests, deacons, bishops, etc.) accused of abuse from 1950-2002: 4,392.
About 4% of the 109,694 serving during those 52 years.
Individuals making accusations: 10,667.
Victims' ages: 5.8% under 7; 16% ages 8-10; 50.9% ages 11-14; 27.3% ages 15-17.
Victims' gender: 81% male, 19% female
Duration of abuse: Among victims, 38.4% said all incidents occurred within one year; 21.8% said one to two years; 28%, two to four years; 11.8% longer.
Victims per priest: 55.7% with one alleged victim; 26.9% with two or three; 13.9% with four to nine; 3.5% with 10 or more (these 149 priests caused 27% of allegations).
Abuse locations: 40.9% at priest's residence; 16.3% in church; 42.8% elsewhere.

Known cost to dioceses and religious orders: $572,507,094 (does not include the $85 million Boston settlement and other expenses after research was concluded).

It should be noted that 30% of all accusations included in these figures were not investigated as they were deemed unsubstantiated (10%) or because the accused priest was dead or inactive (20%). They do not include allegations that were "unfounded" or later recanted.

In any case, all these figures are widely suspected to be grossly underestimated. For example, the late Fr. Tom Economus, former President of the Linkup, a national survivors' advocacy group, said back in the mid-90s that he knew of "1,400 insurance claims on the books and that the Church has paid out over $1 billion in liability with an estimated $500 million pending."

He also said that over 800 priests had been removed from ministry and that there might be as many as 5,000 with allegations against them, which is not that far off. He often claimed that by far the most calls he received from all victims of any kind of clergy abuse were those from males who suffered abuse in their youth in the Catholic Church. Certainly the numbers, which show that the highest number of victims were 12 year old boys and that 80% of the abuse was homosexual in nature, validate that anecodotal evidence, too. In fact, while the numbers of young children and girls did not vary much, the report shows an astounding six-fold increase in the abuse of boys aged 11-17 between the 1950s and 70s. And the figures for males stayed high through the 1980s.

And nothing has been said about multiple abusers and rings who swapped victims around like trading cards and ritual abuse...

Not to mention the female victims and offspring out there as a result...

Originally posted by Skorpiogurl
reply to post by JohnySeagull

 

Many cases of child abuse often reveal that the perpatrator of the crime has often been abused themselve as a child.

I'd like to see some statistics on this. While many times it's true that the survivor of abuse was in fact abused themselves... it's a myth, and total BS that the survivor will turn into an abuser. I hope everyone knows that.

I can't understand what you mean in the second sentence but I get the idea you maintain my point is BS.

I don't have anything to back up this statement. I have read reports on many abuse cases and it was often stated that the perpatrator of the crime was abused as a child themselves. I have no idea if this is all BS by the perpatrators.
But you only have to go back a few generations when sex wasn't spoken about by anyone. It was a completely taboo subject for most of the world. People just don't think about it ,but abuse must have been enormous. Even today the charity that helps people with this is called 1 in 4. This is because it has been shown that 1 in 4 children will be the victim of abuse before they are 18. That is a huge portion of the population.

I think it is perfectly possible that there could have been huge abuse in the past and therefore some of those that were abused growing up thought this was normal and went on to abuse others.

Maybe i'm totally wrong. I just think it is possible.

reply to post by JohnySeagull


No... I don't mean that your point is BS, your point is correct. What I mean to say is if anyone thinks that an abused child will grow up to be an abuser him or herself... that is BS.

1 in 4 women
1 in 6 men

Anyway, I was lookin for some stats on clergy abuse but found nothing other than what I've already posted.

Originally posted by JohnySeagull


The world we live in is changing so dramatically.

I am not celebrating. I am just glad that this activiity is finally being treated as it should have been.

Its amazing to think that the Pope is in this sitaution. The leader of one of the biggest religions in the world.

"Amnesty International's latest annual human rights report, which cited the Holy See for the first time, concluded there was widespread evidence of child sexual abuse by members of the clergy over past decades, and an "enduring failure" of the Catholic church to seek redress."

www.guardian.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

The problem with this stuff is people make up so much of this crap for their own intentions its hard to know what is real or not anymore.

reply to post by cosmicexplorer

The problem with this stuff is people make up so much of this crap for their own intentions its hard to know what is real or not anymore.

No..the actual problem with this stuff..is that many many do not disclose what has actually happened...due to feeling deeply ashamed of what they were involved in. Men tend to keep things like this..a dirty little secret from their past bottled up inside...that they want to forget..and move on from.

I totally understand why they would want to do so..because reliving the memories is painful and humiliating. Grown priests who manipulate boys into having sexual activities..are fully aware of this, and use it to their advantage..

I would venture to say..for every false accusation put out..for the purpose of greed..there are 100's maybe thousands..that never get talked about..and if they do..never get brought to court...and only after years of burying will some victims finally confess to a doctor, or counselor...about these abuses that happened in their childhood.

Originally posted by gabby2011

... I would venture to say..for every false accusation put out..for the purpose of greed..there are 100's maybe thousands..that never get talked about..and if they do..never get brought to court...and only after years of burying will some victims finally confess to a doctor, or counselor...about these abuses that happened in their childhood.

Not that I am looking to argue with you over this... but in my opinion that is some serious hyperbole there.

Hundreds - thousands? Upon what are you basing this? Is there some secret society of adults molested by clergy as youths that only you know about?

This kind of supposition is exactly the kind of emotionally driven thing I fear will keep us from every knowing the truth, or ever knowing who is and who isn't capitalizing on a tragic circumstance for their own enrichment or glorification.

I don't doubt at all that there are people who would rather move on and relegate the past abuse into distant memory. I might have hesitated to argue had you supposed smaller numbers.

This kind of fanning of the flames leads me to believe it's more about hating the church itself than the evil some of it's clergy have done. That leads to the thinking about 'hurt them where it hurts most - their pockets".... guess what... it's not the offenders' pockets... its the church's pockets... it's not their money.... it's the church's money.. at some point you have to wonder about why people are so keen to punish the entire congregation of the religion... and then I remember that most of us are a product of group-think.

Just out of curiosity, are you going to look next into the public school systems, the "local" community activities, and all the other paces (like a person's home) where these horrors occur? Or is it only the Catholic community that deserves to be punished for these crimes?

I know that in small rural areas, third world countries, and marginally educated cultures; priests have much more power to intimidate and silence people. That reality needs to be changed. But is it your contention that children of western industrialized communities were rendered silent by the church itself? Exactly what, by your estimation, would constitute justice for these crimes? I am sort of expecting you to say the abolition of the Catholic Church or something.

I'm not meaning to poke at you or anger you, but I am curious.

reply to post by cosmicexplorer

The problem with this stuff is people make up so much of this crap for their own intentions its hard to know what is real or not anymore.

Imagine being a little kid and keeping it a secret because you're afraid no one will believe you? Imagine being an adult still keeping the secret and a host of emotional problems that you can't explain to anyone because you're still afraid that no one will believe you? The problem with this stuff... are statements like that.

reply to post by Maxmars

I'm not meaning to poke at you or anger you, but I am curious.

Well..I personally know of people who were abused by clergy..and only spoke out about it..privately to family members..much later in life...and did not want to go public with it at all..and were horrified at the idea of sitting in a court room to tell their story.

Back in the day...no one talked about these problems in the church..as much as they do today...and I honestly believe there were a lot more incidences..that will never be known to the public.

So..I am estimating..that if I know at least 5 people who have never brought their claims to court... how many more are out there..?

This is not something people feel comfortable rehashing.. and many want to leave it in the past..and try to forget it.. The idea of airing this in public.. is something they avoid at all cost. Even money won't entice these people to join a class action suit.

Let me ask you this...if YOU had been sexually manipulated and taken advantage of..in your young pubescent years.. would you speak out..and try and get justice for it through the court system?..knowing full well that your dirty laundry would be aired..you would be exposed to some brutal cross examination....and your children and beloved spouse would also be thrown into the public limelight because of it?

I am not only asking you Maxmars this question... but to anyone who may want to answer that .