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Pope accused of crimes against humanity by victims of sex abuse

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posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by Skorpiogurl
reply to post by Chance321
 


Like I said in a prior comment... just because my plumber is a drunk it don't mean that ALL plumbers are drunks!

And no, I didn't take your comment as saying anything negative about the survivors at all. It's most definitely a heinous crime and should not go unpunished. But come on... If Mr. Smith next door perpetrates a crime against me I'm gonna go after Mr. Smith next door, not his entire family...


Ah.. but you nailed it !

In these instances the fact is you CAN go against the entire family (ie, the Church) and that represents a windfall for the lawyers who are part and parcel of these cases.

I believe one of the contributing factors of this issue, the very reason the church sought to suppress or hush the victims is because they counted on this liability to financially damage the church as a whole. Of course, they only exacerbated the problem and by doing so brought shame upon themselves even further. Poor leadership in action - what you get when traditional ivory-tower oligarchs rule rather than serve.

If these matters had been allowed to be prosecuted unhindered by clerical status - each community could have purged themselves of any wrongdoers... but instead the Church insisted to handle it as they had done in past times... a practice which no longer fits into today's society. Thus the victims began to have no alternative but to seek redress outside the church... enter the marketeers and PR firms, the lawyers and media moguls... hence the theater of it all arose... precisely because you could sue the whole family and not the criminal.

You can't undo the damage done; so lawyers move us to think that hurting the offender's institution represents justice. Where are the criminals in all this....have they been tried, are they serving time? If so... why does the family deserve punishment? The only reason I can see is that they continue to harbor and otherwise shield guilty parties from prosecution.... is that the case? Or is it that there can never be enough punishment for what they didn't do... which is turn over the clergyman to the police?

How come we don't see this kind of impetus to deal with obscenely profiteering public servants, con-men on the banking system, Hollywood drug dealers, military mass-murderers?.... because unlike suing the church... we would end up suing ourselves.




posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by Chance321
reply to post by Skorpiogurl
 


Sorry, littttttle misunderstanding, my fault. I didn't mean it to sound like I was taking issue with you, just restating my position to everyone else, my bad.


Nope, no misunderstanding at all. I didn't take it that way. No worries



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by Maxmars

Originally posted by Skorpiogurl
reply to post by Chance321
 


Like I said in a prior comment... just because my plumber is a drunk it don't mean that ALL plumbers are drunks!

And no, I didn't take your comment as saying anything negative about the survivors at all. It's most definitely a heinous crime and should not go unpunished. But come on... If Mr. Smith next door perpetrates a crime against me I'm gonna go after Mr. Smith next door, not his entire family...


Ah.. but you nailed it !

In these instances the fact is you CAN go against the entire family (ie, the Church) and that represents a windfall for the lawyers who are part and parcel of these cases.

I believe one of the contributing factors of this issue, the very reason the church sought to suppress or hush the victims is because they counted on this liability to financially damage the church as a whole. Of course, they only exacerbated the problem and by doing so brought shame upon themselves even further. Poor leadership in action - what you get when traditional ivory-tower oligarchs rule rather than serve.

If these matters had been allowed to be prosecuted unhindered by clerical status - each community could have purged themselves of any wrongdoers... but instead the Church insisted to handle it as they had done in past times... a practice which no longer fits into today's society. Thus the victims began to have no alternative but to seek redress outside the church... enter the marketeers and PR firms, the lawyers and media moguls... hence the theater of it all arose... precisely because you could sue the whole family and not the criminal.

You can't undo the damage done; so lawyers move us to think that hurting the offender's institution represents justice. Where are the criminals in all this....have they been tried, are they serving time? If so... why does the family deserve punishment? The only reason I can see is that they continue to harbor and otherwise shield guilty parties from prosecution.... is that the case? Or is it that there can never be enough punishment for what they didn't do... which is turn over the clergyman to the police?

How come we don't see this kind of impetus to deal with obscenely profiteering public servants, con-men on the banking system, Hollywood drug dealers, military mass-murderers?.... because unlike suing the church... we would end up suing ourselves.



I agree.

In my opinion there is no amount of money in the world that would cause me to accept the damage done or be silenced. Unfortunately, like you indicated, what choice do these people have.

The whole thing is just digusting and in the end the church will stay the same, the victims will be silenced with huge amounts of money and clergy, and other perpetrators, will continue to get away with this type of crime.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 03:04 PM
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reply to post by Maxmars
 


I can understand you point of view.

From my point of view, I live in a very small country.

Over the last few years we have had to digest several comprehensive and very detailed reports on the abuses that were carried out.

The church was responsible for all of the institutions in my country. They ran all of them. They preyed on the children in these institutions. We are only hearing their stories now because they have grown up. They have seen many of their friends commit suicide that suffered like they did within these institutions. They had no voice.

Those that were part of a community and complained and spoke out were threatened by the church, warned to keep quiet. And people were ignorant and scared. They listened to the church. They were ashamed. They kept quiet out of fear. The abuse was far reaching and widespread across the country. The church in my country kept this abuse quiet under instrutions from the Vatican. Priests have been moved around for years to different locations around the world. Often re-offending in different locations.

The Vatican believe the most important thing in life is getting Christ's message to the people and it doesn't matter what happens along the way. Its that simple to them.

They did their best to obstuct the investigations. An organisation like this needs to be shutdown. If people want to get together and pray, great, but they can form their own church communities.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 03:14 PM
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reply to post by JohnySeagull
 



great post..and a lot of truth to it...

not so sure about this though



The Vatican believe the most important thing in life is getting Christ's message to the people and it doesn't matter what happens along the way. Its that simple to them.



I'm thinking it isn't the most important...because they would not be stinking rich...own so much land.. etc.

I believe the most important thing to the vatican is control !



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by Skorpiogurl
reply to post by Chance321
 


Like I said in a prior comment... just because my plumber is a drunk it don't mean that ALL plumbers are drunks!

And no, I didn't take your comment as saying anything negative about the survivors at all. It's most definitely a heinous crime and should not go unpunished. But come on... If Mr. Smith next door perpetrates a crime against me I'm gonna go after Mr. Smith next door, not his entire family...


OK.

So let say Mr Smith the plumber abuses a kid. The kids parents find out. They go to the police and they go to Mr Smiths Boss. Then Mr Smiths Boss says that we can't tell anybody about this because it will damage the plumbing industry. He threatens the kids parents saying they will never get another plumber. He tells them to stay quiet.

Mr Smiths Boss had to say this because the most gifted plumber (the holy plumber) in the whole world gave him this advice when he sought instuctions on how to manage this crisis.

Nobody said anything about going after all the plumbers in the world. But maybe its about bloody time the bosses answered a few questions.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 03:19 PM
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To me, the most profound part of this story is the implication of the Pope, himself. The Pope is INFALLABLE! Isn't he, or did the church change that?

Anyway, the Vatican is taking this very seriously, as they are hiding their money.Vatican: Catholic Church Filing Bankruptcy to Protect Assests From Sex Abuse Lawsuits

Vatican garage sale? I'm so there!

This has been a long time coming, Sinead O'Conner has been fighting for this for the past 18 years. Here's her "Declaration of War on the Vatican." At the end, she takes a photo of the Pope and tears it up on live national TV, Saturday Night Live!
youtu.be...



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 03:19 PM
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reply to post by JohnySeagull
 


I can't argue with you there. The institution of the church has become it's own worst enemy.

The ends never justifies the means. One would think that spiritual folks would realize that.

I know the institution has willingly turned a blind eye to the most atrocious and inhuman realities as long as it served or at least did not impede their aims.

What saddens me the most is that there must be (by law of averages alone) many who have a calling to serve... but have no master to serve under except one that has lost its way.

I accept the call for justice... I only caution against the application of an indiscriminate reckoning in its place (which parasites and usurpers tend to prey upon.)



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 04:35 PM
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reply to post by JohnySeagull
 


Changing? This bull has been going on forever.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by JustinSee
reply to post by JohnySeagull
 


Changing? This bull has been going on forever.


It is changing..compared to what happened centuries,and even decades ago.

It is much more accepted now to speak out about it..and people are not so afraid.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 05:10 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 06:12 PM
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I am not catholic. I really like John Paul II, the new pope not so much. When I was in elementary school our janitor was arrested for sexual abuse of boys. I swear the new pope looks like him. Whenever I see pics of the guy, I get the creeps. Not his fault..just what he reminds me of. ewwww. He has not be convicted of a crime.....but..anything is possible in this horrible world these days.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by UniverSoul
reply to post by JohnySeagull
 

about time
anyone who sticks up for pedophiles, covers up their crimes or pays off their victims is
JUST AS BAD AS THE PEDOPHILE!
its time to end the ignorance of religion..for too long it has ruled over us for no other reason than they said so..
the fact that older generations were forced to believe and fear in it should tell us that these people are obviously sick power and money hungry freaks
deny ignorance people

edit on 13-9-2011 by UniverSoul because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-9-2011 by UniverSoul because: (no reason given)


Well said. I couldnt agree more. The Pope is as guilty as any pedophile, if not actually one himself. hanging is too good for him.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by User8911

Originally posted by LightAssassin
Woohoo. The church is finally crumbling. The bible even mentions this, and I'm not religious.


That doesn't mean we should discard the fact that the devil is real, never forget that!


If there is a devil, it is the pope. Evil to the core.He and the Vatican should be nuked to a glass crater.The church is exactly what it claims to oppose.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 07:24 PM
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Originally posted by Blanca Rose

Originally posted by Taupin Desciple


Poor publicity that that the catholic church brought on themselves by being one of the largest conspiritors of continuing pedophelia that the world has ever known. You can add brainwashing to the laundry list of charges as well.


True. Having grown up in a town where a local parish priest was convicted and defrocked over molesting children, some of whom were my friends, I have some idea how this works. It took years and years for all of this to happen, so, while change would be a good thing, don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen.


Like it or not, the tide is turning against the catholic church. And it's not turning their way either. It's being turned by the common man, not the authorities, as evedenced in the article. That's a good thing because the common man is the entity that can affect positive change. If you don't want to stand up against a very negative and destructive authority, that's your peorgative, but don't sit there and try to tell people that doing something is having no effect while doing nothing is. That makes no sense.


I'm not even Catholic. So, you think just the common man will affect all this change, with no nevermind for the MILLIONS of devout Catholics are still sitting in pews? And what exactly is it that you have done, personally, to fight this evil entity, called the Catholic Church? It won't be until this entities own devotees have had enough, that any of this will change.


I can understand that some people need religion. There are many people who need the comfort of knowing that something bigger than them is in charge. That there is some sort of meaning, purpose and structure in their lives. But that comfort shouldn't come at the expense of their children getting molested by the same people giving that comfort. That's not only wrong, it's sick.


Ok, tell you what, I live in Arizona, too. So, how about this sunday, you take hundreds of copies of this article, and put them under the windsheild wipers of all the mass attendees. Think it will matter?



Years ago I had to go through a lot of counseling and 12 step programs for alcohol addiction in Mesa. At the time, I was surprised at the amount of people in these classes and sessions who introduced themselves as recovering catholics. What they meant by that was by that time, they realized that this, the catholic religion, was at the heart of their problems. Some of these people were sexually abused while some were not, but they all had one thing in common; they saw how impersonal and uncaring the church was to their personal feelings and problems. They were all about doing things and teaching in the traditional methods. Their parents, most of them lifelong devout catholics, were the same way because they simply wanted to follow the church's teachings in lockstep witthout any thoughts of their own.

Keep in mind that most of these people were from back east because some of these programs are the best in the nation. Some parents shipped their kids out here because of that, but most of them because their kids were a "family embarresment" and they just wanted them to go away. I talked with quite of few of these people, upwards of 50, and only ONE of these people saw their parents come out here to give them emotional support.

So your thinking that the parishners are ALWAYS just going to sit there and turn a blind eye is wrong from my perspective becasue I've seen otherwise. The "old school" catholics may fit into that mold, but I've seen too many from this generation start turning away from the flock. And not just here in AZ. either. I talk to many people online on religous and 12 step forums to know that the coming generation isn't buying into the BS that the older generation is trying to sell them.

Again, the tide is turning. It may take a couple of generations before the catholic church see's the full effect of the flood, but they will. As far as what I do to help people see what's going on, I do it online. That's where this generation and the coming generations are going to see this message, Not by way of flyers under windshield wipers.






posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 08:10 PM
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Originally posted by JohnySeagull

Pope accused of crimes against humanity by victims of sex abuse


www.guardian.co.uk

Victims of sexual abuse by Catholic priests have accused the pope, the Vatican secretary of state and two other high-ranking Holy See officials of crimes against humanity, in a formal complaint to the international criminal court (ICC).

The submission, lodged at The Hague on Tuesday, accuses the four men not only of failing to prevent or punish perpetrators of rape and sexual violence but also of engaging in the "systematic and widespread" practice of concealing sexual crimes around the world.
(visit the link for the full news article)



Yeah you see? This is what happens when the H.R.C.C denies them the ability to have wives. Instead of going home to wife to get some tang, they take some little boys anal virginity. I seem to remember somewhere in the bible about God destroying 2 whole cities for sodomy and other like sins.

The Roman Catholic Church needs to change its statue against marriage and let those poor priests have wives. God would prefer you to be celibate if possible but he does not require it, not to mention the whole human race would vanish if no one engaged in the Rut anymore.

So like Mr. Pope dude, let these poor souls have wives. Sex isn't a sin if youre married to the woman, and its better to get tang off your wife than to go and pervert and abuse little boys because your influences on them they will become sex offenders themselves and keep the cycle going.

Thank God for protestant churches
, its time for that whole medievel church to like get modernized, cuz those priests are going to have some kinda sex, wether it be with woman, man, little boy, or their hand. Let em get married so they don't gotta sin anymore. Its the logical choice.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by UniverSoul
reply to post by JohnySeagull
 

about time
anyone who sticks up for pedophiles, covers up their crimes or pays off their victims is
JUST AS BAD AS THE PEDOPHILE!
its time to end the ignorance of religion..for too long it has ruled over us for no other reason than they said so..
the fact that older generations were forced to believe and fear in it should tell us that these people are obviously sick power and money hungry freaks
deny ignorance people

edit on 13-9-2011 by UniverSoul because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-9-2011 by UniverSoul because: (no reason given)


I share your disgust in these crimes, but you are unfairly exploiting these people's crimes to also condemn a religion which never condoned any of these people's crimes..

These people have done this and hid behind their religion to shield and hide themselves from examination..the religion itself never commited these crimes or condoned them...



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 08:21 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


Man sinead o'connor looked pissed when she ripped up that pic of the Pope. Poor bastard, i'd hate to see what she'd do to him if she was standing in front of him. Might not be a pic she rips up then, might be his wrinkled old balls.

It has been said and i can attest to this simple truth. Hell hath no fury like to scorn of a woman. Lorena Bobbit is a prime example.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by alienreality

Originally posted by UniverSoul
reply to post by JohnySeagull
 

about time
anyone who sticks up for pedophiles, covers up their crimes or pays off their victims is
JUST AS BAD AS THE PEDOPHILE!
its time to end the ignorance of religion..for too long it has ruled over us for no other reason than they said so..
the fact that older generations were forced to believe and fear in it should tell us that these people are obviously sick power and money hungry freaks
deny ignorance people

edit on 13-9-2011 by UniverSoul because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-9-2011 by UniverSoul because: (no reason given)


I share your disgust in these crimes, but you are unfairly exploiting these people's crimes to also condemn a religion which never condoned any of these people's crimes..

These people have done this and hid behind their religion to shield and hide themselves from examination..the religion itself never commited these crimes or condoned them...



uh dude. If a religion covers up sex crimes its the exact same as condoning it, because it sends a clear message to these pedo priests, that they can engage in sex abuse and get away with it and face no jail time. if it was you or me doing that they'd lock our asses up and throw away the key and you know what happens to pedos in prison? They are killed because many prisoners were raped by pedo's when they were kids too.



posted on Sep, 13 2011 @ 08:29 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by alienreality

Originally posted by UniverSoul
reply to post by JohnySeagull
 

about time
anyone who sticks up for pedophiles, covers up their crimes or pays off their victims is
JUST AS BAD AS THE PEDOPHILE!
its time to end the ignorance of religion..for too long it has ruled over us for no other reason than they said so..
the fact that older generations were forced to believe and fear in it should tell us that these people are obviously sick power and money hungry freaks
deny ignorance people

edit on 13-9-2011 by UniverSoul because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-9-2011 by UniverSoul because: (no reason given)


I share your disgust in these crimes, but you are unfairly exploiting these people's crimes to also condemn a religion which never condoned any of these people's crimes..

These people have done this and hid behind their religion to shield and hide themselves from examination..the religion itself never commited these crimes or condoned them...



uh dude. If a religion covers up sex crimes its the exact same as condoning it, because it sends a clear message to these pedo priests, that they can engage in sex abuse and get away with it and face no jail time. if it was you or me doing that they'd lock our asses up and throw away the key and you know what happens to pedos in prison? They are killed because many prisoners were raped by pedo's when they were kids too.


Umm no, the religion didn't cover up anything, a person or persons did that... See what I mean?

A religion by itself is just a thing without a mind or a body and is incapable of doing anything at all.

People cover up things though, quite often...They even use religion like a blanket to hide all of their personal "sins"

It is really bad sometimes..




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