Is the United States Becoming Eighteenth Century Spain?

reply to post by alldaylong


The English existed after the Spanish Empire. They occupied, as I said in my OP, Jamaica. They also defeated the Spanish--again in my OP--in the battle of gravelines.

reply to post by isthisreallife


Yes, very good comparison. I've thought about this a lot and it interested me from the first time I learned about how the extension of their empire related to the harm it caused their nation internally.

Reconquista = Manifest Destiny

Let's not forget that there was no "Spain" prior to 1492. When the Moors invaded in 711, they came across Visigothic kingdoms who had taken over the failed State that was the Roman holdings in the Iberian peninsula. There was no Spanish language prior to 1492 (and that's only the officially sanctioned version - I think the first dictionary came shortly there after, but I can't remember off the top of my head. Lope de Vega sounds right, but I could be wrong...). Instead, the Visigoth Kingdoms spoke a series of semi-mutually intelligible dialects of Vulgar Latin with German words thrown in by their new rulers (the Visigoths were Germanic peoples).

The Muslim invaders set up shop and created a unified kingdom. As the Christians started to fight back from their Northern enclaves, they resettled their "continent" in the name of God. In reality, we can treat the Muslims as the Native Americans. For comparison, the Muslims held Granada from 711 to 1492 - that's three times as long as the Navajo lived in Arizona prior to colonization by the Spanish. So, I think I'm justified in saying it was as much their land by then as it was the pre-Spanish peoples of modern Spain to have lost in the first place.

I guess that's irrelevant - just a case of two groups doing the same thing to each other and the mightier one won in the end. But anyway, along with the Reconquista came the Inquisition - torture, racial purity, etc. I see this as very much similar to the rationale behind Manifest Destiny - a re-claiming of lands God intended for the Protestant Anglo-Saxon to hold, not the heathens or Catholics.

Manifest Destiny continues...

It didn't stop at the Gadsden Purchase, from there we took over Hawai'i, Pacific islands like Guam, the Philippines, Cuba, Puerto Rico, and mucked around quite a bit in Mexico and Central America. Now, as we clearly know, South Korea could clearly be seen as a Suzerain entity of our empire. Iraq and Afghanistan are moving into that position now. What changed from the time of Spain to the US was the vehicle of expansion. In the Catholic model, religion was seen as good enough of an impetus to secure riches. Nowadays, religion may still create a subtext, but invasion by proxy is now the norm, with corporations becoming the third party that normalizes the invasion - overt or covert - of these foreign lap-dog states.

The only thing that seemingly does not match up was the level of migration. Arguably, many of the American holdings that belonged to Spain were highly settled by their people. While naturally there are many people who are purely native in their genetic make-up (Quechua, Nahua, Maya, Yanomami, Yaqui, Mapuche, etc.), the vast majority of people are mixed, either Native and Spanish in Mexico and Central America and the Andes, African and Spanish (and Native) in the Caribbean Islands and coastal areas, and Spanish and other European or Native in Chile and Argentina.

This cannot be seen nowadays in places where the US invades and, whether we phrase it this way or not, colonizes. I think this has a lot to do with acculturation through the corporate proxy vehicles. The language, culture, mores and the concept of consumerism of America is exported, less so her people. How this will affect the eventual disintegration of the US is something I cannot know. But, unlike Spain, whose various colonies ended up becoming nationalistic and bringing about new nations, the places we've invaded already have their own nascent nationalism and original concepts of what their "nation" is. It's left to be seen in what way emancipation or independence will come about in this case.

**One small correction, if I could, Tenochtitlan was the capital of the Aztec Empire, not the Mayans.

EDIT: Not Lope de Vega, Antonio de Nebrija, sanctioned by Queen Isabel, wrote the first Spanish dictionary in 1492...should have remembered. By the way, they didn't call it Spanish, they called it Castellano (Castillian) which is of course in direct referencing to the Kingdom of Castilla (Castille) who was ruled by Isabel, who married Fernando of Aragon to form the first union that would later become what we call Spain. I think this is too unique a time in history to parallel with the US, as English was already a well documented and standardized language by the time the American colonies gained independence. Just thought I'd add it since we're on the subject.

reply to post by thoughtsfull


America wont hand anything over they will just start a new...if every empire falls...then the entire world is in trouble

If I may recommend a book on this subject, it'd be Amy Chua's "Day of Empire." You may not all agree with her main thesis that it's multiculturalism that at first empowers an empire, then weakens it, but the amount of history is stunning.

The Achaemenid Empire? Overextended its borders to places where people didn't feel loyalty to them.
Alexander the Great's? Ditto.
Rome? The Tang Dynasty, the Mongol, Spanish, Dutch, Ottoman, Ming, Mughal, and British Empires? Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan? Again, overextension into territories hostile are talked about in her book in all these cases.

According to her, America is the first Global Empire that monopolizes on a scale that it needs not invade other countries; and this all-pervasive global Americanization attempt has meant that America's cultural empire is in territories that are hostile to being "invaded" as such.

Amazing thread! Did not take ages to read and was fun to read it!

I always think of how the USA will fall. If my information [ youtube video :p ] is right, Isreal is the next super power that will show up in 2022 after the USA is becoming a dying empire.

S & F!

Perhaps they have the imperialism and genocide in common,

but USA is Spain on steroids in terms of damage and destruction it will wreak upon other nations' peoples until it goes belly up.

bigger they are harder they fall and this one wants to bring everyone down with it, maximum impact.

reply to post by goh13


Well thank you. I attempt to make threads that are educational and simple to understand to the common man, as I am by no means an expert.

As for Israel, I do not believe they can be a superpower in the traditional sense. They are too vulnerable and the region to inflammatory for them to ever be able to grow. It's possible that they could expand in other regions, but i don't see them ever reach empire status.

reply to post by Sphota


Very, very enlightening and educated response. Thank you for that. I'm not even sure how respond because it was so complete haha not that I'm sucking up. It was just almost as much information in your post as in my OP.

Fantastic thread. I've learned at least a dozen things in a relatively short read.

I had no idea that Spain reached such heights.

I wonder if their economic decline due to inflation was by design, not by themselves but by a more centralized and international cabal.

This was a good read, funny thing is Last night I was reading up on this myself.

Originally posted by rexusdiablos
Fantastic thread. I've learned at least a dozen things in a relatively short read.

I had no idea that Spain reached such heights.

I wonder if their economic decline due to inflation was by design, not by themselves but by a more centralized and international cabal.

Couldn't have put it better myself! I have for years been very curious/uncomfortable about Spain. They still seem to be 'behind' things. For example when Blair and Bush had their meeting and came out announcing Saddam had 48 hours to 'get out' otherwise it would be 'shock and awe', that meeting was held in the Cannaries (Spanish) and was attended by at least the Spanish PM.....did we hear much about Spain's part in the Iraqi war? Why were they in on the meeting? As a small aside the announcement or the actual 'shock and awe' happened on the Ides of March.
I really believe (without any evidence) that even though the Spanish Empire 'fell', they have still got a lot to say and imput with things that go on globally. I can totally 'feel' your comment about a "more centralized and international cabal".
Follow the money.....back to Rome perchance?
S&F OP....you got me thinking even more about my own 'gut' feelings and the added information from other posters are all helping, thank you all.
Will be subscribing to this thread!
Rainbows
Jane

Originally posted by buster2010
No America is nothing like Spain. Spain became wealthy and America has gone broke. If anything America is becoming like 1930's Germany.

I see this as more of a parallel Germany and The US. The freedoms stripped away and Nazi-like political tactics and Stormtrooper type law enforcement or more rightly gestapo-like powers.

reply to post by Plotus


Well sure, there are many similarities between Germany (of the 1930's) and America today. That is a possible thread for another time.

Then again, you could compare America to almost any Empire. The British perhaps? Or the Romans? Even the Chinese would work relatively well.

reply to post by rexusdiablos


It is possible, although I seem to think it was just mismanagement. I know someone said I used the word 'greed' too much, but I find that word perfect for the Spanish.

They just bit off too much than they could chew, and then were victims to debt and hyper-inflation on a scale never before seen, except maybe in Zimbabwe.

reply to post by isthisreallife


Wasn't trying to steal the show and I know some of info was not necessarily on the exact subject - more background info when it came to language, I suppose. I'm glad you put the research together. I wanted to add what I knew from years of Mexican and Caribbean Spanish literature classes and time living in Spain - by association, I ended up learning about the rise and fall of the Spanish Empire.

I was helping a friend of mine analyze an original text from the early 1600s put together by an anonymous Spanish author about the exploits of a young man as he traveled from Spain to Peru and back to the Caribbean with Spanish gold. In the manuscript, which I had the task of transcribing (because Spanish back then is not today's Spanish - like Shakespear English, so to speak - and because the handwriting was that old calligraphy style). I started to learn about the Spanish Armada and the English Armada and John Hawkins, etc, and the storm that thwarted them.

reply to post by isthisreallife


Lmao, America an Empire? You people have no concept of History. History won't record America as an Empire, but as a sad state that fell under the control of euro-trash Criminal's. This Empire hurts the average American far more then helps. Heck it even hurts the American "aristocracy"(wealthy) that aren't beholden to the British crown.

And the actions of this so called Empire only hurt's America while aiding Europe's long term political/economic agenda.

The destabilization of Africa and Asia only helps Europe. Because it reduces the locals ability harness their own resources thus freeing up plenty of resources for resource poor Europe. The tale of America will be a bitter and sad one, a tale of betrayal and of the stupidity in trusting the wrong people.

We have to remember the real reason why the USA is the "policeman of the world". To keep the nations of Europe from raping and pillaging around the world. American militarism put an end to European imperialism.

reply to post by isthisreallife


The economy of Spain became largely one of finance (moving money around) and lost "industrial" capacity. The situation also mirrors closely early 20th century England as she moved away from her status as the first and largest industrialized nation (most especially textiles, but also ship building, mining and steel), towards relying on the manufacturing of America and the raw materials of the commonwealth, in exchange for jobs in the service industry and financiers.
We see this now in the US as we move away from manufacturing and follow those same trends. All previous modern world powers on this path have seen their power wane: 17th century Spain, 18th century Holland, 20th century England.
Our situation closely mirrors this. Our GDP is now roughly 20% finance and 10% manufacturing. In 1950 the numbers were 10% and 30% respectively. Instead of the commonwealth, we use asian labour markets.

Originally posted by korathin
reply to post by isthisreallife

 

Lmao, America an Empire? You people have no concept of History. History won't record America as an Empire, but as a sad state that fell under the control of euro-trash Criminal's. This Empire hurts the average American far more then helps. Heck it even hurts the American "aristocracy"(wealthy) that aren't beholden to the British crown.

And the actions of this so called Empire only hurt's America while aiding Europe's long term political/economic agenda.

The destabilization of Africa and Asia only helps Europe. Because it reduces the locals ability harness their own resources thus freeing up plenty of resources for resource poor Europe. The tale of America will be a bitter and sad one, a tale of betrayal and of the stupidity in trusting the wrong people.

We have to remember the real reason why the USA is the "policeman of the world". To keep the nations of Europe from raping and pillaging around the world. American militarism put an end to European imperialism.

The United States is the definition of the 21st century Empire. You can't have empires in the same way you could prior to the technological (and green) revolution. Its impossible. Before America even rose militarily, the European nations had already begun to lose their empires.
Spain lost their empire mainly due to their inability to control the natives. The French lost their empire due to internal conflict, external conflict and the inability to control the natives. The Portuguese became indebted and could no longer afford an empire. The Germans never really had an empire, except Africa, and they could have continued their empire had it not been for the British (and internal distress). The English...well the English just had poor management.

The United States is the epitome of an effective military, economic and political hegemony on the world. Who controls the world's airspaces and oceans? America. Who controls the economic reserves (and the official currency) of almost every nation on Earth? America. Who controls the United Nations, NATO, and the IMF? America.

Saying that the United States is not an empire is like saying that Andrew Jackson treated Native Americans well.