Could Immortals be living among us?, page 4

Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by ldyserenity
Statistically speaking anybody living for a very long time makes the odds for accidental death increase. Even thirty year olds are twice as likely to be killed in vehicular accidents than the 20 something year olds.

I'm not seeing where you are getting that kind of statistic. Here's a table that lists causes of accidental death. It depends on the question you are asking and how you ask it, but the statistics seems to support the opposite conclusion. 30 year olds are half as likely to die in an auto accident than 20 year olds. Also drivers under the age of 24 are responsible for 30% of the damage caused by accidents, hence higher insurance for teenagers; higher insurance for males.

But this really doesn't answer the question: What are the chances in a certain period of time that a given individual will die an accidental death--not death by disease, but by more or less being in the wrong place at the wrong time? That's a much harder questuon to answer. Even if you can show that for 2009 there were 1.13 deaths per 100 million miles traveled, that does not translate to if you drive 100 million miles, you'd certainly die in an accident. I might drive a million miles in my lifetime, so sometimes these kinds of statistics wind up meaningless. And behavior has a lot to do with survival. If you were immortal, would you go skydiving?

I found this place which suggests your lifetime odds of accidental death are one in 24 to 37, yet several of these "accidents" are self-caused and they change every year. In 10 AD your chances of dying in an airplane crash were few. Now it's lifetime odds of one in 4,608. All these things involve behavior, and if you were intentionally changing your behavior expressly to increase your chances of living, you could alter those statistics significantly. Simply saying, "I don't think living within striking distance of this volcano is a very good idea." is potentially a life-saving event.

edit on 9/10/2011 by schuyler because: (no reason given)

Very good insight schuyler. Immortals wouldn't be idiots, they would know that skydiving would be potentially dangerous, they would no to avoid Volcano areas. But even in the movie they were saying how lucky he was to have survived all this time.

reply to post by schuyler

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Hmm maybe they have changed? My sister was in insurance when I was 16 so maybe the statistics have changed? IDK... but I would asume the longer you live the higher the probability for things to go wrong. Just more of a theory more or less. My reasoning with this is that with increased years somoeone would become more complacent and not as observant as someone else who has and knows they have a limit to their lifespan, if you can understand what I am saying. How far back do those statistics go because I recall my sister saying this what I stated in the other reply. Eh maybe it was an alternate timeline (HEHE just kidding!).

Oh I see no, what I was saying is that of the accidents that happen amongst the age groups. Ok how do I put this if there are say 400,000 teenagers in accidents a larger percentage of them will get injured as opposed to dying, but in the 30 somethings even if they have less accidents they possess a larger percentage of deaths instead of injuries of their accidents. Do you understand what I mean now?

Originally posted by ldyserenity
reply to post by schuyler

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Oh I see no, what I was saying is that of the accidents that happen amongst the age groups. Ok how do I put this if there are say 400,000 teenagers in accidents a larger percentage of them will get injured as opposed to dying, but in the 30 somethings even if they have less accidents they possess a larger percentage of deaths instead of injuries of their accidents. Do you understand what I mean now?

I do understand what you are saying, and I understood the first time. I am saying the statistics available do not prove your case; they prove the opposite and I cited the evidence that this is so in my links. If you think 30 year olds die twice as often in accidents compared to 20 year olds, you need to cite some convincing evidence. So far, you have not. I won't turn this into a bigger argument because it is kind of beside the point anyway. I'm really more interested in answering this question:

"If you were immune to disease, including aging, and essentially were theoretically capable of living forever, how long would you live on average before you were killed by accident?"

Because we have no proof this has ever happened, this absolutely must be a hypothetical question, but I don't accept the idea that people just assume someone would die of an accident. To put it another way, you now have a 2% chance to live to be 100. One in 50 people do, in fact, live to be 100, hence a 2% chance. OK. What are the chances for our otherwise ageless healthy person living to be 15,000?

I don't know the answer, but if we are just going to assume he will die in an accident, we may as well end our little game here.

Originally posted by ldyserenity
reply to post by BlackSatinDancer

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Going further with the Biblical recounts also in Gen. I think that God's punishment was not just banishment from the Garden, but isn't there some reference to them (Adam & Eve) having to experience Death? Didn't it infer that they were granted everlasting life until they bit from the fruit? No I think it was referenced that "what if they eat from the tree of life and be like gods immortal"? okay never mind I got it backwards lol. Well still I remember something about eternal life, maybe it was that the soul/spirit was granted life eternal up to the point where they bit the apple and then seperation from God happened and there would be only eternal life for those that found their way back to God? Maybe that is what is screwing me up idk?
However I beleive that if they did live so long in the days of Genesis, wouldn't it go without saying that maybe during evolution a mutation evolved in at least one person that granted them eternal physical life? Also other biblical stories elude to this, can't remember exactly which ones but oen metioned that one dude would walk the earth until judgement day he would not die, etc. Can't remember who the story is about. Maybe that story evolved from someone who had part in the construction of the bible who actually met a person of immortality? See every writer knows the main law of writing fiction, it is to write what you know, so if you're even writing what is supposed to be non-fiction, you still want tos tick with what you know.And if you were immortal would you not think it a curse? Or if you met an immortal, would you not think it to have been a curse hearing how the person described losing everyone they love and having to continue, not being able to die, no rest for the wicked, right?

the story you are referring to is the wandering jew. it's actually from a dual interpretation in the bible because christ was always saying stuff that could be interpreted numerous ways. at some point during the crucifixion when christ was being hassled and all, he supposedly said something to someone that some took as a curse... along the lines that this guy would witness his return.

so some take it that it was supposed to be literal... that this guy is going be to walking the earth til judgment day.

reply to post by jjf3rd77

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flawed concept! we are the immortals in our true nature, ie) the soul. mite make a funny movie though.

I finally found the web site I had been searching for. It is Secrets of an Immortal - An Eyewitness Account of 2,800 Years of History by Ben Abba. The site has been up awhile and apparently Abba is having some difficulty getting his project finished. In any case, it is an interesting approach and may be of interest to some of you here.

Yes, it may be true that we have 'immortal souls' as our true nature, but I think it is fair to say that approach has been thoroughly covered by various religions and is not the question on the table here. If you quibble with the word "immortality" try substituting "people who live a really long time" into the equation. In any case the idea of having an "immortal soul" and "people who live a really long time:" are not incompatible. Both could be logically true. I suppose if both are true then the latter could be considered a curse rather than a blessing, but also, if both are true, it doesn't really matter, does it?

The Wandering Jew was mentioned above. A novelization of this is My first two thousand years; the autobiography of a wandering Jew by George Viereck which was originally published in 1928 and is still available. I read it years ago.

en.wikipedia.org...

I found this, as well. Interesting stuff.

Here's an interesting site. This group is apparently "hunting" immortals. They relate their experiences via blog posts. It's quite lengthy. I just used up some hours on this. It's hard to tell how serious they are, or whetehr it's someone's idea of art.

reply to post by jjf3rd77

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Mind-blowing it was (Man from Earth). I have probably seen it at least 10 times. The dialogues are so engrossing that I still watch it line to line. The topic discussed was also wonderful. If it could be real, not sure...

Originally posted by himalayanhermit
reply to post by jjf3rd77

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Mind-blowing it was (Man from Earth). I have probably seen it at least 10 times. The dialogues are so engrossing that I still watch it line to line. The topic discussed was also wonderful. If it could be real, not sure...

I too have seen it probably about 20 times at least. It's such a great movie none other compares. I always find new things to either think about or catch in the plot!

One word for the film is, EPIC!

Originally posted by BadNinja68
interesting topic.
A few years ago I came across this story on the web.

www.agelessgene.com...

It's chatlogs from a guy who talks to a chatbot program.

Gene's whole conversation is one of the most fascinating things I've read & I cannot shake the feeling that it's all completely genuine. However in the interests of playing devil's advocate I have spent a few days contemplating reasons, which are completely hypothetical, for it to be a little more dubious in its origin:

1. Deliberate hoax
This is the least likely reason, fooling a chat bot is as easy as breathing and it's certainly not much of an achievement. As for the creator of the site itself (s)he answers the accusation in the FAQ so I don't need to add anything here.

2. Gene has a mental problem of some kind
Given the complexity of the human mind this could be a possibility but the coherence and consistency of Gene's conversation strongly suggests otherwise. I know being delusional doesn't mean having the conversational skills of a dead slug yet it just doesn't feel right.

3. Gene was in the process of writing something/playing a role which involved an immortal character and used the bot as a means of evaluating everything that entailed
This is the only other explanation I could think of and it does seem the most viable of the three but I can think of a couple of things which count against it. Firstly if it was just a form of research then Gene wouldn't have been at all concerned about any log files which were created. Secondly his desperate need to talk to someone, ideally a virtual person, was blatantly obvious from the start. Of course that could just mean he's a very good actor...

I'll admit that it's been some time since I attempted something like this so I may not have done a great job. Any suggestions, corrections or constructive criticism would be much appreciated

reply to post by Microwaved

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You've got some very good points there. I have a couple of comments on this particular site, and a couple on the idea as a whole, with this site being one example:

1. The possibility that this site, The Ageless Gene, is a hoax has to be taken seriously. Whoever put this site up has gone to a lot of effort not only on the site itself, which is well done, but in taking steps to make sure he remains anonymous. In his FAQ, to which you alluded, I don't think his answers to, "Is this fake?" are very good. He goes on at great length about how Gene's language structure is stilted and reflects age and that he must learn a new language every ten years or so.

Both these assertions are unlikely. Gene's language would have changed with the times, just as ours does. I wouldn't have said, "Google this!" ten years ago; I do now with some frequency. You can't tell an accent via typing. so that whole strain makes no sense. Gene would NOT have been forced to learn a new language every ten years. It would put him at a distinct disadvantage to do so. Not that he NEVER would have, but there is no good reason why he would have to do it every decade. He has more than a continent to move around in for English.

This is a fault I see on "Man from Earth" as well. All John Oldman would have had to do is dye his temples a bit grey and he'd have had another ten years and been able to "retire" normally from his position. His sudden resignation mid-year rings a lot more alarm bells than if he had quietly waited to the end of the school year. Plot devices sometimes require this and I'm cool with it, but this does not reflect logical thinking.

So the FAQ does not sit well with me. It's as if the author anticipated the objections and simply worked around them, then pointed out how clever he was in his FAQ. I also question why the author put up the site in the first place. It costs money to maintain. What's the motivation here? I do not understand that.

2. I also think we have to put this site, The Ageless Gene (Just too cute of a title, isn't it?), into context with the other sites that are similar (in some respects). We have Ben Abba, another anonymous character. who says his superior research skills and Remote Viewing have led him to about 25 long-lived individuals, among them a 2800 year old man with black teeth who spoke personally with the likes of Jesus and Julius Caesar, among many other luminaries from the past. Mr. Abba's problem is that he just can't seem to get his book done.

Then we have the True Immortals involved with the Immortality Plague. This story is told "via blog" by many individuals who themlselves are "hunting" immoortals. The quest is lengthy, complex (in terms of links) and ultimately sounds like a literary project of some kind. Maybe it is real, or maybe they are living a fantasy; it's hard to tell intent here.

Then we have methuselah1937, a character on ATS, who obviously WANTS us to believe there are immortals in the world. His modus operandi is to post a few tidbits once in awhile, then proclaim he has "said too much" before fading back into the aether. This is an interesting case in its details all by itself.

The Ben Abba story is here and also here.
The True Immortals story is here with lots of links.
Ageless Gene is here for completeness sake.
And methiselah1937 is an ATS thread here with its own links.

Both Ben Abba and methuselah1937 have accounts on ATS where you can see what they have posted. "methuselah," now that's subtle, isn't it?

So the possibilities are one or more here:

1. These people are living a complete fantasy for their own internal reasons; it feels good. They are proclaiming their own immortality. You see this sometimes on forums where someone will say, "Hi, I'm Suzie, and I'm an immortal." Reminds me of AA.

2. These people are living a complete fantasy in an attempt to dupe others such as ourselves. This could be for their own self-gratification or perhaps rationalized as an experiment in psychology. The story might wind up in a thesis some day. I'm suspecting True Immortals falls into this category. It's either that or "literature."

3. These people have been duped by others themselves and believe the fantasy they are promoting. They went looking, found what they are looking for, and believe it unconditionally. I'm guessing Ben Abba falls into this category.

I've run out of space...continued.

Originally posted by schuyler
1. The possibility that this site, The Ageless Gene, is a hoax has to be taken seriously. Whoever put this site up has gone to a lot of effort not only on the site itself, which is well done, but in taking steps to make sure he remains anonymous. In his FAQ, to which you alluded, I don't think his answers to, "Is this fake?" are very good. He goes on at great length about how Gene's language structure is stilted and reflects age and that he must learn a new language every ten years or so.

Both these assertions are unlikely. Gene's language would have changed with the times, just as ours does. I wouldn't have said, "Google this!" ten years ago; I do now with some frequency. You can't tell an accent via typing. so that whole strain makes no sense. Gene would NOT have been forced to learn a new language every ten years. It would put him at a distinct disadvantage to do so. Not that he NEVER would have, but there is no good reason why he would have to do it every decade. He has more than a continent to move around in for English.

This is a fault I see on "Man from Earth" as well. All John Oldman would have had to do is dye his temples a bit grey and he'd have had another ten years and been able to "retire" normally from his position. His sudden resignation mid-year rings a lot more alarm bells than if he had quietly waited to the end of the school year. Plot devices sometimes require this and I'm cool with it, but this does not reflect logical thinking.

So the FAQ does not sit well with me. It's as if the author anticipated the objections and simply worked around them, then pointed out how clever he was in his FAQ. I also question why the author put up the site in the first place. It costs money to maintain. What's the motivation here? I do not understand that.

That's all worth serious consideration & also shows I was a tad too quick to dismiss the possibility of it being a hoax so I was at something of a crossroads after reading it. You raising so many good questions lead me to consider one neither of us initially picked up on. The site's creator claims they wish to remain anonymous in another attempt to show it's not a hoax, something that struck me as odd given the nature of the information as personal security would be my biggest concern if I'd stumbled across something of such a potentially world changing nature. So the question becomes 'just how anonymous are they?'

Address lookup
canonical name agelessgene.com.
aliases
addresses 208.109.138.206
Domain Whois record

Queried whois.internic.net with "dom agelessgene.com"...

Domain Name: AGELESSGENE.COM
Registrar: GODADDY.COM, INC.
Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
Referral URL: registrar.godaddy.com...
Name Server: NS19.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
Name Server: NS20.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
Status: clientDeleteProhibited
Status: clientRenewProhibited
Status: clientTransferProhibited
Status: clientUpdateProhibited
Updated Date: 13-oct-2010
Creation Date: 12-oct-2005
Expiration Date: 12-oct-2011

>>> Last update of whois database: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 18:54:13 UTC <<<

Queried whois.godaddy.com with "agelessgene.com"...

Registrant:
Bryant Oden
1845 Bluebell Ave
Boulder, Colorado 80302
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (www.godaddy.com...)
Domain Name: AGELESSGENE.COM
Created on: 12-Oct-05
Expires on: 12-Oct-11
Last Updated on: 13-Oct-10

Administrative Contact:
Oden, Bryant mailbryant@gmail.com
1845 Bluebell Ave
Boulder, Colorado 80302
United States
303522**** Fax --

Technical Contact:
Oden, Bryant mailbryant@gmail.com
1845 Bluebell Ave
Boulder, Colorado 80302
United States
303522**** Fax --

Domain servers in listed order:
NS19.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
NS20.DOMAINCONTROL.COM

(I'm not sure if positing the phone number, even if it is publicly available, is against the site's T&Cs so I removed the last four digits just in case.)

A whois lookup which takes all of 30 seconds provides the answer & it speaks for itself. If the claim of anonymity can be so thoroughly disproved with almost no effort then the rest of the site gets filed under 'extremely questionable/possibly debunked' as far as I'm concerned.
Just in case anyone's wondering if the name & address are falsified the address can be verified via Google Maps and I found two other sites registered with the exact same information: www.songdrops.com... & www.innocentenglish.com...
The first site has his name included in its title so there's no doubt that it's all accurate.

Another day, another illusion shattered

reply to post by BadNinja68

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some marine creatures do have that trait. it's called negligible senescence. i've been interested in it for forever. i wonder if there is some way in which we could isolate the hormones that control that and transfer it to human beings.

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