Dole says Kerry Should Apoligize To Vets

Dole-"One day he's saying that we were shooting civilians, cutting off their ears, cutting off their heads, throwing away his medals or his ribbons," Dole said. "The next day he's standing there, 'I want to be president because I'm a Vietnam veteran.'

www.cnn.com...

I think it is about time someone stands on the Republican side but then again, it is Dole.

www.realchange.org...

Why would I listen to Bob?

Dole is the one who should apologize. I used to respect people like John McCain and Bob Dole, until they became Bush sellouts. These are people who said George Bush would make a bad president, and they were right! These people said they were running for the people, unlike Bush who was running for the corporations! But where are they now? Defending American liberties? Helping the people make sure we have good choices for the election? Making sure the right person gets into office?

No. They are George W. Bush puppets. I don't blame them completely. I'm sure he put major political pressure on them, or worse, offered them some major political points. However you play it, Bob Dole is the one who should be ashamed of himself. Not John Kerry.

let me understand this jabba, you think it's wrong that McCain and others like him are now supporting bush when they were once saying he would make a bad president. is that not what every member of the democratic primaries is doing now by vehemently supporting kerry? face it, that's common politics among both parties.

Kerry owes Vietnam vets an apology. I for one wouldn't accept it. He's a traitor and a scoudrel. I can't think of a worse fate for America than to have a communist fellow-traveller elected president. It wouldn't be good for anyone.

Dole doesn't need to apologize to anyone. John Kerry has plenty to be ashamed of, but of course, when you have no conscience, a sense of shame is not your strong suit

Originally posted by AntiPolitrix
Dole-"One day he's saying that we were shooting civilians, cutting off their ears, cutting off their heads, throwing away his medals or his ribbons," Dole said. "The next day he's standing there, 'I want to be president because I'm a Vietnam veteran.'

This is the point that alot of Dems seem to want to leave in the closet about the Kerry war record. His point about 3 purple hearts in 4 months also is another question. How bad were those wounds?

Originally posted by astroblade
let me understand this jabba, you think it's wrong that McCain and others like him are now supporting bush when they were once saying he would make a bad president. is that not what every member of the democratic primaries is doing now by vehemently supporting kerry? face it, that's common politics among both parties.

I don't have a problem with politicians changing their minds (even though if John Kerry does it he's called a flip-flopper). I even don't have a problem with them supporting such a poor president as George W. Bush. What I do have a problem with is when they do this, AND spread propoganda for the president, when I seriously doubt they are distorted enough to believe it.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Kerry owes Vietnam vets an apology. I for one wouldn't accept it. He's a traitor and a scoudrel. I can't think of a worse fate for America than to have a communist fellow-traveller elected president. It wouldn't be good for anyone.

Dole doesn't need to apologize to anyone. John Kerry has plenty to be ashamed of, but of course, when you have no conscience, a sense of shame is not your strong suit

Traitor and a scoudrel? Communist? No conscience? Are you a George Bush worshipper? You know non of that is factual right? I don't mean to criticize anyone, but this is exactly what was meant by true traitors like John McCain and Bob Dole who spread false propoganda. They want you to believe lies about their opposition. They know that free-thinking Americans see that George Bush is the worst president ever, and that even a monkey would do a better job as president, and the politicians are terrified.

Don't believe the lies. Look for the truth. John Kerry is not a traitor. He fought bravely for this country, even when he doubted the reasons for that horrible war. Many people did far worse things in the same position.

Originally posted by JabbaOnTheDais
I don't have a problem with politicians changing their minds (even though if John Kerry does it he's called a flip-flopper). I even don't have a problem with them supporting such a poor president as George W. Bush. What I do have a problem with is when they do this, AND spread propoganda for the president, when I seriously doubt they are distorted enough to believe it.

The problem with Kerry and the flip flops beyond the fact there are so many is this: He does not change his mind because of a moral or ethical reason, or because he has ealized his part stance is wrong. He flip flops with the voting wind when he feels its poitically expedient. Which John Kerry will we elect? The one who is supportive and tough on defence, or the one who has never met a pentagon prgram he liked? Is this a man that will stand by his convictions or not?

Originally posted by FredT
Which John Kerry will we elect?

I'm going to vote for the John Kerry that is not George Bush. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't want 4 more years of a Bush America. I frankly don't care what Kerry's positions are. I want to see John Ashcraft out of office, and George Bush back at his ranch in Texas. That is all.

George W. Bush may not have been the worst thing to happen to this country, but he's certainly the worst thing to happen to veterans. I'm surprised Bush has finally condemned the Swift Boat Veterans for �Truth� group (granted it was far too late for him to save any grace from it. He only condemned them AFTER it was found out that they were a sham, AFTER they were proven to be liars). John Kerry scolded those ads that mock George W. Bush's records even though it has been PROVEN that Mr. Bush was missing for those months, that he didn't go for the physical, etc. Kerry still denounced those negative ads against Bush though. Bush only did AFTER the Swift Boat Veterans for 'Bush' were proven to be liars. I think that shows Mr. Bush's character quite in detail. Does nobody remember back in 2000 how Bush wouldn't apologize for that veterans group that said McCain abandoned the veterans?

Bob Dole... sigh. What happened to the Bob dole I used to know? The Bob Dole who did Viagra commercials, who did Pepsi commercials, who was the daily show correspondent... I miss that Bob Dole. I used to have all my e-mail address Bob Dole orientated (such as [email protected]) and I still firmly believe that if he would have been elected things would be different today (not much, but still different). The Bob Dole of today though is nothing like he was just those few short years ago (ok 8 years isn't that short!). I'm not sure how exactly he allowed himself to become a marionette, but that's all he is now. It's like watching a bad Simpson�s episode where Bob Dole has been replaced by an alien bob dole... the real Bob Dole wouldn't taken all of his beliefs and shoved them aside to help a war mongering George W. Bush. Please cut the strings Bob Dole, for the sake of your country, for the sake of humanity. PLEASE cut those strings.

Originally posted by JabbaOnTheDais
I don't mean to criticize anyone, but this is exactly what was meant by true traitors like John McCain and Bob Dole who spread false propoganda.

John Kerry is not a traitor. He fought bravely for this country, even when he doubted the reasons for that horrible war. Many people did far worse things in the same position.

You see, you lose all credibiity with statements like that. You have no objectivity. Kerry by all accounts served honorably in Vietnam, except that he used his rank and position to chalk up every scratch recieved as a "wound," so he could get out of country ASAP and come back and slander everyone who fought the war.

Except for the fact that all war is horrible, why do you characterize Vietnam as horribe? Were you there? Were you alive during the war?

Whom can you name who did worse than Kerry in the same position? While your at it can you tell us what position you're speaking of?

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
You see, you lose all credibiity with statements like that. You have no objectivity.

I am simply responding in kind:

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Kerry owes Vietnam vets an apology. ... He's a traitor and a scoudrel. I can't think of a worse fate for America than to have a communist fellow-traveller elected president. ... John Kerry has plenty to be ashamed of, but of course, when you have no conscience, a sense of shame is not your strong suit

Kerry by all accounts served honorably in Vietnam, except that he used his rank and position to chalk up every scratch recieved as a "wound," so he could get out of country ASAP and come back and slander everyone who fought the war.

Get your facts straight.

Except for the fact that all war is horrible, why do you characterize Vietnam as horribe? Were you there? Were you alive during the war?

Were you there when the Nazis masacared the Jews? Where you there when the US nuked two Japanese cities? Were you alive then? I characterize the Vietnam war as horrible because it was. Thousands of North and South Vietnamese women were raped, and even more innocent civilians killed. The president and the military lied to the American people about the results of the war (which was only discovered after a top-level informant contacted the media).

Whom can you name who did worse than Kerry in the same position? While your at it can you tell us what position you're speaking of?

The position I am speaking of is the Vietnam War. You know, it was the one over in Vietnam. If you were in fact alive at the time, then you remember quite well the protests in the streets. The bombing in America by protestors with strong convictions about the war. The burning of draft cards. The troops called out to protect the nations landmarks from those "violent" protestors. When people feel strongly that their government is commiting horrible acts, they lash out. John Kerry gave testimony of his personal beliefs which I full respect and admire. John Kerry is a true hero, for his bravery on the battlefield, and his courageousness at home.

[edit on 23-8-2004 by JabbaOnTheDais]

[edit on 23-8-2004 by JabbaOnTheDais]

Originally posted by JabbaOnTheDais
Thousands of North and South Vietnamese women were raped, and even more innocent civilians killed. .

This is so stupid it hardly deserves a response. The communists raped and terrorised the South Vietnamese. They killed something on the order of 10,000 civilians during Tet '68. I would like you to find one North Vietnamese woman raped by an American. I can't say no S. Vietnamese woman was ever raped by an American, but your figures are ludicrous.

The position I am speaking of is the Vietnam War. You know, it was the one over in Vietnam. If you were in fact alive at the time...]

I served in Vietnam from August 1968 to February 1969. I served in the US Marine Corps as a Field Artillery Batteryman on 155mm howitzers (M109SP) and 4.2 in. mortars (107mm, Baseplate). I was wounded in action on 23 February 1969 and was subsequently medivaced to Japan and the US to undergo intensive burn treatment. I was awarded the Purple Heart for my wounds. You might note that I served in-country during the same time as John Kerry.

...then you remember quite well the protests in the streets. The bombing in America by protestors with strong convictions about the war. The burning of draft cards. The troops called out to protect the nations landmarks from those "violent" protestors. When people feel strongly that their government is commiting horrible acts, they lash out. John Kerry gave testimony of his personal beliefs which I full respect and admire. John Kerry is a true hero, for his bravery on the battlefield, and his courageousness at home.

Actually, I was too busy serving my country to be too aware of all the traitorous acts commited by Americans in support of the communists. I was in the Caribbean when four American traitors died for their cause at Kent State. I was sad to hear of these events, but when you play with fire, sometimes you get burned.

Kerry evidently acted with courage and valor on the "battlefield," even though he admitted to committing war crimes (although he was careful to list actions that were in no way criminal as proof of his crimes--smart, huh). He came home to give aid and comfort to the enemy, by lying before congress and leading demonstrations in support of the communists.

Kerry should be your hero. You're cut from the same cloth.


[edit on 04/8/23 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
This is so stupid it hardly deserves a response. The communists raped and terrorised the South Vietnamese. They killed something on the order of 10,000 civilians during Tet '68. I would like you to find one North Vietnamese woman raped by an American. I can't say no S. Vietnamese woman was ever raped by an American, but your figures are ludicrous.

Let's try facts shall we? The sheer number of women and children that were raped in Vietnam is an ungodly number. Using simple math, it would appear that Americans undoubtedly did their share in the raping of these women and children. To say that it was just the evil, bad, and oh-so-scary Communists doing the rapes and other wrong doings is just plain stupid. It looks like you nearly admit that South Vietnamese were raped by Americans (which is obviously true). Using simple math again, it is almost guaranteed that a North Vietnamese citizen was raped by an American. I suggest reading free.freespeech.org... before trying to cover up your guilty conscience. Hundreds of thousands of atrocities occurred to those poor Vietnamese, many of which occurred by Americans.

I served in Vietnam from August 1968 to February 1969. I served in the US Marine Corps as a Field Artillery Batteryman on 155mm howitzers (M109SP) and 4.2 in. mortars (107mm, Baseplate). I was wounded in action on 23 February 1969 and was subsequently medivaced to Japan and the US to undergo intensive burn treatment. I was awarded the Purple Heart for my wounds. You might note that I served in-country during the same time as John Kerry.

That's great that you chose to do your duty as a soldier -- you have a great insight into the war. Like John Kerry, you received a Purple Heart medal, and put your life on the line everyday you were there. Because of that, like John Kerry, you saw hundreds of autocracies being done, by the Northern Vietnamese as well as your own American comrades. The only difference though is John Kerry was brave enough to speak out against the Vietnam War, go against those autocracies he saw being done -- maybe you regret not speaking about the war, and this is why you have a guilty conscience? My father is a Vietnam vet and it changed him in many ways. Not only was he injected with hundreds of experimental drugs (which he was never told what was, only that they were for 'his benefit') but also had to do some horrendous things to survive. Needless to say, these things greatly influenced me as a person and made me understand just how horrible war is.

Actually, I was too busy serving my country to be too aware of all the traitorous acts commited by Americans in support of the communists. I was in the Caribbean when four American traitors died for their cause at Kent State. I was sad to hear of these events, but when you play with fire, sometimes you get burned.

In the above paragraph you say that you were SERVING your country, doing your duty. Yet in other paragraphs you call those who opposed the Vietnam War �supporters of communism, un-patriotic, un-american�, and those who support Kerry �un-american� because he is �un-american�. But what are Americans doing when they chose to oppose the Vietnam War? They were doing their DUTY, they were SERVING THEIR country. Why? Because it is the right of EVERY AMERICAN to dissent. They did their duty as PATRIOTIC AMERICANS to protest against a war that started out just, but quickly became a fiasco in which MILLIONS were murdered. You think it's traitorous to dissent, that it's not doing one's duty? That's good to know, with that attitude we would be still a colony of Great Britain. Those who died at Kent State died for their patriotism, and I am so proud of them having the courage to die for what they believed in. I'm not certain I could die for my beliefs; I only hope I could if it came to that.

Originally posted by Final_Wave
Using simple math again, it is almost guaranteed that a North Vietnamese citizen was raped by an American.

First of all, your deconstructing a post I made to someone else and as such I really don't feel obligated to respond to you as you are just rehashing the other individual lame position. The other thing is, I don't care what you think of me or my service. The other thing is, if you don't know the difference between patriotism and treason, the debate is off on poor footing.

Now, I want to hear something about the simple math behind all these North Vietnamese women raped by Americans. I'm not even going to tell why this assertion is so stupid as to border on the psychotic. If you knew anything at all about the war in Vietnam, you would know, too. It just goes to show how truly ignorant you really are.

GradyPhilpott,

With all your respect as a veteran of war I will have to say that been a veteran does not make you and expert and that people in this forums do a lot of research to find the truth.

No everybody is ignorant and you don't need to be in war to know and learn about war.

And you don't have to be a politician to know how your country is doing and to say the least, Kerry does not have to apologize for his view in the war any more than bush did not apologize for not going into war.

Now if any of the so call pro bush can post in here were was bush during his missing time in the National Guard can he or she raise their hand please?

And the same way Americans committed atrocities in Iraq they had done also in any other war. After all we are only humans.

Originally posted by marg6043
With all your respect as a veteran of war I will have to say that been a veteran does not make you and expert and that people in this forums

My veteran status is noted in my biography as an important part of my life. It has come up in various forums relative to my experience with matters of war. This evening I related details of my Vietnam tour after someone questioned my having been alive during the Vietnam war.

Aside from that, I suppose it is of little consequence and I do a lot of research and my opinions and positions are based upon considerable knowledge and experience.

And I don't care how you cut it, GW never was AWOL or a deserter from the NG. Unauthorized absence, Absence over Leave, Absence without Leave and Desertion are all serious offenses that do not go unpunished. I don't care who you are.

Extremely nice response GradyPhilpott -- ok, not really. It's ok to hide from the truth as long as you can live with it. Seeing as your posting to a site whose motto is Deny Ignorance, I would suggest that you start doing it. You are the one who thinks that choosing to dissent is the same as treason. Those who run from the truth and decide to cover up their guilty conscious by continuing to hide from what is obvious will never better themselves as human beings.

I see you didn't read the link I provided, not that I thought you actually would. But you didn't address the fact that Americans raped thousands of Southern Vietnamese -- that's okay to you I guess, as long as no Northern Vietnamese were raped then all is well eh? You are a sick individual sir, but I will at least try to show you some simple math that would seem to show that a Northern Vietnamese citizen was raped by an American.

There were approximately 2 million+ total Americans who went to Vietnam. Out of those, roughly 1.6 million actually experienced combat.

So now we have 1,600,000 total Americans in Vietnam. Given that many incursions occurred in Northern Vietnam (see Secret Army, Secret War: Washington's Tragic Spy Operation in North Vietnam by Sedgwick Tourison) one must assume that at least half a percent of the total American forces were involved or went into N.V. If this is the case, about 8,000 total Americans ventured to and from N.V. Using the same statistics that occurred in Southern Vietnam (since a true statistic here can't be found, I'll use merely half a percent again to be nice) one can see that at least 40 of those 8,000 total Americans that ventured to and from N.V. committed at least one heinous act on a N.V. citizen. More then likely, at least one of those 40 did at least one rape. Using more realistic statistics, (I would say that about 20% of Americans participated in heinous atrocities in S.V., but since those who went to N.V. were probably more controlled, I'll say 10% in N.V.) I would say more on the lines of 120 heinous crimes occurred.

As you can see, using just simple math, the chances that a Northern Vietnamese woman was raped by an American appears to be valid.

Also, George Bush was AWOL Visit www.awolbush.com... for more information.

[edit on 23-8-2004 by Final_Wave]

Originally posted by Final_Wave
So now we have 1,600,000 total Americans in Vietnam. Given that many incursions occurred in Northern Vietnam (see Secret Army, Secret War: Washington's Tragic Spy Operation in North Vietnam by Sedgwick Tourison) one must assume that at least half a percent of the total American forces were involved or went into N.V. If this is the case, about 8,000 total Americans ventured to and from N.V. Using the same statistics that occurred in Southern Vietnam (since a true statistic here can't be found, I'll use merely half a percent again to be nice) one can see that at least 40 of those 8,000 total Americans that ventured to and from N.V. committed at least one heinous act on a N.V. citizen. More then likely, at least one of those 40 did at least one rape. Using more realistic statistics, (I would say that about 20% of Americans participated in heinous atrocities in S.V., but since those who went to N.V. were probably more controlled, I'll say 10% in N.V.) I would say more on the lines of 120 heinous crimes occurred.

As you can see, using just simple math, the chances that a Northern Vietnamese woman was raped by an American appears to be valid.

Your suffering from a severe case of Intracranial Fecalistic Pseudopsychosis. Your "math" is utter nonsense. Now put your halloween mask back on and go out and play, preferably in the street.

[edit on 04/8/23 by GradyPhilpott]

sighs... GradyPhilpott, my father always taught me not to do battle with those not intellectually prepared. I sincerely thought that you were serious, but with comments like that.... sighs. It depresses me to see a vet such as yourself filled with such foolishness. I truly wanted to believe that individuals gained wisdom with age, but it appears that those who willfully embrace ignorance will always do just that.

Good day to you sir.

[edit on 24-8-2004 by Final_Wave]