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Houston we have a problem : Breakup of Comet Elenin is slowing it down

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posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 12:24 PM
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reply to post by Valar God
 


Hmmm... actually I can work with those perspective too.

I *don't* know whether we went to the moon or not. I don't know whether relativity is true or not. I started with things that the average person accepts.

So ok let's work backwards then.

Where do you get your knowledge from? What do you use to define the difference between what you "Know" and what you just "Believe"? Is there a difference? Do you believe something that you know is false? If so, why? If not, then is there a difference between what you Know and what you Believe?

To reverse this back another step: Do you *know* that when you drink water it is helping you live? Have you tried *not* drinking water yourself to know? If not, then you merely believe. You believe (at least in regards to water) for good reasons... but you can't *know* that you will die if you stop drinking water. Yet at least.

You harp on people who are using their Beliefs in place of Knowledge. You are standing VERY firm on the stance that the moon landing is a Hoax. Ok... fair enough... is that your Belief, or is that your Knowledge? Have you *been* to the moon yourself to verify that nothing is there? Do you know that the images you are receiving into your eyes or mind are what is actually in front of you and you aren't simply experiencing through an impossible to detect filter?

I don't care what you do or don't believe... however I am willing to discuss the nature of Belief vs Knowledge, especially in regards to forming the foundations of what we "think is possible" or isn't possible.

Belief and Knowledge are the same thing. Some beliefs are justified, some are not. We call those which everyone collectively agrees to "Knowledge" and those that fringe people agree to "beliefs". That's the only difference. If 99% of the planet couldn't see red... the 1% that could would simply be told they "Believe" they see red, but Knowledge says it doesn't actually exist.

Edit: I have no problem with Tesla... and I agree that his knowledge has been suppressed. I also agree that Einstein's theories are going to eventually prove to be insufficient. That is the fundamental point I was making originally about "Knowledge". His theories were useful to explore a certain perspective, but eventually more will be understood.

You *believed* I disagreed with you, therefore you believed you had Knowledge about me or what I believe or think. It turns out your information was incomplete, therefor your Knowledge that you propose to use to ground your Beliefs was wrong... and it was in fact your Beliefs that created a FALSE Knowledge.

Namsate.
edit on 10-9-2011 by ErgoTheConfusion because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 12:35 PM
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reply to post by ErgoTheConfusion
 


You really have lot of free time on your hands
and it looks like you have nothing better to waste it on
than on proving .... something.

Unsuccessfully....

I just can't compete with that.

Apart from it being offtopic.



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 12:36 PM
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reply to post by Valar God
 


Believe what you wish.


Namaste.



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 01:46 PM
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Originally posted by Phage
Nonsense.

The orbit of the comet hasn't changed since it was discovered. What has changed is the accuracy of the calculations of its orbit. More observations = more accuracy. The calculated orbit has been essentially unchanged since February.

Please show when perihelion was ever calculated to occur on September 8th (as claimed in the foolish video), but before you try you should look at this:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
(Some of the nonsense posted here on ATS has actually turned out be useful!)

Please provide the revised orbital elements which indicate a delay of close approach to Earth.
edit on 9/9/2011 by Phage because: (no reason given)


Not according to the latest JPL figures which is where the three day change occured...



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by greenCo

Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by greenCo
 


You are absolutely right about velocity equaling mass times acceleration.

When you break something up, all the pieces have the same total mass as the original object. This is true for a comet moving through space.

As there is no change in mass.

There is no significant change in velocity.

There may be a tiny change due to the greater area of interaction with the solar wind due to the increase in area facing the Sun, but this is trivial as there was already an interaction with the solar wind before the break up.


No, each part has less mass, so less velocity (even though its relatively accelerating right now, because the perihelion thing). Its no more one object, but several ones. Furthermore, we don´t know the extent of this breaking happening to elenin.
edit on 9-9-2011 by greenCo because: (no reason given)


Correct - and I might add that NASA themselves have stated that Solar Wind can slow comets down - quote and source URL in the description to the video.



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by syrinx high priest
isn't this the comet that will come no closer that 2 million miles from earth ? why are people freaking out about this ?


Well, gee, maybe you should watch the video I opened the thread with...



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 01:51 PM
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Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by greenCo
 

All of the fragments would be in free fall, just as the original comet was. All of the fragments would be under the influence of the Sun's gravity to the same extent. As Galileo demonstrated, the rate of acceleration of a falling object is not dependent upon it's mass. There would be no noticeable change in velocity.

edit on 9/9/2011 by Phage because: (no reason given)


Not in a vacuum - but space is not a vacuum - Solar wind would affect the pieces more then the original mass - see quote below from NASA about Solar Wind affecting comet :

Closest to the sun: full development of the coma, bow shock, and the ion and dust tails

"As the comet moves toward perihelion, its closest position to the sun, its coma expands rapidly and begins to deflect the solar wind and the interplanetary magnetic field so that it wraps around the comet.

This clash between the solar wind and the coma is an extremely complex physical and chemical process. The closer the comet comes to the sun, the more intense this process becomes.

A myriad of chemical and physical processes occur simultaneously. The mostly neutral molecules emerging from the nucleus are blasted by UV light and solar radiation, causing them to fragment and recombine into new chemical species, become ionized (charged negatively or positively), or burst out of the region as x-rays.

Meanwhile the incoming ions from the solar wind begins to "pick up" or collect the slow-moving species from the coma, causing additional chemical and physical reactions.

All of this material erupting from the comet loads mass to the solar wind, slowing it down."

rosetta.jpl.nasa.gov...
edit on 10-9-2011 by Theophoros because: Bad URL

edit on 10-9-2011 by Theophoros because: typo



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by wWizard
So is this thing definitely breaking up or what?? Have we figured this out?


Some of us have - just the shills who haven't...



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by chr0naut

Originally posted by greenCo

Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by greenCo
 


You are absolutely right about velocity equaling mass times acceleration.

When you break something up, all the pieces have the same total mass as the original object. This is true for a comet moving through space.

As there is no change in mass.

There is no significant change in velocity.

There may be a tiny change due to the greater area of interaction with the solar wind due to the increase in area facing the Sun, but this is trivial as there was already an interaction with the solar wind before the break up.


No, each part has less mass, so less velocity (even though its relatively accelerating right now, because the perihelion thing). Its no more one object, but several ones. Furthermore, we don´t know the extent of this breaking happening to elenin.
edit on 9-9-2011 by greenCo because: (no reason given)


Then where does the mass go?

Are you saying that an orange falling to Earth at 9.8 m per sec per sec (in a vacuum, just to be anile about parameters) falls faster than the same orange cut into two halves?




Space is not a vacuum...



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by sligtlyskeptical
i don't know if Elelin has broken up or if it has changed velocity. However i will reply as if it has broken up.

What does make sense to me is that the energy which caused it to breakup could have had some influence both on it's velcoity and it's trajectory. All depends on why it broke up and what direction the force of the breakup was applied. It is quite possible, at least in my mind, that some pieces may have accelerated and some may have decelerated due to the force and direction of the separation.


Yup...



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 01:56 PM
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Originally posted by syrinx high priest
how is any of this relevant if the 2 km wide object is going to miss us by 2 million miles ?


Have you watched the video yet?



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by frugal
Did anyone notice Ancient Aliens TV show on Thursday was about how new diseases and plagues arrive via comets and meterorites? They deliberately said this is how the aliens would bring our numbers down discretely.
They talked about the black plague, the spanish flu, and other eppisodes of death during the darkened skies after meterorite strikes in the past. Bacteria such as salmonella becomes super salamonella after being weightless in space. It was an eye opening and disturbing show this week.
edit on 9-9-2011 by frugal because: (no reason given)


I'm thinking that is the origins for the Orange Goo Spoors up in Alaska - haven't seen a thread on that one yet - you aught to start one...



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by James1982
I'm curious about something....

All you people that think you know that Elenin is going to hit/kill/effect/what-the-heck-ever us, what information do you base this on? Youtube videos and "leaked" inside information? You make a point of belittling people that believe NASA, yet your own "sources" (if you have any) are even less reliable. Has NASA EVER been wrong about a comet causing problems for earth? Have they ever said "no, it won't hit us, it won't effect us" only to have said comet actually hit and/or effect us? Think about that.

Now look at your "sources" which most likely have predicted numerous dooms days in the past that never happened. They were probably wrong about 100% of their previous information.

Compare the two, and just think to yourself.

Why anyone thinks Elenin is anything other than a boring tiny little comet that will pass earth without anything happening is beyond me.


Do you always argue from silence?



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 01:58 PM
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reply to post by Theophoros
 


All of this material erupting from the comet loads mass to the solar wind, slowing it down.

rosetta.jpl.nasa.gov...

Yes, the material accumulated by the solar wind causes the solar wind to slow down near the comet. This is what causes the bow shock to form.

The solar wind and interplanetary magnetic field lines confronting the comet begin to pick up particles expelled from the comet. This mass loading of the solar wind begins to slow it down from supersonic speed to subsonic speed. As the decelerating solar wind confronts the growing coma, a bow shock forms, similar to the reactive wave that forms in front of a ship (the bow) as it plows through the oncoming waves of a current at sea.

rosetta.jpl.nasa.gov...

The comet does not slow down, nor do fragments larger than particles. It is too massive to be noticeably affected by the solar wind.

edit on 9/10/2011 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by sligtlyskeptical
 


There's no super space razor to provide any friction against.

The comet was made from stuff that is gaseous at normal Earth temperatures but is frozen out in space. As it came close to the Sun it got warm, melted & out-gassed.

It's orbital velocity remains unchanged.

The video & OP were wrong. As Phage posted, the relative orbital velocity is increasing as it approaches perihelion (part of the orbital mechanics) and this is quite the opposite of slowing down.

It wasn't going to hit us. It isn't going to hit us. We are at least 21 MILLION miles away at its closest pass. It is small. It cannot effect us gravitationally or electrically. It is not in orbit around the Sun and so we've never seen it before. When it exits the solar system, it will never return. And now, to top it all off, it has broken up into a cloud even before hitting perihelion.

It is simply a non-event.

All the BS said about it in the last few months (including the OP) is patently, obviously a waste of bandwidth. How people can't see such things are nonsense and keep repeating the same crap so often is the real conspiracy.

A conspiracy of stupidity and ignorance.

Deny it!

Deny ignorance.


I am denying your ignorance - see previously posted quote from NASA stating Solar Wind can slow comets down...



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 02:01 PM
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reply to post by Theophoros
 

See previous post pointing out what the article actually says.



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 02:01 PM
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reply to post by Theophoros
 


rearmungers i mean fearmungers



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by Lono1
reply to post by chr0naut
 


You know, I really haven't enough information to make any kind of intelligent judgment on what it will or will not do. You know, things like composition, density, reactivity, etc. All I know is that some experts say its a comet, and those same experts say its made out of ice. We are finding new elements in space everyday. Imagine if it were partly made of raw sodium, or magnesium, or lithium and it came through the atmosphere to land in water? Imagine if it were made of any reactive substance at all?

Its just as likely that it is indeed made of swiss cheese, and will plop right down on the dinner table.

Im really not attempting to be cheeky here, just to say that if you are always worried about "what-ifs" you could spend your entire life worrying about them, and avoid living a fulfilling life all together...

There are literally so many variables that it is useless to worry about what will happen...

So, without any knowledge of what the thing is actually made of (and by this I mean first hand knowledge, not what you have heard from a press release) we have no idea...whatsoever... what could happen.

Its all just... good speculation.


If it was made out of ice then why doesn't it have a tail yet?

The fact that it does not have a tail this close to the sun implies that it composed of a very solid materail and sense we know other comets contain iron ferrite then it is a logical conclusion that this comet is possibly almost entirely composed of that material.



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by fooks
it can't slow down unless it is under power. controlled, in other words, even if it was breaking up.

if anything it should speed up as it gets closer to the gravity well of the sun.

and breaking up of this thing can be a bummer if the frags get too far apart.



Wrong - see previous quote from NASA stating that solar wind can slow a comet down - quote is also in the description of the video.



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 02:04 PM
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Originally posted by Lono1
reply to post by Swills
 


Yeah, it has gotten a little old, and is a sorry use of bandwidth. I just wish if there is another thread on it, it has something ...new...or

nevermind. Unless theres proof, Im tired of it as well...


Your avatar is a sorry use of bandwidth...




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