Atlantis misconceptions?

I'm new to atlantis. But I hear a lot of dissenting opinion. One group says atlantis was highly technologically advanced beyond what there is today. Another group says they were fairly above the most advanced civilization at the time(which is not so advanced).

It was even said that some philosopher(plato? Aristotle?) found atlantis and claimed it to be a place of fascinating devices. Unfortunately, we still havent even found any strong proof suggesting they had any advanced piece of equipment. So whats really so special about atlantis if many would agree it wasnt a place of majesty and splendor?????

I'd highly recommend reading some of the threads on this...

Just to clear up...we have ONE historical source for Atlantis...

It is a literary work called, "The Dialogue of Critius" by the philosopher Plato. In turn, he learned of the city from Solon, an Egyptian priest. According to Plato and Solon, Atlantis existed 9000 years prior to Plato's time (who lived in Ancient Greece). He was describing a place that was described to him, not a place he had been.

Advanced technology is not mentioned in the dialogue, and is the stuff of artistic license taken by sci-fi authors.

Please check my links in the Case for Atlantis being in South America thread, as one of those links is to the original dialogue by Plato. Read it closely, as he describes both ancient Greece, AND Atlantis... Don't confuse the two... He makes it clear when he switches gears...

What's special about Atlantis, is that they were described as being about as capable as the societies of Ancient Greece and Egypt, and yet YEARS before either. The idea of a lost civilization is certainly intriguing, and of course, served as the springboard for sci-fi authors' imaginings on what else was lost....

[edit on 23-8-2004 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by Gazrok
I'd highly recommend reading some of the threads on this...

Just to clear up...we have ONE historical source for Atlantis...

It is a literary work called, "The Dialogue of Critius" by the philosopher Plato.

Rember tho, that there is also Hellanicus' book called "Atlantis". I read about this in the soc.history.ancient newgroup here. Apparently "Rodney Castleden's Atlantis Destroyed," also mentions it, or so i am told here

here, proportedly, is a translation of a fragement:

What still exists includes the line 'Poseidon mated with Celaeno, and their son Lycus was settled by his father in the Isles of the Blest and made immortal.'

look here also for more info and this:

A transcription and/or translation of Hellanicus Atlantis I fragment is in:

Robert L. Fowler, Early Greek Mythography Volume 1: Text and
Introduction. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2000. Pp. xlviii,
459. ISBN 0-19-814740-6.

Princeton has this information, which I think indicates that they have the text, or a copy of it or somesuch
HELLANICUS. Atlantis I
AM 4096; P.Oxy. VIII 1084: Frame 8
Published: Grenfell and Hunt, The Oxyrhynchus Papyri VIII (1911)
Oxyrhynchus, II A.D.
Upper margin 1.0 cm.
Papyrus
Greek
11.5 x 7.9 cm.
17 lines

anyway, this isn't definitive of course, since, as far as I have been able to gather, it doesn't, or at least the fragment remaining doesn't, explicitly mention atlantis.

Maybe if it mentions corn and coconuts the south american idea which you favour will be vindicated?

Glory? Splendor? They had some devices yes,but most of humanity was regarded as slaves,the 'Things" less than Man.
The Ruling class....absolute power.Some mythology tells tales of these rulers.I mentioned some of it in the Prophesy thread.
Splendor? Buildings made out of rock or stone.Your comfort level today,even for an average citizen is far higher.
"If it evidence that you wish,it was destroyed long ago. Looters.Alexandria,ect.Just ruins ." 2IC

According to Critias, Atlantis existed around 9400 BC or so, had rich soil, was rich in a natural alloy of copper and gold, and was at a technological level which allowed for a military based on spearmen, chariots, and slingers. This would be stunning if it really happened in 9400BC, but other than that, not so fantastic.

I suggest research on the Panathena (spelling?). It is a celebration which (if I read properly) it is a festival that celebrates the Athenian victory over the nation of Poseidon. I dont know what you'll find. It's one of those things I never got around to really checking out properly.

Originally posted by The Vagabond

I suggest research on the Panathena (spelling?). It is a celebration which (if I read properly) it is a festival that celebrates the Athenian victory over the nation of Poseidon. I dont know what you'll find. It's one of those things I never got around to really checking out properly.

It would be interesting if that was the true spelling of the celebration, Panathena because the word Pan is used in so many Mexican, Central American and South American villages.

In my oppinion I would say the ancient Americans originally came from Northeast Asia because of the usage of the word Pan, for example: Japan, Tipan, and others.

I know the Meso-Americans decorated and honored the Jaguar but is there any connection to the Panther (is it Latin derived or something else?) of that culture with the usage of pan in it?

I doubt the Atlanteans called themselves "the people of Poseidon" either.... Plato even admits to using the Hellenic names, not their own...

I think Plato's comments on their military was largely his imaginings based on Solon's reports...and him trying to relate this to a Greek audience.

As for the time...there is something in the method of translation, that could be 900 years vs. 9000 years. (can't remember the details, but I've seen many researchers point to it)....

Originally posted by lostinspace
the ancient Americans originally came from Northeast Asia because of the usage of the word Pan, for example: Japan, Tipan, and others.

Isn't japan called nippon by the japanese? Also, Pan is a mythical creature to the greeks, the god of the forest, and pan mean 'all', ie 'pangea' 'all land' and 'panathena' would mean cf 'all of athens' i suspect. The 'panther' might be the 'forest cat' or something, but thats just a uneducated wild guess.

gazrok:
900 years vs. 9000

I think there was one candidate for atlantis where people realized that if you reduce or enlarge plato's size estimates by a factor of 10 you get a match to thier candidate.


[edit on 26-8-2004 by Nygdan]

[edit on 29-8-2004 by Nygdan]

Here's what I found in the naming of the cat family.

animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu...

Pantherinae (Leopards, Lions, and Tigers)
Panthera= Roaring Cats

Panthera Leo= Lion
Panthera Onca= Jaguar
Panthera Pardus= Leopard
Panthera Tigris= Tiger

Originally posted by lostinspace

Panthera Onca= Jaguar

I wonder if it's just a coincidence that Onca is close to the word Inca because of this civilization's high regard for the Jaguar.

[edit on 26-8-2004 by lostinspace]

originally posted by Lostinspace
I wonder if it's just a coincidence that Onca is close to the word Inca because of this civilization's high regard for the Jaguar.

I didn't pay a second thought to your post until I saw a word in wikipedia which just sounded familiar somehow. Onga- the Phoenecian name for Athena. We'd be opening up a huge can of worms if we claimed a connection just based on this though. First of all, just because it is spelled one letter off in our alphabet doesn't mean that it sounded or looked so close in the original language. Also, the sound/spelling similarity is supposed to be one of the first things to go, so if we drew a connection between Athena/Onga and Panter/Onca we'd have to assume that these two civilizations were extremely close relatives. We'd also have to throw what we know about Athena out the window in large part, since she's supposed to be a Berber goddess originally, and is generally associated with an owl, not a cat of any kind. All that being said, it's still sorta interesting in a simple "feel it in your bones" sort of way, isn't it?


As for the nation of Poseidon:

from wikipedia on Atlanits
An important Greek festival of Pallas Athene, the Panathenaea was dated from the days of king Theseus. It consisted of a solemn procession to the Acropolis in which a peplos was carried to the goddess, for she had once saved the city, gaining victory over the nation of Poseidon, that is, the Atlanteans. As Lewis Spence comments, this cult was in existence already 125 years before Plato, which means that the story could not be invented by him.

So we've got a late end date of 575BC, right? If we take the 900 years answer, it's more like 1350 BC, right? Thats only about 70 years off from the Mycenaeans overtaking the Minoans, which was made possible by a series of disasters, some suspected to be earthquakesl, which culiminated in the erruption of Thera. This would make a pretty convincing Atlantis story.


Can anybody tell me who if anyone was particularly fond of Poseidon, or any other God that might not mesh too well with Athena? Do we have any record of his cult, and where from?

I feel bad that I can't dive into this stuff like I used to, and that I can't rattle off textbook answers at will, but I build colleges- I don't attend them. Maybe one of these days I'll get crucified for an attempted coup, then my followers can collect tithes and i'll have enough money to go to college (as long as -all- carpenters get to come back from the dead).

I've got a cooking pan - d'yer think that comes form Atlantis? Or Japan? Or is made out of jaguars?

Trying to establish connections between different cultures and different time periods based purely on similarity of names - especially short, one syllable ones - is a fools game.

The greek word 'pan' means 'all' (as in panacea - 'cure all'; pantheon - 'all gods' etc). Other words begining with pan derived from the pastoral 'goat god' Pan - as in panic.

And saucepan is derived from something else altogether. As is panda and Japan

Horses were not domesticated that long ago. Besides,chariots were for sport,not combat. But keep watching those old movies.
Know why they don't show charioteers in movies anymore? It is too dangerous!

Originally posted by lostinspace

Originally posted by lostinspace

Panthera Onca= Jaguar

I wonder if it's just a coincidence that Onca is close to the word Inca because of this civilization's high regard for the Jaguar.

[edit on 26-8-2004 by lostinspace]

Onca may look similar to Inca, but the word is not Onca, it's On�a, and it sounds like "Onsa".

Personally, I subscribe to the story of Atlantis being an embellishment on the decline of the Minoans due to the eruption of Thera, which destroyed a very important trade center of the Minoans that rested in the caldera prior to eruption. The rapid and violent destruction witnessed by any survivors would certainly have made a great moral tale for passing down through the ages.


Of course the 'Atlantis' of the Annunaki would have been much different, and may have existed(or not), but that certainly was before 9000BC and was not the one Plato was reffering to.

Originally posted by Gazrok
I'd highly recommend reading some of the threads on this...

Just to clear up...we have ONE historical source for Atlantis...

And I'll add that this is one thing that pretty much seals the case for Atlantis being a literary fiction. The ancients kept a lot of records and there aren't plays or poems to Atlantis (the tragedy would have been fuel for a lot of Greek plays... as Troy (an equally ancient city) was. There's no records of trading and no records of ambassadors to or from Atlantis... etc.

"Troy was nowhere near as old as Atlantis."2IC

I know,they found it.It was just a fortified village on a rise.
"It was big news back then..."

Originally posted by stgeorge
chariots were for sport,not combat. But keep watching those old movies.

Chariot armies were the mainstay of advanced civilizations in the anceitn world and particualrly in the early bronze age. The Egyptians are famous for their massed chariot armies and the myceneans also invested heavily in chariots. Chariots. or at least 'battle wagons' were very popular in the sumer/iraq area also. The british, when the romans invaded their island, were attacked by chariot forces also; not, mind you, anything like the old chariot based armies, but they were used in those wars too.

Did '2ic' tell you this? WHo is '2ic', is there a source for these random quotes you keep giving out? If they told you chariots were used for sport rather than war, then you should realize that '2ic' is entirely unreliable.

byrd:
The ancients kept a lot of records and there aren't plays or poems to Atlantis

There is a fragment of a text preseverde, written by 'Hellanicus', titled Atlantis, and concerning in its text poseidon and his sons (at least I think it was his sons. Of course, if there was some gigantic empire like atlantis is suposed to have been, there probably would be a little more evidence than just this

And I'll add that this is one thing that pretty much seals the case for Atlantis being a literary fiction. The ancients kept a lot of records and there aren't plays or poems to Atlantis (the tragedy would have been fuel for a lot of Greek plays... as Troy (an equally ancient city) was. There's no records of trading and no records of ambassadors to or from Atlantis... etc.

Something I don't do often...disagreeing with Byrd, hehe...

There are THREE distinct times in the text that Plato makes it clear he is speaking of a FACT and not just a tale. Atlantis was an ancient legend even to the Egyptians... The other Greeks did not know of it, because even their roots weren't around at the time... The Greeks may not have evidence of trade with South America, but ancient Egypt does..(just look into their mummies for herbs and flowers found only there).

Plato had to do a lot of "dress up" to make it palatable to the Greeks, and to make them understand it better...this is something he even clearly admits to in the dialogue....

As a person of an anthropological bent Byrd, have you ever looked into the history and culture of the people of the Altiplano? You may find it interesting.... I think you'd be surprised....

Massed chariot armies? here we go again. Just how big were these armies? Did every man have a chariot? Or like the Knights of old,did only the Nobles have a steed or even armour?
Like the Persian army that invaded Greece.A hundred thousand they say? Really? WE have trouble keeping that many in the field today,and the Persians were on foot,no wagons,no medics,no nothing. Perhaps ten thousand.History as a rule is exagerrated ten times.
Chariots? How did you care for a horse as well as the men? Forget riding it,just having a pack on its back too long and they will rebel.
Forget the movies,most of which were silent and started this.The audience fell for it 90 years ago and so did you!