Sin, What is it, and is it Anything We Need to be Concerned About?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

I meant as a mechanism for personal and mutual growth and well being, so as to begin the process of rubbing out the blindspot that causes us to sin needlessly or unconsciously. There has to be discipline, I don't think anyone would deny that, that in many areas we're going to have to move against the flow of bad habit for a while, to get flowing in the right direction.

I just get a bit edgy whenever I see certain words, that's all.
I think you said something about there not necessarily being a law. Even this list I posted on the creation thread is really not a law. Paul was spelling things out because the converts were living in a pretty unrestrained culture when it came to getting pleasure so he had to tell then that things like going to orgies was not good and not the sort of thing you should be doing, apparently because there was nothing in their culture that would suggest otherwise. So what Paul was doing was to set up a sort of manual of discipline but hated it that he had to do it.

We're all forgiven in the next life...as long as you ask for forgiveness...but God can't be fooled by the ones who demonize his children...they know who they are and they want to live forever for they fear God's wrath.

reply to post by FreedomKnight


That's an interesting statement. Maybe some of us simply wish to see ignorance dispelled, and for God to make his home with all his children while they are still alive, in part by forgiving, as we are forgiven, because until we forgive, and stop all demoniziing, then we cannot be forgiven..

Originally posted by FreedomKnight
We're all forgiven in the next life...as long as you ask for forgiveness...but God can't be fooled by the ones who demonize his children...they know who they are and they want to live forever for they fear God's wrath.

Your philosophy seems to be:
everyone is saved except for those who say not everyone will be saved, which now that you said that, would include yourself.

Mt 22:36 “[Jesus], which is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him, ’You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”

Essentially, be fair and just to one another and never place anyone or anything higher than God. To miss this mark is to sin. It is not too hard to follow the “golden rule”, however, most seem to confuse Christianity with Judaism and say that we have to (as Christians) also obey the laws from the Torah (Old Testament), I personally believe this is a misconception that often leads doctrine that is contradictory.

reply to post by TheThirdAdam
Jesus was asked about the Law of Moses and he gave the correct answer to the question.
What is the law for Christians has to do with how we treat other people.
Believing in Jesus is what makes us Christians in the first place so having a second law about how we treat God would be redundant.

reply to post by jmdewey60


right you my friend...

so why is it that we always seem to get hung up on moral philosophy as christians? i always thought that the Jesus made it as simple and clear as possible

In the OP you refer to Romans 3 as does one of our other contributors to this thread

despite my understanding that Hebrew concepts are much deeper than what we see when we read the Greek New Testament, allow me to provide a brief synopsis of some key terms and commonly overlooked contextual meanings, and hopefully I will do the topic justice....

Romans 3:23 - "all have sinned and fallen short of glory of God"
the phrase here of 'fallen short" in English as the word provided in Greek is "(H)armatia" which by translation is also used when an archer fires an arrow from his bow, and it lands short of the target

this implies that the archer was actually aiming for the target, in this case, the glory of God (or to share in such glory, perfection, acceptance, absolution of sin)

there are keys in Romans 3 if we were to read the whole chapter instead of focussing on what is LESS THAN HALF a verse, romans 3:23
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

note the semi colon at the end of 3:23. and at the end of preceding verse, 3:22, and verse 21 before that, and colon verse 24, semi colon again verse 25, full stop end verse 26

so in actual fact, 3:23 is part of ONE SENTENCE as follows:

021: But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
022: Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
023: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
024: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
025: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
026: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

So, who is 'justified'? - all who sinned - provided what? - you believe in Ya'shuah

Allow me to further demostrate, by way of the definition of sin, from Ya'shuah's discourse in John 16:

007: Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
008: And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
009: Of sin, because they believe not on me;
010: Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
011: Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

and so - by definition, and joining these sections of scripture together what is the sin? and what is the cure?
and so, for a believing one, the single sin is to not believe in Him

more proof? "this is the work of YHWH, that you believe in him who YHWH has sent"

what annoys our Father in Heaven, YHWH ? - - - -> unbelief

every sin is the result of unbelief - you dont believe His word that He is YHWH Jireh (provider) so you steal, you dont believe you can be sexually satisfied so you commit adultery, you dont believe you can (insert here) and so you (insert resulting behaviour here)


as an aside, in reference to the post on 'be ye therefore perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect"' the Greek word used for 'perfect' is 'teleioi (teleios)" which means 'mature' - the following extract from biblefood.com may be of assistance here:


Phil 3:12 Paul says he is NOT "perfect", and in Phil 3:15 Paul says "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded", in other words, the ones who were perfect should keep on thinking that they are NOT "perfect". The full meaning of this passage would be clear to the Koine Greek speaking world of Paul's day. But we can't see the words Paul used for "perfect" and the verb tenses in our English Bibles. The word for "perfect" in both verses 12 and 15 is a form of the Greek word "teleios", meaning "MATURE". But in verse 12, "teleios" is a "perfect, passive, indicative VERB". In verse 15, "teleios" is an ADJECTIVE. In verse 12, Paul uses the "perfect" tense verb to indicate that he had not reached a final absolute state of maturity, but he still needs to grow himself. In verse 15, Paul uses the adjective "teleios", to tell the Christians at Philippi who were relatively mature to "be thus minded", or to realize that they will have plenty of room to grow spiritually the rest of their life also.


and slightly off topic but related to a recently closed ultra religous policeman thread about masterbation - there is not a single scripture to support the idea that it is considered a sin.

be of good courage - stay close to the Lamb

reply to post by jmdewey60


I have a special relationship with God and I know my judgement on the day I move on from here. I do not judge others or myself...that belongs to a higher power.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


That was my point exactly...Thank you!! We are not perfect, we all make mistakes. It takes true strength and courage to ask for forgiveness whether it be God or man.

reply to post by Highlander64

. . .the phrase here of 'fallen short" in English as the word provided in Greek is "(H)armatia" which by translation is also used when an archer fires an arrow from his bow, and it lands short of the target. . .

I don't know if you have the two things mixed up here, the sin and the falling short.(check the Greek text)
I can give an analogy using the same scenario I used earlier for missing the mark, this time to explain the "falling short", where you have a group of looters claiming their booty, but instead of distributing the loot trough throwing lots, you decide that the last man through the door into the house where the valuable four vessels were found, gets none, being the fifth man to show up.
To apply the analogy, you have the reader in the place of this member of a group who when it comes time to share in the bounty gets left out by both means of determining distribution, by throwing your lot, and by when you came into the scene.

reply to post by sageofmonticello

Sin = Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.

We can also sin unintentionally.

Originally posted by FreedomKnight
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

I have a special relationship with God and I know my judgement on the day I move on from here. I do not judge others or myself...that belongs to a higher power.

No, you just decide who you think God will judge, and then tell them so (but in a slightly veiled sort of way). If you believe someone is teaching falsely, you should point out their error and what they should be teaching. It could be that you are upset with how religionists tell people they can't be saved, so you don't like anyone putting restrictions like that on others. But Jesus came and taught and he had apostles who he sent out to teach, so why did he do that, if it was all unnecessary? Something needs to be said but whoever does the saying needs to be careful that they are saying the right thing. Your point is a valid contribution which is that we should ask for salvation and I would amplify it a bit by saying we should demand it. So if that is all that needs to be done, according to you, then I would not be hindering anyone from salvation, according to your belief, by saying something else that seems a bit restrictive, because I would also suggest to everyone to ask for forgiveness regardless of what I may say in addition to that.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sageofmonticello

 

Sin = Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.

We can also sin unintentionally.

That is an Old Testament concept because there was no recourse for intentional sin because that would have excluded you from Israel by death or banishment.
I believe the New Testament thinking disregards unintentional "sins" as just part of being human and that actual sin is being cut off from God. So my point is that I think sin is trivialized into a lot of rather insignificant acts, which turns Christianity into a works based religion. Those insignificant things should not be considered sin and we need to worry about the real sin which is what removes us from the community of God. (which is as suggested earlier, lack of belief or not following the promptings of the Holy Spirit, and thus closing our minds from it)

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sageofmonticello

 

Sin = Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.

We can also sin unintentionally.

So says you...
Take it up with the dictionary. Your response sounds more like your personal beliefs. How is it that you have come to this conclusion? What makes what you say true and factual? Specifically, why do you believe this? These would be things I would like to follow your assertion. Just some honest questions here, don't read to much into them, just asking.

Sin - Theology
a. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.

www.thefreedictionary.com...

I am not saying I have the correct definition of sin according to god, I am saying I have never met God, don't know what God considers the definition of sin is, or even if God cares about such things. I looked in the dictionary, which is the usual place to go if one would like to define a word. It might benefit the conversation if I was to say I am Agnostic, if I must be labeled in such context. Personally I find the idea of "sin" and "sinning" kinda strange. Just being honest. This is my reason for participating in this discussion. I do find the topic interesting.

This doesn't mean that I think it is OK for people to act nuts and do whatever they like, I just think it is presumptuous for one to say they "know" something that by definition can't be known. Maybe somebody can shed some light on that for me.

I guess what I am asking is, what makes ones definition of sin valid when alternate definitions exist?

I am not asking anyone to defend their religion and I am not trying to attack any religion, just asking for explanations.

ETA: So I don't derail this thread anymore by going too of topic, I made a new one here. Thanks.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by sageofmonticello

So says you...
Take it up with the dictionary. Your response sounds more like your personal beliefs. How is it that you have come to this conclusion? What makes what you say true and factual? Specifically, why do you believe this? These would be things I would like to follow your assertion. Just some honest questions here, don't read to much into them, just asking.

Sin - Theology
a. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.

I feel like I'm in 3rd grade again and being scolded by a teacher. Calm down, take a deep breath or two, this is just the internet.

Notice the word "deliberate"?

de·lib·er·ate
adjective /diˈlibərit/ 

Done consciously and intentionally
- a deliberate attempt to provoke conflict

Fully considered; not impulsive
- a deliberate decision

Done or acting in a careful and unhurried way
- a careful and deliberate worker

You can sin unintentially and without fore-though, motive, or consideration. It's possible to commit a sin of omission and commission without deliberate thought. Just the other day I got rude with someone who was rude to me first. I was hot, tired, and sweating from working all day and immediately after I was convicted by the Holy Spirit and had to repent for not honoring and loving all men irregardless of how they treat me. I repented immediately.

It was not a deliberate sin, but it was against the will of God, therefore a sin.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sageofmonticello

 

Sin = Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.

We can also sin unintentionally.

That is an Old Testament concept because there was no recourse for intentional sin because that would have excluded you from Israel by death or banishment.
I believe the New Testament thinking disregards unintentional "sins" as just part of being human and that actual sin is being cut off from God. So my point is that I think sin is trivialized into a lot of rather insignificant acts, which turns Christianity into a works based religion. Those insignificant things should not be considered sin and we need to worry about the real sin which is what removes us from the community of God. (which is as suggested earlier, lack of belief or not following the promptings of the Holy Spirit, and thus closing our minds from it)

See above.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

It's possible to commit a sin of omission and commission without deliberate thought.

That is just philosophy and not from the New Testament.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

It's possible to commit a sin of omission and commission without deliberate thought.

That is just philosophy and not from the New Testament.

Absurd. I don't need the Word to tell me sometimes I slip up and make mistakes, and not with fore-thought and determined resolve. The Holy Spirit's conviction is quite enough to concern me that He is not pleased with whatever mistake I make.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

It's possible to commit a sin of omission and commission without deliberate thought.

That is just philosophy and not from the New Testament.

So every sin possibly committed is determined, and deliberately thought about beforehand? Every one?