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Church and State Seperation

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posted on Aug, 23 2004 @ 12:04 PM
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How come we constantly make laws on religion. Marrige is a religous thing. Yet we have a number of laws restricting it. And many Congressmen seem to want to make an amendment that would govern who can get married (gay marrige amendment). Then in some cases children will be placed in foster homes simply because of there parents beliefs such as Satanism. What happened to seperation of church and state. If we can govern religion than we will have lost our status as the land of the free.




posted on Aug, 23 2004 @ 11:08 PM
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Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Though many people assume the 1st Amendment sets out some separation, the phrase does not appear in the Constitution. The phrase "Seperation of Church and State" , or a "wall of seperation", appears to have been coined by Jefferson, in speaking of the religious liberties granted by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Madison, however, said that there is a line between church and state, not a wall - the distinction may or may not be significant.

In practice the separation is more theoretical than actual. In a truly separate society, we would not invoke the name of God on our currency, nor would we speak so highly of our Judeo-Christian values. But we do - the fact of the matter is, completely separating religion and government is probably impossible, so long as religion is an important part of the lives of the citizenry. The best we can hope for, and what I think the Constitution tries to protect, is to ensure that there is no discrimination on the basis of religious belief - that there be no religion litmus test.

to you scholars
: Thus the "Seperation of Church and State" is not a law. It's nothing more but an urban legend =]










[edit on 8/23/2004 by s13guy]



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 08:36 AM
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I for one believe in full seperation of church and state. Although the government has done a good job of seperating it these days.

The USA is a diverse nation with people coming from many religious belief s ystem backgrounds. Instituting one religious belief system as the main religion would be unfair.



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 09:40 AM
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Originally posted by RedOctober90
I for one believe in full seperation of church and state. Although the government has done a good job of seperating it these days.


its in our money, our money!!



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 03:04 PM
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What do you mean "nor would we speak so highly of our Judeo-Christian values."? Those rules are not christian in origin. Not even Jewish in origin. No killing? that is older than religon, that is common sense. No rape, no stealing, also common sense and older then the jews and christians. No sleeping around on your wife, also older then jews and christians. The rules we follow are not Judeo-Christian in origin, they are common sense. Also the Egyptians and Witches had those rules. And yes, witches, they didn't sacrifice or kill or rape and pillage, that is christian crap taught by the church to the people.

Using common sense to make laws is not using Judeo-Christian values. We have a seperation of church and state as much as possible. The god in money is wrong, but I am not up for the millions it would cost to create millions of new 1's, 5's, 10's, 20's 50's and 100's.



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by James the Lesser
No rape, no stealing, also common sense and older then the jews and christians. No sleeping around on your wife, also older then jews and christians. The rules we follow are not Judeo-Christian in origin, they are common sense.


It is not common sense not to steal, rape etc.... these are values that are taught, we are not born with them.



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 05:01 PM
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Says who? I never went to church, I don't believe in the bible. I believe in a different religon created by me and JamesG. I was never told that raping and stealing was wrong. I just know it is wrong. The only people who don't know it is wrong are sociopaths and have other forms of mental problems. I never had to sit and listen to a guy drone on and tell me how I was going to hell unless I gave him money to know that rape and stealing was wrong. I have something called a brain, and in this brain it tells me that things like rape and stealing and murder is wrong. I didn't need for someone who believe in all mighty powerful invisable people that live in the clouds to tell me how to live, I knew how to live.



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 05:02 PM
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Before the greek had a patriarchy, they had a matriarchy because women needed to band together for reasons such as being raped, impregnated, beaten, ect...

It was barbaric... Naturally men wouldn't take care of their young, they would just leave and go rape someone else, just like animals do...

We are a civilized nation and thus should act like ethical human beings and have regard for other human life, suffice it to say the least these judges could take a hint as well as the court system.



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by James the Lesser
Says who?

a lot of psychologists, its a known fact. I think you may be confusing Common sense with Conscious??


Originally posted by James the Lesser
I never went to church, I don't believe in the bible


I used to go to church and believed in the bible. I never heard a sermon tell me explicitly "Rape is wrong", its assumed we already know this through the media and our parents. We are taught its wrong, we are not born knowing this. I bet you could even teach a child raping is right (just for sake of argument)


Originally posted by James the Lesser
I believe in a different religon created by me and JamesG

so your saying common sense and religion are irrelevant, whats the relevance of mentioning this?


Originally posted by James the Lesser
I was never told that raping and stealing was wrong. I just know it is wrong.

Right
And i suppose you were already born smiling at your parents, just like baby jesus



Originally posted by James the Lesser
The only people who don't know it is wrong are sociopaths and have other forms of mental problems.

So people who steal are sociopaths and have mental problems too? I dont think theres anything wrong with stealing for your starving family.


Originally posted by James the Lesser
I never had to sit and listen to a guy drone on and tell me how I was going to hell unless I gave him money to know that rape and stealing was wrong.

I dont recall the priests saying " Gimme yer monies or yer damned!" I also have never heard a priest say "Rape is Evil", really i haven't. the only way i knew rape was bad is when i started seeing guys getting arrested for rape on the 10:00 news. But most of us were taught a lot earlier that it is wrong to inappropriately touch someone w/o consent .


Originally posted by James the Lesser
I have something called a brain, and in this brain it tells me that things like rape and stealing and murder is wrong.

I wonder how your brain came to those conclusions right after birth, gee i hope someday i can meet a divine individual like yourself



Originally posted by James the Lesser
I didn't need for someone who believe in all mighty powerful invisable people that live in the clouds to tell me how to live, I knew how to live.

no, you needed your parents to tell you how to live. darn kids think they know everything these day dont they? (im 17 lol)

[edit on 8/24/2004 by s13guy]



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 06:28 PM
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you should be standup comedian s13guy, you are right about human beings, there is nature vs nurture, when it comes to human beings we have to be nurtured and educated through our environment to understand right from wrong.

Feral children are just that because they have no human being to "teach" them what ethical behaviour is.

It's the laws of nature...You see something you like you go after it, you see a threatening situation you either flee or fight, your hungry you eat, your tired you sleep.. We're just like animals...



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 06:39 PM
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in some cases children will be placed in foster homes simply because of there parents beliefs such as Satanism.


?

I have never heard of any of these cases? If true, then sadly, I would assume that all non Judeo-Christian children would be placed in foster homes due to thier Pagan/Heathen , no ?

Church and State seperation seems quite the urban legend, its quite evident that many of our leaders, as preachers of equality they may be, are still religio-inuendo laced. Homosexual marriage, as stated by you and others, is a good example of where ones religious bias hurts the autonomy of society. The vehemence of our leaders against gay marriage is unfair, un democratic, and more-so, as alein as this may seem, unreligious.

Man, if not Homo-sapien, is also Homo-Religious.

Deep



posted on Aug, 25 2004 @ 09:52 AM
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Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Church and State seperation seems quite the urban legend, its quite evident that many of our leaders, as preachers of equality they may be, are still religio-inuendo laced.


Precisely. Just because someone (government/media/law) claims that something it true does not make it so. Perhaps it was when this country first began *coughburningwitches/paganscough*, but it seems quite clear to me that everything is influenced by one means or another by a religious bias in America.



posted on Aug, 25 2004 @ 12:56 PM
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Uh, jesus was born smiling? Prove it.

I am sure the Greeks went out and did that. Prove it.

I am sure before christianity came along people behaved like animals. Prove it.

The Matriarch goes back to Witchcraft and Druids who had a god and goddess. They didn't act like what you say people did before christianity. To believe people had no morals or rules before christianity is going against ATS belief of denying ignorance.



posted on Aug, 25 2004 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by James the Lesser
Uh, jesus was born smiling? Prove it.

My grandfather said so, he also said that the same baby came from a woman who had never had sex, and that he could walk on water and had all kinds of other super powers.


Originally posted by James the Lesser
I am sure the Greeks went out and did that. Prove it.

why dont you disprove it with something credible


Originally posted by James the Lesser
I am sure before christianity came along people behaved like animals. Prove it.

As I am sure before there were civlizations, there were civilized people. (btw a religion wasnt the thing to teach our ancestors manners)


Originally posted by James the Lesser
To believe people had no morals or rules before christianity is going against ATS belief of denying ignorance.

You seem to be the ignorant one who refuses to accept historical facts

[edit on 8/25/2004 by s13guy]

[edit on 8/25/2004 by s13guy]



posted on Aug, 25 2004 @ 05:19 PM
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My grandfather said so, he also said that the same baby came from a woman who had never had sex, and that he could walk on water and had all kinds of other super powers.


For someone whose touting subjective material, you really don't have the right to ask others to give credible, historical and proven evidence.

Deep



posted on Aug, 25 2004 @ 05:22 PM
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I apologize to all board members for my moronic posting that is contributing nothing. I will discontinue all and any forms of jest on my part.

/sarcasm



[edit on 8/25/2004 by s13guy]



posted on Aug, 25 2004 @ 07:24 PM
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Originally posted by s13guy

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Uh, jesus was born smiling? Prove it.

My grandfather said so, he also said that the same baby came from a woman who had never had sex, and that he could walk on water and had all kinds of other super powers.


Originally posted by James the Lesser
I am sure the Greeks went out and did that. Prove it.

why dont you disprove it with something credible


Originally posted by James the Lesser
I am sure before christianity came along people behaved like animals. Prove it.

As I am sure before there were civlizations, there were civilized people. (btw a religion wasnt the thing to teach our ancestors manners)


Originally posted by James the Lesser
To believe people had no morals or rules before christianity is going against ATS belief of denying ignorance.

You seem to be the ignorant one who refuses to accept historical facts

[edit on 8/25/2004 by s13guy]

[edit on 8/25/2004 by s13guy]


Your grandaddy told you? My grandaddy told me the jews are everywhere and came from Mars.

It is not me that needs to disprove anything. You state something so you need to prove it. I swear, that is actually a good arguement amongst the christians. "Well, instead of us proving god, why don't you disprove it? Well, you can't, so we right, even though we have no proof." Same reason I can follow and teach about the pebble people. Can you prove they don't exist? Well, guess that means they exist.

Civilizations started before chrstianity and jews. Sumarians. China. Japan. Egypt. Greece. The villages on Engfland, Scotland, and Ireland. They were civilized, they followed rules you say jews/christians made up. But they were about 5,000-20,000 years older.

What historical facts? I have never seen anything saying that says until 2,000 years ago everyone was an animal following no rules or morals. You have no proof of any of this because there is none. Instead of asking me to disprove it why don't you try to prove it?

Deny Ignorance.



posted on Aug, 25 2004 @ 09:45 PM
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Some people are really dense...



Originally posted by James the Lesser
Your grandaddy told you? My grandaddy told me the jews are everywhere and came from Mars.

I guess you still didnt detect the jestual hint even after I bluntly stated it.


Originally posted by James the Lesser
It is not me that needs to disprove anything. You state something so you need to prove it.

Tell me what i stated and quote me, i still am puzzled by which statement you are talking about.


Originally posted by James the Lesser
I swear, that is actually a good arguement amongst the christians. "Well, instead of us proving god, why don't you disprove it? Well, you can't, so we right, even though we have no proof." Same reason I can follow and teach about the pebble people. Can you prove they don't exist? Well, guess that means they exist.

Hmm, odd. I dont recall asking you to disprove a god. please quote the statement if i did ask you to.


Originally posted by James the Lesser
Civilizations started before chrstianity and jews. Sumarians. China. Japan. Egypt. Greece. The villages on Engfland, Scotland, and Ireland. They were civilized, they followed rules you say jews/christians made up. But they were about 5,000-20,000 years older.

Please quote me where I said the jews/christians made up the playground rules. I do not recall stating that at all.


Originally posted by James the Lesser
I was never told that raping and stealing was wrong. I just know it is wrong.

hmm, you sure you aren't Christian?


Originally posted by James the Lesser
What do you mean "nor would we speak so highly of our Judeo-Christian values."? Those rules are not christian in origin.

Please stop taking my posts out of context, quote the text where I said laws originate from Judeo-Christian values. Oh wait you can't, because I never said that.


Originally posted by James the Lesser
What historical facts? I have never seen anything saying that says until 2,000 years ago everyone was an animal following no rules or morals. You have no proof of any of this because there is none. Instead of asking me to disprove it why don't you try to prove it?

Ironically enough, you sound like a Christian (they deny evolution)
In humans, it is not only our genes that can predispose us to behave in particular ways. Our behaviour can also be controlled by beliefs and emotional reactions that are instilled in us, usually when we are young. Through the process of socialisation, our parents and others inculcate us with ways of behaving that become part of who we are, and influence our actions for the rest of our life.

Inculcated behaviours typically include moral codes and social norms that influence the way we deal with others. Norms differ between cultures, but they are likely to include beliefs that it is wrong to cheat and lie, to murder, to fail to return favours from friends, to ignore those in urgent need of help, and to commit adultery. And cultures usually include norms that support and authorise punishment of those who break norms. Commonly, these systems of norms are reinforced by religious beliefs

users.tpg.com.au...





Your argument holds no water, so you must argue by inventing/twisting statements that are generally considered ignorant.





Originally posted by James the Lesser
Deny Ignorance.

Deny Stupidity.

[edit on 8/25/2004 by s13guy]



posted on Aug, 25 2004 @ 10:44 PM
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Thomas Jefferson was one of the primary authors of the Constitution and he did indeed support a separation of church and state.


"Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man
and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or
his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach
actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign
reverence that act of the whole American people which declared
that their Legislature should "make no law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and
State." --Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802.


Also, for those who think the Judeo-Christian laws are the original basis for modern civilization, they were not.

Hammurabi (ca. 1792 - 1750 BC) united all of Mesopotamia under his forty-three year reign of Babylon. Although Hammurabi's Code is not the first code of laws (the first records date four centuries earlier), it is the best preserved legal document reflecting the social structure of Babylon during Hammurabi's rule.
It consists of 282 laws concerning a wide variety of societal issues and abuses. You can read them for yourselves at www.wsu.edu...

As a final thought, here is what Mr. Jefferson said about mankind's innate sense of right and wrong:

"I believe that justice is instinct and innate, that the moral sense is as much a part of our constitution as that of feeling, seeing, or hearing; as a wise Creator must have seen to be necessary in an animal destined to live in society." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1823.



posted on Aug, 26 2004 @ 08:49 PM
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In practice the separation is more theoretical than actual. In a truly separate society, we would not invoke the name of God on our currency, nor would we speak so highly of our Judeo-Christian values.


"Tell me what i stated and quote me, i still am puzzled by which statement you are talking about.
Please quote me where I said the jews/christians made up the playground rules. I do not recall stating that at all."
[edit on 8/24/2004 by s13guy]

You stated this in an earlier post. And it looks as if the stuff you had about before christianity everyone followed no rules or morals was edited! Good way, I can't point it out because you deleted it.

"hmm, you sure you aren't Christian?
Ironically enough, you sound like a Christian (they deny evolution)"

Also, I am not christian, but Pebble Person. I created it with help of JamesG. We have two rules, common sense and no harming others unless they harm you. I support evolution, I believe in science, not myths.

"why dont you disprove it with something credible"

Again, not my job to disprove something, but your job to prove it.

"It is not common sense not to steal, rape etc.... these are values that are taught, we are not born with them. a lot of psychologists, its a known fact. I think you may be confusing Common sense with Conscious??"

Again, prove it! I see no links or facts stating that humans need to be taught that senseless slaughter and rape is wrong.

"In practice the separation is more theoretical than actual. In a truly separate society, we would not invoke the name of God on our currency, nor would we speak so highly of our Judeo-Christian values." "Tell me what i stated and quote me, i still am puzzled by which statement you are talking about. Please quote me where I said the jews/christians made up the playground rules. I do not recall stating that at all."
[edit on 8/24/2004 by s13guy]

Again, they are not christian or jewsih in origin! You say "I never said that jews.christians came up with them" but you did! Alot of it you deleted, but not this little saying. Guess you missed it. The rules were created thousands of years before the first jew or christian was born. I guess I proved my points, now prove yours.



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