Someone please tell me why traveling faster then the speed of light isnt possible in this scenerio..

Originally posted by libertytoall
Light could never travel faster then the speed of time itself.

Time doesn't have a speed.

Would you like to place a wager on this? Time is intimately linked to your velocity and location.

Originally posted by libertytoall
Would you like to place a wager on this?

edit on 8-9-2011 by libertytoall because: (no reason given)

Yes. Speed is the measure of spatial displacement over a unit of time. Saying time has speed does not make sense.

Originally posted by john_bmth

Originally posted by libertytoall
Would you like to place a wager on this?

edit on 8-9-2011 by libertytoall because: (no reason given)

Yes. Speed is the measure of spatial displacement over a unit of time. Saying time has speed does not make sense.

edit on 8-9-2011 by john_bmth because: (no reason given)

Yes but what's interesting is we are in all sense and purposes frozen in the "present state" according to black hole physics and relativity. As we reach an equilibrium with set distance between our solar system and the singularity of a black hole, we get locked in a present state. We can no longer move forward in reference to the black hole and we cannot move backwards out of the black hole, essentially leaving us in a locked state. What this would mean is time flows from the future, throgh our present, and into the past, giving us animated movement in our visible world. Without time flowing through us we would not exist. Time is like a wave when you reach equilibrium in a black hole.

Think of time like this. If you stick your hand out of the window of your car when you're parked you feel nothing. When you apply motion (drive 55mph) all of a sudden a new force can be felt. The force is real and is measurable.

Wow...so much great information. Thank you all so much.

So some of you are saying due to time dialation, the protons are are still only at 99.999 % even if the collider is spinning. I can see that now.

I geuss my analogy would be if the daytona speedway was rotating at 200mph and the race cars where were going around the track at another 200mph...relative to us they are going 400mph, but the drivers are only experianceing 200 mph due to time dialation? The spinning of the track creates a new space/time...and in that space/time they are only going 200. But If i stood next to the track with a radar gun It would tell me they were going 400....right?

But if one of them cars flew off this rotating race track and crashed it would be going a true 400 mph right once it left the track right?

Can the same be said if the hardon collider while rotating at 0.02% spd/light, and the inside proton going 99.99%...if the collider then released a single proton...and a stationary insturment outside the collider recorded the speed...wouldnt it then be the sum of the 2 velocity's...(at least for a very short time) breaking the speed of light.

If I am beating a dead horse here I appologise.

Wow...I am definitely not smart enough for this thread!

I did well in university physics, but that was SO long ago and I can't quite remember the formulas....

This thread did make me think of a quote from the movie UHF:

"Stanley Spadowski: George, you know I was wondering, like if you were traveling through outer space, I mean like you're going real fast, like the speed of light, you know... hoooohhhhh... and all of a sudden you started screaming... aaaahhhhh aaaaahhhhh... Do you think your brain would blow up? "

Originally posted by KINGKONG
Wow...so much great information. Thank you all so much.

You're welcome, but I think you missed the more important part of my answer, which is that you CANNOT use analogies like this when speeds are relativistic (meaning some significant portion of the speed of light):

I geuss my analogy would be if the daytona speedway was rotating at 200mph and the race cars where were going around the track at another 200mph...relative to us they are going 400mph, but the drivers are only experianceing 200 mph due to time dialation? The spinning of the track creates a new space/time...and in that space/time they are only going 200. But If i stood next to the track with a radar gun It would tell me they were going 400....right?

But if one of them cars flew off this rotating race track and crashed it would be going a true 400 mph right once it left the track right?

Yes it works on the racetrack because speeds aren't relativistic. If you wanted to get ultra picky, you could point out that there'[s actually a small discrepancy such that it's not exactly 400mph due to relativity, but at 400 mph, the relativity effects are so insignificant you'd have difficulty measuring it. We actually did measure the discrepancy at about 500 mph (I don't recall the exact speed) but it was for a long period of time, using airplanes, in an experiment which tested and confirmed relativistic effects:

Hafele–Keating experiment

A time gain of 39 ± 2 ns was observed, compared to a relativistic prediction of 39,8 ns.

You won't measure a discrepancy of nanoseconds using a regular radar gun or stopwatch, the racetrack experiment isn't accurate enough using that measuring equipment. But if you had more accurate equipment, you could in fact determine that 200mph plus 200mph doesn't really equal 400mph exactly, even in that example. The only reason you'd measure 400mph is due to lack of sufficient accuracy in your equipment, but it's not really 400 mph, it's an infinitesmal fraction off of that.

Can the same be said if the hardon collider while rotating at 0.02% spd/light, and the inside proton going 99.99%...if the collider then released a single proton...and a stationary insturment outside the collider recorded the speed...wouldnt it then be the sum of the 2 velocity's...(at least for a very short time) breaking the speed of light.

If I am beating a dead horse here I appologise.

With the collider, the relativistic effect you found hard to measure at 400mph becomes much more significant. Time can slow down so much that a century can pass by in one reference frame (such as the Earth) while only a few seconds passes by in another reference frame (for the proton traveling at almost the speed of light). That's the part your example doesn't account for.

Relativity effects apply to both the racetrack and the collider example, the main difference is that relativistic effects are practically negligible at the racetrack, but not at the collider.

See where I am trying to possibly go with all this has to do with black holes. The closer you get to a black hole the faster you go, until every atom in your of your body is moving at the speed of light and then supposly torn apart and crunched into a sigularity.

My unedacated opinion is matter speeds up in a black hole and possibly exceeds the speed of light...its when it exceeds the speed of light that it seems to disapear creating what looks like a black hole when in reality the matter is still there but after the speed of light is reached it enters a forth dimension or a different dimension where time does not exist.

I have a hard time understanding there is a cosmic speed limit.

And if time slows the faster you go until the speed of light...what happen when you break this barrier? Does time cease to exist, go backwards??? I mean i know nobody can know for sure....but just love hearing others opinion.

But the first step was to even create a plausible scenerio where that ANNOYING speed limit is broke.

Again, its all an uneduacated idea (as im sure you hardcore physics hotshots could tell) and all pure speculation.

Arbitrageur.....I made this post before I was able to read your reply....My daughter is bouncing off the walls so ill read it and reply in a bit when it quits down, but thank you for all your input. Again I really appricate it.

reply to post by KINGKONG
Interesting question. Some physicists think they have the answers, about what goes on inside a black hole, but I am not sure they do, and anyway, they can't prove it so the question is not one which will be answered with any kind of proof in the foreseeable future.

The problem is, even if we send a probe inside a black hole to measure what's going on, we haven't been able to figure out how to transmit the information outside. It's possible that the laws of physics as we know them outside the black hole don't apply inside the black hole, and due to our inability to observe the interior, we aren't sure what is going on in there. Personally I prefer to say I don't know.

But the event horizon of the black hole is observable, and an interesting thing happens at the event horizon:

www.dummies.com...

Black hole event horizons: An extra-slow version of slow motion

One other case where time slows down, this time in general relativity, involves black holes. Recall that a black hole bends space-time itself, to the point where even light can’t escape. This bending of space-time means that as you approach a black hole, time will slow down for you relative to the outside world.

If you were approaching the black hole and your best friend Dean was far away watching (and could somehow watch “instantly,” without worrying about the time lag from light speed), Dean would see you approach the black hole, slow down and eventually come to rest to hover outside of it. Through the window of your spaceship, Dean would see you sitting absolutely still.

So to an outside observer, you'd appear completely motionless, even though you'd still feel yourself falling into the black hole. It's one of the more interesting black hole effects which could be observed because it's not inside the black hole. Time in a spaceship entering an event horizon slows down so much, it almost appears to stop to an outside observer.

Lastly, I think black holes are something I'd rather stay away from. Whatever goes on inside them, it can't be good for humans.

Originally posted by liberty to all
Yes but what's interesting is we are in all sense and purposes frozen in the "present state" according to black hole physics and relativity. As we reach an equilibrium with set distance between our solar system and the singularity of a black hole, we get locked in a present state. We can no longer move forward in reference to the black hole and we cannot move backwards out of the black hole, essentially leaving us in a locked state. What this would mean is time flows from the future, through our present, and into the past, giving us animated movement in our visible world. Without time flowing through us we would not exist. Time is like a wave when you reach equilibrium in a black hole.

Think of time like this. If you stick your hand out of the window of your car when you're parked you feel nothing. When you apply motion (drive 55mph) all of a sudden a new force can be felt. The force is real and is measurable.[edit by]edit on 8-9-2011 by liberty to all because: (no reason given)[/edit by]

This is only theory, to say a equilibrium has been reached. in Blackhole does not work in my view, it might appear that this has occurred but it has not.
They try and say that every thing has stopped dead upon entering a black hole., but it has not stopped. Even the Hawking Radiation would serve to contradict this, if Hawking Radiation were to be.
A Black Hole is not a True Singularity in that it is multiple, there is only one True Singularity, and it neither stops as it seems upon reaching a critical mass it can not contain it self.
The instant before a Bang there would appear to be nothing within the Nothing of the Universe, " Let There Be Light " Bang.

As for the speed of light to me, there seems to be a Matrix the light particle is moving within.
As an example Light does not move in water at same speed as it does in space, air.
And Gravity can not effect the speed of light but can bend, destort it, and since distance is time it would appear to effect the speed of the light.
But if it bent the space also, then what.
The one Astro physics guy, is theorizing that the speed of light has not always been constant, over time since Bang.

Originally posted by googolplex

Originally posted by liberty to all
Yes but what's interesting is we are in all sense and purposes frozen in the "present state" according to black hole physics and relativity. As we reach an equilibrium with set distance between our solar system and the singularity of a black hole, we get locked in a present state. We can no longer move forward in reference to the black hole and we cannot move backwards out of the black hole, essentially leaving us in a locked state. What this would mean is time flows from the future, through our present, and into the past, giving us animated movement in our visible world. Without time flowing through us we would not exist. Time is like a wave when you reach equilibrium in a black hole.

Think of time like this. If you stick your hand out of the window of your car when you're parked you feel nothing. When you apply motion (drive 55mph) all of a sudden a new force can be felt. The force is real and is measurable.[edit by]edit on 8-9-2011 by liberty to all because: (no reason given)[/edit by]

This is only theory, to say a equilibrium has been reached. in Blackhole does not work in my view, it might appear that this has occurred but it has not.

I understand what you're saying but there must be some reason quantum mechanics and relativity both show infinity rather then an end with a singularity. When math calculations are presented, quantum mechanics shows 2 infinities as the result. Relativity shows one. Maybe we are frozen in time within our universe but the universe itself is traveling at the speed of light for infinity.

They try and say that every thing has stopped dead upon entering a black hole., but it has not stopped. Even the Hawking Radiation would serve to contradict this, if Hawking Radiation were to be.

I don't believe we are stopped but I believe our entire universe is traveling at the speed of light through a black hole. This would make our universe stopped even though we truly aren't. Two dimensions of time?

A Black Hole is not a True Singularity in that it is multiple, there is only one True Singularity, and it neither stops as it seems upon reaching a critical mass it can not contain it self.

I'm not sure what you mean by this but I'm curious.

The instant before a Bang there would appear to be nothing within the Nothing of the Universe, " Let There Be Light " Bang.

Time would still have to exist no matter how observable it is.

As for the speed of light to me, there seems to be a Matrix the light particle is moving within.
As an example Light does not move in water at same speed as it does in space, air.
And Gravity can not effect the speed of light but can bend, destort it, and since distance is time it would appear to effect the speed of the light. But if it bent the space also, then what.

I like how you think. The universe must have some kind of ether, plasma, or something inside the vacuum. Plasma would make sense if we are truly near a balck holes accretian disc.(shown as our sun)

Technically, if we are in a black hole and space is stretched out, the farther out you go in the universe, the more you should accelerate. What this means is light we see from 13 billion years ago at the edge of our universe might in travel only be a couple billion light years away. Maybe even less.. We don't know the stretch and curvature of space yet, but I think it's predictable using phi. Phi is the foundation of all of creation as everything that has any form follows this golden rule. This also happens most likely due to the gravitational rotation from a black hole as well as our velocity moving at the speed of light.

The one Astro physics guy, is theorizing that the speed of light has not always been constant, over time since Bang.

edit on 8-9-2011 by googolplex because: (no reason given)

That is possible and I've also heard during the great expansion the universe could have been moving faster then the speed of light of today.

reply to post by liberty to all


"I understand what you're saying but there must be some reason quantum mechanics and relativity both show infinity rather then an end with a singularity. When math calculations are presented, quantum mechanics shows 2 infinities as the result. Relativity shows one. Maybe we are frozen in time within our universe but the universe itself is traveling at the speed of light for infinity."



I'm not sure what you are saying, but it seems now that there is a leaning toward the Multiverse, with a infinite number of Bangs occurring. This leaves a infinity, but also that anything that could happen,


Has happened if not in this Universes, but in one of the other infinite Universes.
This is all in line with String Theory.

No one seems to be able to see past the Bang,

Do you think it is possible to be born into infinity?

Cryptonomicon - Wrong. There are No Scientific Facts. None.

halfmask - Interesting. I think your getting close, at least you seem to have your mind open but remember there are no facts and all is relative.

libertytoall - Who said light or time has a speed limit?

I don't believe Light has a constant velocity or that there is a cap on it's speed. I don't believe there are any facts, only theories. Nothing has ever been proven. Nothing can ever be proven. Period. I challenge anyone to prove me different on this which of course is impossible.

Now that's said, I know we only use those theories and models to help understand what we observe, to bring some sense of reason to it all. I believe we only are given as a species to understand that which is applicable for us to know at the time. One day we will travel faster than light, light itself will break this fairy tale limit as will humans to reach other stars or dimensions. One day we will see solid matter as fluid as water and manipulate it so. At the quantum level none of this is impossible, we just don't understand the mechanics of it yet. Even then we won't have any facts and our working theories will again change in light of new information. One day we will laugh at the very notion of Eisenstein relativity and understand the larger picture of how Newtonian, Eisenstein, Quantum physics and metaphysics are all actually rolled into one, part of the same system with "laws" that both govern and cancel out other "laws" and in fact are now seeing some of this. I believe there is a much larger picture here and trying to answer questions like the op's using one of these systems or another is going to fail every time because we really don't understand anything yet at all, most of all how they relate to each other. That's our big mistake. Doesn't mean it's impossible.

The doctor says it's time for my nap now and to stop upsetting the nice people.

reply to post by KINGKONG


light is made up of energy, everything is made up of energy. there are different foms of energy can be read here:

www.nmsea.org...

Electromagnetic Energy (light): Consider the energy transmitted to the Earth from the Sun by light (or by any source of light). Light, which is also called "electro-magnetic radiation". Why the fancy term? Because light really can be thought of as oscillating, coupled electric and magnetic fields that travel freely through space (without there having to be charged particles of some kind around). It turns out that light may also be thought of as little packets of energy called photons (that is, as particles, instead of waves). The word "photon" derives from the word "photo", which means "light". Photons are created when electrons jump to lower energy levels in atoms, and absorbed when electrons jump to higher levels. Photons are also created when a charged particle, such as an electron or proton, is accelerated, as for example happens in a radio transmitter antenna. But because light can also be described as waves, in addition to being a packet of energy, each photon also has a specific frequency and wavelength associated with it, which depends on how much energy the photon has (because of this weird duality - waves and particles at the same time - people sometimes call particles like photons "wavicles"). The lower the energy, the longer the wavelength and lower the frequency, and vice versa. The reason that sunlight can hurt your skin or your eyes is because it contains "ultraviolet light", which consists of high energy photons. These photons have short wavelength and high frequency, and pack enough energy in each photon to cause physical damage to your skin if they get past the outer layer of skin or the lens in your eye. Radio waves, and the radiant heat you feel at a distance from a campfire, for example, are also forms of electro-magnetic radiation, or light, except that they consist of low energy photons (long wavelength and high frequencies - in the infrared band and lower) that your eyes can't perceive. This was a great discovery of the nineteenth century - that radio waves, x-rays, and gamma-rays, are just forms of light, and that light is electro-magnetic waves

light is the LIGHTest form of energy hence the fastest so far. BUT this is where the whole "god particle" comes in, the anti-matter..which has been in the works for along time now at CERN.

reply to post by libertytoall


When you stick your hand out of a car window, the forces you feel are not time. Time is not a force.

It most certainly is a force that binds everything to a specific moment and place. Time is the organizer of all things. Everything is subjected to time and without it nothing could exist.

This is very interesting, the light thing.
Ok your on the train traveling at speed of light, you take your flashlight and point it in front of you direction of travel.
Now the light from the flashlight does not travel at twice the speed of light it only travel at 1 speed of light.
Now you look at the flashlight, there are no light particles coming out of the end of the flashlight.
This is all speculation, but what is going on, does the flashlight blow up in your hand, could you see anything.
Looking behind you you would be seeing the past, but would the past you see be going backward.

What would happen if you looked sideways while Traveling at speed of Light, if you could see anything, would it only be things real far away and would you have to turn your head real fast to see anything from the side.

It would seem at the speed of light you would not be able to see anything, and what would happen if you slow down just a tiny bit could you see the light particles slowly coming out of the flash light.

One other thing this was mentioned prior, they did a test on a electrical wire and tracked one single electron moving down the wire.
The results were that even though millions ( I forget ) possibly billions of electrons spewing out of the end of the wire, the tracked electron had only move several inches thru the wire,
Doesn't electricity move close to the speed of light>

It most certainly is a force that binds everything to a specific moment and place. Time is the organizer of all things. Everything is subjected to time and without it nothing could exist.[edit by]edit on 10-9-2011 by liberty to all because: (no reason given)