Mother dresses girl aged THREE as prostitute in Toddlers and Tiaras pageant

At the moment I have nothing further to say than what I clearly state in my opening Thread.

This has been misconstrued a few times in the Thread so just to be clear which can be gained easily just by reading my original post, the thrust basis of this OP is:

1. The affects of these sort of "Competitions" on the young and innocent, and who watches them. Specifically are we programming them or making a "norm" out of sexualizing Toddlers and children. What is the true affect on these children and those watching it making their world view.

2. Where does the responsibility lie? The parents, the broadcasters, and even ourselves as its part of our culture?

3. Why is there a very clear (as I pointed out) difference between the actions of those who are charged and judged as "paedophiles" by having images such as these, not allowed even of a less degree of sexual provocation, than theses "legal" films not photographs that we applaud, reward and watch, from Hollywood/media why the double standards. In fact is not the show borderline or actually "illegal" it seems only the setting and "TV" label makes it not.

Now I have to say on my many years on ATS I don’t think I have read so many quite strong and well argued points. I must say some of the responses have made me feel I opened a can of worms, and that certainly was not the reason for the OP, though I suppose by proxy of the content I should have expected it.

The one thing that has struck me is that even some of those who are on the sides of "protecting" the child etc and say this is wrong, and those who say its fine for a 3 year old to be slutted up by her mum, are imho missing the one point, both sides.

It seems to be "the parents choice" "do with your children" etc..... both those who practise paedophilia, other abusive people in society all do one thing in relation to their "prey", they depersonalise that internally, the child is "objectified".

Seen as a possession, something we or the parents or the abuser "owns" like a toy for their own pleasure or control.

Now which ever side of the argument you find yourself on, to take this stance is where the problem is.

I think what I am trying to explore and say is that, I have over much thought on this come to the conclusion that the real "root" of this problem is here, in this position on both sides.

What about the choice of the child?
Now this brings obviously a very deep and hard to navigate subject, when would a "child" "teenager" "adult" be old enough to make the decision to dress and act like this with no external clues from parents etc. Obviously this brings in "capability" to make an "informed" choice.

Until the age is reached when a person can make this decision, we in society pass over these "informed" and "capable" choices on life to the caregivers.

This leads me to a story. In the voluntary work I did when younger I made a friend who is now Professor of Psychology, he has worked with some of the most "evil" people in Britain in the penal/Mental Health system, having worked and interviewed alone with such like as the "Yorkshire Ripper" and such like.

He said to me a few years in conversation that he could never openly say this as he would loose his job, would be ridiculed, but had seen the affects of early parenting on those pre dispossessed to these issues, all of the really evil sickos ALWAYS had abuse in their own childhood.

He stated that he believed the Nazi's were half right in part of their "plan" (though vehemently decrying the rest) which was to do with parenting etc. He said they had planned to eventually have "permits" for people to have children, like a "license". Now obviously the requirements for a license from the Nazis would be full of evil pre requisites, however if this was done in the opposite way he thought there would be much merit, lowered crime, not so many mass murders etc.

We laughed it is only a "thought experiment" whilst we did some walking in the mountains, I myself though thinking back to that day can see with this issue where maybe this has merit.

You need a license for a car, gun, fishing rod, explosives, etc all because they can harm others, but no one checks the ability of the parents to "protect" their and other children.

Now I am so far away from wanting any more government inclusion, regulations etc, the drawbacks would be probably worse than any benefits, but it is an important point imho, and just wanted to bring it here as the proponent really knows his stuff on this, and it is not openly discussed.

I must also say in my Licensing dream some of the parents who have posted on here, would not be getting there next years paperwork!!!

I really again want to thank all the contributors you have given me and many others much food for thought, and I will re read the thread again later to firm up. I hope at least some contacted TLC all of me and mine have, and also the actual companies who advertise telling them why we are boycotting their products?

Elf

Children are not property, they are people. Their guardians are both the parents and society, with varying responsibilities.

That said, I do believe there are lots of overprotective people when it comes to children and anything remotely sexual. This tv show is far from actual child abuse or child porn IMHO, and in this case, "dont watch it if it bothers you" is all I can say about it.

Originally posted by chrissiel123
reply to post by dragonseeker

 

i know. i feel for my two girls, pray they never find out how bad the world can be firsthand.

on a positive note - love your sig. Gunslinger! gave you a star for that.

Thanks "the Dark Tower" book series is my favorite. hoping they finally do the movie(it fell through earlier this year; ron howard was gonna direct).

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
You make an excellent advertisement for Hillary's "It Takes A Village", promoting socialism and a one world govt, statism.

No, children are not the property of society. Parents are always the guardian of their children. Parents are the representatives of our Father/Mother God, not the State.

Children are the ''property'' of the society which they are born into. It is up to the society to make sure that the children are brought up in the way that will best suit the child. Parents are only given automatic custody out of convenience, but are under strict obligations to raise their children in accordance with the rules which society set.

If something is deemed harmful to the emotional or physical well-being of the child, then the authorities need to step in and remove the child from its harmful environment.

Parents do not own their children. Children are human beings, not a commodity.

Any two losers can have sex and produce a child, yet will be totally unqualified and unsuitable people to guide their child in the most important, formative years of that child's existence.

ATS is filled with extreme libertarians who can't see how harmful or ridiculous the ideology is in practice. People bang on and on about ''Mah raghts'' and the ''gubmint'', yet don't seem to realise the real-world implications that these unrestricted ''rights'' ( codeword for ''things I personally believe in'' ) would have.

The illogic of people who hold this position is typified by the: ''the government should stay out of how I bring up my child'' statement. So, according to them, parents should be free to rape, beat and emotionally abuse their children with impunity.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
Maybe Society really is failing the children however, because Society is allowing Hollywood to set the moral standard.

If Hollywood is setting the moral standards for how a child is raised, then that is solely the parents' fault.

If any parent is using Hollyweird as guidance for bringing up their child, then they have no business to even be an active influence in their child's upbringing.

''Parents'', such as those who are exploiting their 2 and 3 year-old children by entering them into televised beauty pageants, need to have their children removed from their custody - and pronto.

ive seen the adverts for these shows but never watched them. what kind of parents do this to there kids, bloody sick

How on earth can someone even try to justify a show like this. As far as I am concerned this is a type of child exploitation and a form of child porn. I know one channel that I will no longer be watching and any sponsor of this program I will boycott because crap like this is disgusting. And just think that any child molester can watch this program and have their fantasy fulfilled….disgusting

Wow ..lets exploit and sexualise 3 year old children and day its ok and they like it ?

How the hell does a 3 year old know they are being dressed up as a prostitue and paraded for anyone to see by their caring, nurturing loving parents ?

No wonder we have so many screwed up young people who have to idea of whats right or wrong when they have role models who exploit their children for their own rewards.

Innocent is what we are at the age of 3, the world is a mystery to us and we are influenced only by what our parents teach us. I'm sure most of us here have memories they love of being a child and playing imaginative games of dressup or fighting imaginative bad guys either by themselves or with their friends

For those that don;t have these memories..I really wish you did and hope you allow your kids to have this joy if and when they come along.

Fairies, Batman, Princess, Models, Captain America, Dolls...whatever you want to pretend to be, or play with, it doesnt matter as its imagination, its safe to go there and explore yourself, its normal !

What is not normal is little 3 year old girls dressing up as prostitutes, or wearing sexy clothes, or doing adult dances with adult hair and makeup and being perved at by god knows who and being judged by how good they are at it.

Its different to play in a safe environment of their imagination or with their friends to being a living "Made Up Doll" by their mummy.

Wow..this truely is a bloody sick world and I can't wait to move onto something better.

This show is f#$%#d, I saw an episode about a week or two ago and it was absolutely disgusting, my wife and I couldn't stop watching because we were stunned in disbelief. I can't believe(like the OP said) that this is even allowed to happen, be on TV, and worst of all that its supported and loved by people out there, IMO people who can watch this show and like it or think its okay are also f&#^$#d.

Throughout the entire episode I did not see one little girl who actually looked be enjoying what their moms were putting them through, they cried, kick, screamed and had breakdowns during the whole process with their "loving" mothers responding with stuff like, "shut it, your going to ruin your makeup" or, "girls who cry don't win" or this, "stop crying or your face is going to look like a zebra".

It was apparent to me after a short time watching that the mothers are ill in their minds, the whole thing is about the mom and how the mom feels, it has nothing to do with their daughters feelings or wants. They are trying to live through them by forcing their girls into a life of pagents from the age of 2, yes 2! These girls have no idea what theyre even doing at that age let alone choose or consent to doing such things, they are being taught that to be happy, respected, beautiful, popular and successful they have to wear a pound of makeup and look perfect in their fancy clothes, its so sad.

Auughh I could go on and on, its stuff like this that reminds how f#&$#@d the world really is..

Just my 2 cents(rant) lol

I have to wonder, why is it this specific incident that bothers people? Is it because we know specifically this child is dressing like an actress that portrayed a prostitute? Why would this set this little girl apart to be concidered disgusting when every one of the girls on this show dress like hookers? If you are going to single out one child and one parent then why not the whole institution that promotes this kind of crap. There isn't a child on that show that is not subjected to this kind of gross portrayal by their parents and the network. These poor children do this because they think they look pretty and that they're making their parents proud, yet every one of them ends up looking like they belong on a corner... the whole franchise is disgusting in my opinion!

Originally posted by sith9157
This is not a knock at you OP, but the only people that see them dressed as anything but little girls in costumes, is a pedophile.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

That's as ridiculous as saying ''the only people that see them dressed as just little girls in costumes, are paedophiles''.

Your ''logic'' is awry on this one. Sly ad hominems are not only unconstructive to genuine debate, but are frequently used to skirt around dealing with issues which may make the accuser feel uncomfortable.

Having said that, I don't think the ''sexualisation'' aspect to this story is of that much concern, although American society does seem to have a creepy mainstream attitude to the objectification of young children - but that is probably more a confused state which has formed from their sexually repressed society.

The problem with the costume is how utterly ridiculous the poor girl looked in it, completely oblivious to the humiliation she was suffering. A girl of that age probably wouldn't be able to tell that people were laughing at her, rather than with her.

The main issue with this story is the fact that the ''parents'' are exploiting their young child for personal reward.

reply to post by mutatismutandis


I think you have a valid point.

This though seems to have missed by yourselves and other posters on this thread.

The OP is about the show in question the series and children this is being done to. I did use the most extreme and shocking incident from the entire show to highlight the issue, but in the opening OP it is clearly discussed as a Hollywood/Media carte blanche issue the sexualization and abuse of children.

Like with any subject/issue one part/case of it needs to be highlighted and discussed to bring the rest of the issue into focus.

Kind Regards,

Elf

Originally posted by sith9157
This is not a knock at you OP, but the only people that see them dressed as anything but little girls in costumes, is a pedophile.

Oh I see a little innocent girl well a toddler a baby really dressed as a prostitute, told to smile for the audience and making poses like an adult.

I see a baby/child who is only just forming language, has no idea of a separate identity, is very very suggestible and unable to make informed decisions, being used like an commodity by her parents, disney and society at large, whilst she is totally unaware of what the insinuations are.

That why it made me cry,

Not sexually excited.

And I think you will find by looking at the majority of the posts on here that in fact the people who see the dangers don't see a personal satisfaction aspect to it, but discust and anger, and even a lowering of the belief of the "Mothers Love" for her child.

Kind Regards,

Elf

If you use your Parental Controls on your receiver to block TLC, the channel that is putting this show out, you are effecting EVERY show on TLC and therefore the ad revenue of the entire channel.

Block TLC from your receiver. Once TLC starts getting the message that this one show is effecting their entire income, the show will be cancelled.

Boycott TLC, Block TLC from your receivers. Tell them WHY you are blocking them. Encourage other people you know to block TLC.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


This is to whom we all aspire:

Woman Dies After Injecting Hot Beef Fat Into her Face

Off the news today.

CJ

reply to post by mutatismutandis


Trust me, the whole idea of children's beauty contests bother me, not just this incident. Same with Kate plus 8. I've always thought that exploiting children for financial gain is wrong. But this show takes it to a level even my cynical mind didn't think of. It's simply aweful to me. But who am i? No one.

Originally posted by Sevensight
You need to hurry up and explain to the OP of this thread that they got their topic all wrong and wrote their opening post completely wrong. Why did you not tell them you were changing the topic for them on the first page?

Normally I wouldn't respond to a member who has since be banned, as you do not have the ability to reply, but seeing as I don't care too much for your uppity attitude, I have no qualms about making an exception to my normal conduct on this occasion.

There was no change to the topic. This is how threads and non-formal debates work. It's like a tree with many branches, and the branch I am focusing on is still healthily and firmly attached to the trunk - in fact, it has just sprouted some more leaves in the last couple of days !

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
This is to whom we all aspire:

Woman Dies After Injecting Hot Beef Fat Into her Face

Off the news today.

At least she did that to her herself, and not a young child.

Still, I can't help but feel sorry for her - as daft as her behaviour apparently was - because it sounds as though she must have had an unhealthy fixation with plastic surgery and appearing more youthful looking.

Originally posted by mutatismutandis
I have to wonder, why is it this specific incident that bothers people? Is it because we know specifically this child is dressing like an actress that portrayed a prostitute? Why would this set this little girl apart to be concidered disgusting when every one of the girls on this show dress like hookers? If you are going to single out one child and one parent then why not the whole institution that promotes this kind of crap. There isn't a child on that show that is not subjected to this kind of gross portrayal by their parents and the network. These poor children do this because they think they look pretty and that they're making their parents proud, yet every one of them ends up looking like they belong on a corner... the whole franchise is disgusting in my opinion!

hey, every cause needs a poster child.
Who cares which child it is that finally tips a person into becoming more vocal< so long as it happens.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf


He stated that he believed the Nazi's were half right in part of their "plan" (though vehemently decrying the rest) which was to do with parenting etc. He said they had planned to eventually have "permits" for people to have children, like a "license". Now obviously the requirements for a license from the Nazis would be full of evil pre requisites, however if this was done in the opposite way he thought there would be much merit, lowered crime, not so many mass murders etc.

The real reason the Nazis wanted to make people get a license was in insure they only had Teutonic (Aryan) babies because they wanted to curb, not the German population, but the Jewish and what they considered undesirable populations. They borrowed their plan from the writings of such venerable Supreme Court justices such as Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. and the ever popular Margaret Sanger of Planned Parenthood.

If you read about the history of Eugenics and Carrie Buck vs. The State of Virginia, you might understand that licensing people to have children in Germany was to make sure they only had German babies. Did you ever hear of Hitler's Children? Those were babies born to German officers and women, sometimes teen girls, and that Hitler orchestrated the "weddings" and kept these children hidden away in big houses because he did not want England or the United States to know this. It was not to prevent mass murders nor was it to lower crime.

This was all exposed during the Nuremburg Trials. The whole mentality of the Nazis was to make a pure race of people.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
This is to whom we all aspire:

Woman Dies After Injecting Hot Beef Fat Into her Face

Off the news today.

At least she did that to her herself, and not a young child.

Still, I can't help but feel sorry for her - as daft as her behaviour apparently was - because it sounds as though she must have had an unhealthy fixation with plastic surgery and appearing more youthful looking.

Geesh, just when I thought people were supposed to be getting smarter up the "evolutionary" climb.Really? Hot beef? Did she buy it at Quiznos and said to herself "I have a great idea of what to do with this hot beef."