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Why Eurozone should become should become United States of Europe, by David Cameron

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posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 09:56 AM
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Originally posted by Swanfilters

The act of subverting the power of parliament through allowing foreign bodies and foreign parliaments to control legal matters in the UK is TREASON. Those who allowed these crimes to take place are TRAITORS. You are a nonsense.


That's a tad simplistic. On that basis it would be a treason to sign up with the UN, NATO, ECHR and the Red Cross as well.

The laws you object to were enacted by using the legitimate powers of Parliament.
edit on 7-9-2011 by timeless test because: typo...




posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 09:59 AM
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reply to post by timeless test
 



If treaties are to be rewritten that will have to be done by the agreement of all parties and Cameron has made it clear what price he will want for any changes.


I wish I had the faith in Cameron you do.. but sadly I don't as I don't believe he acts in the best interests of the British people.

On your other point.. As off topic as it is.. I believe we should either be in the EU alongside France and Germany or out as I honestly believe we cause them and us more problems the way it is now. (But then again I don't think 3 ways ever work that well
)

As an aside I have spent many years implementing EU directives across the whole of the EU usually this involved working with the Commission and national bodies.. to say the system is broken is a bit of an understatement.
edit on 7/9/11 by thoughtsfull because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by timeless test

Originally posted by Swanfilters

The act of subverting the power of parliament through allowing foreign bodies and foreign parliaments to control legal matters in the UK is TREASON. Those who allowed these crimes to take place are TRAITORS. You are a nonsense.


That's a tad simplistic. On that basis it would be a treason to sign up with the UN, NATO, ECHR and the Red Cross as well.

The laws you object to were enacted passed by using the legitimate powers of Parliament.


I would rather we weren't tied down to the UN, NATO and most especially the ECHR. None of these organisations have brought the UK any good whatsoever. Thanks to the ECHR, for example, victims of crime have less rights than criminals.

The Red Cross is an aid agency, which should also be banished from the UK. My tax money should be spent on my country, and my country only.



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 10:03 AM
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reply to post by Swanfilters
 


Ouch. Posts like this make me cringe that I carry a British Passport. Sorry rest of the world and especially Germans for those sentiments!



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by RogerT
reply to post by Swanfilters
 


Ouch. Posts like this make me cringe that I carry a British Passport. Sorry rest of the world and especially Germans for those sentiments!


Then give it up. Nobody will miss you. Make sure you recycle it, though; otherwise our masters in Brussels will impose a fine on you for not submitting to their lies about climate change.

I'm not sorry, not even in the slightest. I hope my comments do offend the Germans, It wasn't even the start of it though. We could and should have left them to the mercy of the USSR and all the other countries their vile nation raped, burned and massacred.
edit on 7-9-2011 by Swanfilters because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 10:12 AM
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reply to post by EvanB
 


The EEC was a trade agreement as a precursor to "an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe" so the moving goal posts were always in the agreement. You may not like or approve of that and there's a fair case to argue that there was insufficient clarity or public understanding about ultimate aims but that's what was agreed.

The bit you are still missing, (deliberately I have to presume), is that when Cameron spoke yesterday about "further integration" he was referring to to those nations in the Eurozone, (which does not include the UK).

You are quite correct, he does not have a sovereign voice in the EU, (nor does any other national leader), that's why he, and all the others would have to negotiate any treaty changes. Cameron has made clear what he wants from them and the say the UK population would have in any changes
edit on 7-9-2011 by timeless test because: to identify "reply to"



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by thoughtsfull

to say the system is broken is a bit of an understatement.


There you go, I knew there'd be something we could agree about.



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 10:26 AM
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reply to post by timeless test
 


Im sorry but I do not trust him with this country one iota.

You may as much as you like but all i have witnessed over the years with every party in power is a selling of this nation to a european superstate that I do not want.

Each government has carried on the program of the previous

Cameron is no different.

This is why the 3 party system must go.



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 10:33 AM
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Originally posted by EvanB
This is why the 3 party system must go.


When I was a lad, (sorry), people used to complain about the two party system. Trouble is, if you don't trust Them it doesn't matter how many parties you have - They'll still be there somewhere.

Best bet is a one party system - at least you'll know where they are.
edit on 7-9-2011 by timeless test because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by timeless test

Originally posted by thoughtsfull

to say the system is broken is a bit of an understatement.


There you go, I knew there'd be something we could agree about.


I'm glad we can


In all honestly it drives me nuts as my job (and passion) is to fix what is broken..



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by Swanfilters

Originally posted by RogerT
reply to post by Swanfilters
 


Ouch. Posts like this make me cringe that I carry a British Passport. Sorry rest of the world and especially Germans for those sentiments!


Then give it up. Nobody will miss you. Make sure you recycle it, though; otherwise our masters in Brussels will impose a fine on you for not submitting to their lies about climate change.

I'm not sorry, not even in the slightest. I hope my comments do offend the Germans, It wasn't even the start of it though. We could and should have left them to the mercy of the USSR and all the other countries their vile nation raped, burned and massacred.
edit on 7-9-2011 by Swanfilters because: (no reason given)


You talk as if England did(do) not do those same things to other countries.



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by OwenGP185

Originally posted by Swanfilters

Originally posted by RogerT
reply to post by Swanfilters
 


Ouch. Posts like this make me cringe that I carry a British Passport. Sorry rest of the world and especially Germans for those sentiments!


Then give it up. Nobody will miss you. Make sure you recycle it, though; otherwise our masters in Brussels will impose a fine on you for not submitting to their lies about climate change.

I'm not sorry, not even in the slightest. I hope my comments do offend the Germans, It wasn't even the start of it though. We could and should have left them to the mercy of the USSR and all the other countries their vile nation raped, burned and massacred.
edit on 7-9-2011 by Swanfilters because: (no reason given)


You talk as if England did(do) not do those same things to other countries.


The common response from the brainwashed liberal. The empire was the greatest thing to happen to Earth. We brought culture, civilisation, technology and a common language to the world. The worlds most successful, stable nations in the 21st century were all British Colonies.



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 12:04 PM
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Originally posted by Swanfilters

Originally posted by OwenGP185

Originally posted by Swanfilters

Originally posted by RogerT
reply to post by Swanfilters
 


Ouch. Posts like this make me cringe that I carry a British Passport. Sorry rest of the world and especially Germans for those sentiments!


Then give it up. Nobody will miss you. Make sure you recycle it, though; otherwise our masters in Brussels will impose a fine on you for not submitting to their lies about climate change.

I'm not sorry, not even in the slightest. I hope my comments do offend the Germans, It wasn't even the start of it though. We could and should have left them to the mercy of the USSR and all the other countries their vile nation raped, burned and massacred.
edit on 7-9-2011 by Swanfilters because: (no reason given)


You talk as if England did(do) not do those same things to other countries.


The common response from the brainwashed liberal. The empire was the greatest thing to happen to Earth. We brought culture, civilisation, technology and a common language to the world. The worlds most successful, stable nations in the 21st century were all British Colonies.


I am not a liberal, I am a human and do not feel any need to sign myself up to an imaginary brand to know what I should and should not believe. That said I agree being in a British empire did actually keep a lot of nations stable however it was not perfect by any means, in fact it was all the things you are saying is important that was taken from those nations. Being proud of an Empire yet you are saying how bad it would be to become part of an EU empire is illogical. I sounds as though being an empire is good only as long as it’s to the other nations expense?

Not to mention you say they "brought culture", this poses a question. Have you ever complained about foreigners coming over here and replacing our culture? Maybe the whole world should speak English, follow Christianity but how dare they bring their foreign languages, religion and beliefs. Just remember that Hitler’s empire could have brought stability and wealth to many countries, yet rightfully we fought against it.



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 12:43 PM
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Originally posted by OwenGP185
I am not a liberal, I am a human and do not feel any need to sign myself up to an imaginary brand to know what I should and should not believe. That said I agree being in a British empire did actually keep a lot of nations stable however it was not perfect by any means, in fact it was all the things you are saying is important that was taken from those nations. Being proud of an Empire yet you are saying how bad it would be to become part of an EU empire is illogical. I sounds as though being an empire is good only as long as it’s to the other nations expense?


You absolutely cannot try and claim that being proud of the British Empire is the same as the EU. The EU is a foreign body, seeking to complete Hitler's ideals of a unified Europe under German control. They are totally distinct and different.

Is an empire good only at other peoples' expenses? Absolutely. It generated us great deals of money, gave us access to lucrative natural reserves like oil, coal, precious metals and stones and advanced our ideals of democracy.


Originally posted by OwenGP185
Not to mention you say they "brought culture", this poses a question. Have you ever complained about foreigners coming over here and replacing our culture? Maybe the whole world should speak English, follow Christianity but how dare they bring their foreign languages, religion and beliefs. Just remember that Hitler’s empire could have brought stability and wealth to many countries, yet rightfully we fought against it.


The Fourth Reich has bankrupted Greece, is close to bankrupting Portugal, Spain, Ireland and now Italy is on the rocks. Any nation that has taken on the Euro, is now suffering because of Germany.

But Owen, it didn't bring any of those things, it brought great misery and suffering, mass murder and cruelty. At least we had respect for our Colonials.



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 02:06 PM
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Originally posted by Swanfilters

Originally posted by OwenGP185
I am not a liberal, I am a human and do not feel any need to sign myself up to an imaginary brand to know what I should and should not believe. That said I agree being in a British empire did actually keep a lot of nations stable however it was not perfect by any means, in fact it was all the things you are saying is important that was taken from those nations. Being proud of an Empire yet you are saying how bad it would be to become part of an EU empire is illogical. I sounds as though being an empire is good only as long as it’s to the other nations expense?


You absolutely cannot try and claim that being proud of the British Empire is the same as the EU. The EU is a foreign body, seeking to complete Hitler's ideals of a unified Europe under German control. They are totally distinct and different.

Is an empire good only at other peoples' expenses? Absolutely. It generated us great deals of money, gave us access to lucrative natural reserves like oil, coal, precious metals and stones and advanced our ideals of democracy.


Originally posted by OwenGP185
Not to mention you say they "brought culture", this poses a question. Have you ever complained about foreigners coming over here and replacing our culture? Maybe the whole world should speak English, follow Christianity but how dare they bring their foreign languages, religion and beliefs. Just remember that Hitler’s empire could have brought stability and wealth to many countries, yet rightfully we fought against it.


The Fourth Reich has bankrupted Greece, is close to bankrupting Portugal, Spain, Ireland and now Italy is on the rocks. Any nation that has taken on the Euro, is now suffering because of Germany.

But Owen, it didn't bring any of those things, it brought great misery and suffering, mass murder and cruelty. At least we had respect for our Colonials.


I never said being proud of the British Empire means also having to be proud of the EU. What I am saying is they both are the same type of system where the home country benefits from other nations and controls the development. Hitler’s ideals were of an Empire built on the foundations of his extreme views where his country reaped of the rewards of others labour, land etc. The British Empire is very similar except you could say without the extreme religious/racial equality though that would be ignoring one of two things that I shouldn’t have to point out.

Unfortunately you look at the British Empire rather rosy eyed. It takes one search of something like "British Empire barbarism" to find many accounts natives mistreated. Empires fall for a reason, why did those people want to fight their way into independence if they were respected and as well of as you suggest. Granted it doesn’t exist if you don't look for it but there are no stars if you don’t look up at the sky.

Let’s say the people of those times had your view of why the Empire was good, would you say they would be treating natives respectfully or would they be looking down at them as easy pickings exploit?

The empire was run by the same banking families of today so that should say it all. Anyway I don’t mean to drag this thread off topic but I feel my reasons for not being proud of any empire is reason enough to disagree on the subject of the op.



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 02:06 PM
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*double post*
edit on 7-9-2011 by OwenGP185 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 02:38 PM
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Originally posted by EvanB

Well well well Mr Cameron

Now do we, the British people get a vote on this or are you going to steam roller us into a federal europe?

It seems this is going to happen whether we like it or not.

It is inevitable that the world amalgamates in larger economic blocks. When companies become bigger than countries then countries then its time to merge countries. If you don't then iceland,greece, ireland etc will happen to the rest of us whilst the bankers sit there and smile.



Over 80% of the British people actually want out of the EU altogether, however the politicos will not give us a referendum because they know what the answer would be and it would end their gravy train.

It's 49%. Do NOT exaggerate to make your point.


I want a referendum. I do not want to be in the EU but want to keep the trade aspect. I do not believe the scare stories that the talking heads propergate on the dangers of us leaving. They need us as much as we need them.

Dream on. There is no way in hell we will keep the trade if we pull out. It won't be instant but it would happen. It would be catastrophic for many British companies.


Signing us up to a federal superstate without our permission is an un paralelled act of treason akin to, no much worse than, gordan browns great gold bullion robbery.

If on a referendum the country votes to join then thats ok, but if they rail road us then they should all be burnt at the stake!

Ah, that's nice an reasoned. I suggest you take some medication and calm down.


www.dailymail.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)
edit on 7-9-2011 by EvanB because: (no reason given)

By no stretch of the imagination do I support Cameron politically but the lack of political foresight by the anti europeans needs confronting.



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by malcr

Originally posted by EvanB

Well well well Mr Cameron

Now do we, the British people get a vote on this or are you going to steam roller us into a federal europe?

It seems this is going to happen whether we like it or not.

It is inevitable that the world amalgamates in larger economic blocks. When companies become bigger than countries then countries then its time to merge countries. If you don't then iceland,greece, ireland etc will happen to the rest of us whilst the bankers sit there and smile.



Over 80% of the British people actually want out of the EU altogether, however the politicos will not give us a referendum because they know what the answer would be and it would end their gravy train.

It's 49%. Do NOT exaggerate to make your point.


I want a referendum. I do not want to be in the EU but want to keep the trade aspect. I do not believe the scare stories that the talking heads propergate on the dangers of us leaving. They need us as much as we need them.

Dream on. There is no way in hell we will keep the trade if we pull out. It won't be instant but it would happen. It would be catastrophic for many British companies.


Signing us up to a federal superstate without our permission is an un paralelled act of treason akin to, no much worse than, gordan browns great gold bullion robbery.

If on a referendum the country votes to join then thats ok, but if they rail road us then they should all be burnt at the stake!

Ah, that's nice an reasoned. I suggest you take some medication and calm down.


www.dailymail.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)
edit on 7-9-2011 by EvanB because: (no reason given)

By no stretch of the imagination do I support Cameron politically but the lack of political foresight by the anti europeans needs confronting.


Ok mr deluded person

From the same poll you quoted but blatantly left out the rest of it to suit your agenda:


Angus Reid poll, 6 December 2010: 48% of Britons would vote in favour of pulling out of the EU. A new Angus Reid poll shows that, in the event of a referendum on the UK's EU membership, 48% of Britons would vote in favour of leaving the EU and 27% would vote to stay in. The results also indicate that 42% of Lib Dem voters and 36% of Labour voters would now vote for the UK to pull out. The poll found that 80% would vote in favour of keeping the pound. that 80% would vote in favour of keeping the pound



There you go

Now go get an education to improve your grasp on facts and figures

Or be less selective when quoting them

We are not as stupid as you think


The no's still have it by a long way.
edit on 7-9-2011 by EvanB because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 03:53 PM
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reply to post by Swanfilters
 


The death penalty does not exist in the U.K at all.

I also cannot see this ever happening, in fact it concerns E.U countries within the eurozone.

Don't understand why people would think the tories are pro-europe, aren't they traditionally the anti-europe, small government, private enterprise party?



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 04:08 PM
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reply to post by doubleplusungood
 


I think all the parties are the same... not a lot between them really and in my opinion Cameron does seem like a Europhile rather than the tories themselves.. I get called a "little Englander" usually because I really do desire a vote on the EU question so we can finally put that one to bed and move forward.. this fence sitting does not benefit us or Europe.

As far as the Eurozone issues go.. deeper integration is the only path really open to them even though a growing number of people oppose that.. the problem is to achieve that integration existing treaties have to amended and as such any amendment should needs the ratification from all signatories (of which Britain is one)

The problem is the Eurosceptics see that as an opportunity to get a referendum.. Cameron promised one on the Lisbon treaty and now these changes present that opportunity however the goal posts are now set that we only get to referendum if any of the changes impact Britain only on the issue of sovereignty.

The promise now is as I understand one where he will now use those changes to bargain things back from the EU rather than use it to allow referendum.. the goal post moving gives an appearance that this is not a democratic process.. a sentiment that seems to be gaining traction across the whole of the EU.



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