Scientific Research on Solar System Brown Dwarf and Planet X.

a reply to: Mogget

Mogget, I am pretty sure you misunderstood what they were referring to. Otherwise why continue the discussion among them about the possibility on how to find a sub-stellar companion? Also, neither Alex, or Michele would have mentioned the need for the all sky information derived from pulsar timing which would give us a confirmation whether or not there is such a sub-stellar companion.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Plenty of examples exist. For example do you have any idea how many near Earth meteors we haven't been able to detect until they were right on top of us? Want a more specific example? The meteor that exploded over Russia on Feb 2013 and we did not detect.

You do realize that you are proving my point, don't you? All of those objects are very small, so they had to be very near to be seen. An object the size of a Brown Dwarf can be seen from very far away; 7 light years, in fact. If we can see a Brown Dwarf from 7 light years away, we should be able to see one from 100 astronomical units away!

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

You do realize that you are proving my point, don't you? All of those objects are very small, so they had to be very near to be seen. An object the size of a Brown Dwarf can be seen from very far away; 7 light years, in fact. If we can see a Brown Dwarf from 7 light years away, we should be able to see one from 100 astronomical units away!

That certainly does not prove your point, because even thou such meteors are smaller, they are much, much closer to us. Apparently you seem to think that having another unknown gas giant, or sub-stellar companion to our sun would mean that you should be able to see it like we can see Jupiter. This is not the case because in the case of a sub-stellar companion of about 2-3 Jupiter masses it could be at a distance from around +-27,000 of AU. If we use the constraints from WISE that NASA gave us. That would still put such a sub-stellar companion within the Solar System which extends to around 100,000 AU. We don't really know where exactly the Solar System ends, we have guestimates it's at around 100,000+- AU.

BTW, I noticed that you don't seem to understand that they are talking about 2 objects. One is the super Earth sized planet which would be at around 250 -300 AU, and then there is the sub-stellar companion/brown dwarf which would be at 27,000AU+-. They are talking about 2 different objects.

Anyways, Mogget, here is a picture of the diagram given by NASA of the constraints that WISE has on detecting a sub-stellar companion a few Jupiter masses.



The limit, as NASA has told us, should be at 27,0000AU, which still puts a possible sub-stellar companion to our sun a couple or so Jupiter masses within the Solar System which extends, as far as we know, to 100,000AU+-.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

That chart puts WISE's detection capability at about 0.8 Jupiter masses at 27,000 AU and 2.1 Jupiter masses at 100,000 AU.

originally posted by: nataylor
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

That chart puts WISE's detection capability at about 0.8 Jupiter masses at 27,000 AU and 2.1 Jupiter masses at 100,000 AU.

Yep, you are right about that one. Should have looked at the fine line. ;P It still puts it, if we go by the constraints that NASA says WISE has within the Solar System thou. lol

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

An object with 2.1 times the mass of Jupiter at a distance of 100,000 AU would gravitationally pull on Sedna (at its farthest distance from the Sun) over 5.5 million times less than the Sun does. An object 0.8 Jupiter masses at 27,000 AU would pull on Sedna over 1 million times less than the Sun does.

originally posted by: nataylor
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

An object with 2.1 times the mass of Jupiter at a distance of 100,000 AU would gravitationally pull on Sedna (at its farthest distance from the Sun) over 5.5 million times less than the Sun does. An object 0.8 Jupiter masses at 27,000 AU would pull on Sedna over 1 million times less than the Sun does.

We don't even know exactly what this object, or objects are. We don't even understand 96% of our universe. What we know is that there has to be these objects out there otherwise these inner Oort cloud objects wouldn't have these stable orbits, or the fact that they cluster so close to each other which would indicate a solid source as the cause for their fairly stable orbits. If their orbits weren't so clustered at around 0 degrees, and instead they were more random it would indicate the cause as being more likely a localized magnetic cloud, such as the one our Solar System is entering within 100 years.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
We don't even know exactly what this object, or objects are. We don't even understand 96% of our universe.

A typical cop-out by the non-mainstream followers. If an object exists out there, it wouldn't be some magical invisible object with extraordinary properties and effects on other objects. It would be either a gas/ice/rocky planet, or a small and cold brown dwarf, with predictable gravitational and light reflecting properties, as well as obeying the celestial mechanics. We know enough about the universe to know what kind of objects exist around stars. _When_ we discover something unprecedented, then we can admit that there's a lot about stellar system bodies that we don't yet understand.

What we know is that there has to be these objects out there otherwise these inner Oort cloud objects wouldn't have these stable orbits, or the fact that they cluster so close to each other which would indicate a solid source as the cause for their fairly stable orbits. If their orbits weren't so clustered at around 0 degrees, and instead they were more random it would indicate the cause as being more likely a localized magnetic cloud, such as the one our Solar System is entering within 100 years.

You're talking about the Kuiper belt objects, right? No one has yet observed Oort cloud objects or their orbits. For all we know, there might not be an Oort cloud, and long-period comets might originate from other stellar systems.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

That certainly does not prove your point, because even thou such meteors are smaller, they are much, much closer to us. Apparently you seem to think that having another unknown gas giant, or sub-stellar companion to our sun would mean that you should be able to see it like we can see Jupiter. This is not the case because in the case of a sub-stellar companion of about 2-3 Jupiter masses it could be at a distance from around +-27,000 of AU. If we use the constraints from WISE that NASA gave us. That would still put such a sub-stellar companion within the Solar System which extends to around 100,000 AU. We don't really know where exactly the Solar System ends, we have guestimates it's at around 100,000+- AU.

Once again, you are arguing my point for me. According to the chart you provide, a "super Jupiter" would be visible at 100,000 AU. None has been detected, even at that distance.

BTW, I noticed that you don't seem to understand that they are talking about 2 objects. One is the super Earth sized planet which would be at around 250 -300 AU, and then there is the sub-stellar companion/brown dwarf which would be at 27,000AU+-. They are talking about 2 different objects

No, I simply have not wasted my time watching the video. The perihelion "anomalies" are spread out over a hundred degrees, one third of a circle. This is probably not significant.

For all we know, there might not be an Oort cloud, and long-period comets might originate from other stellar systems.

There hasn't been a single observed long period comet to date with an original orbit (ie. prior to entering the planetary realm of the Solar System) that has an eccentricity equal to or greater than 1. That is pretty conclusive evidence that these comets are gravitationally bound to the Sun, and always have been.

The perihelion "anomalies" are spread out over a hundred degrees, one third of a circle. This is probably not significant.

Further data is required, but the "finger" could possibly be significant. The arguments of perihelion of these distant objects should be spread across the full 360 degrees, unless something is "shepherding" them into more tightly restrained orbits. It is too early to form a definitive conclusion at this stage.

originally posted by: nataylor
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

That chart puts WISE's detection capability at about 0.8 Jupiter masses at 27,000 AU and 2.1 Jupiter masses at 100,000 AU.

Which I would like to point out, are both well below the ~13 MJ lower mass limit for a brown dwarf, putting them firmly into the sub-brown dwarf category. At that mass range some astronomers would even just call it a planet.
arxiv.org...
A true brown dwarf can be seen from quite far away, even farther than 7 light years. The brown dwarf found by WISE 7 light years away is known to only have 3-10 MJ (arxiv.org... ) and is therefore also in the sub-brown dwarf category (en.wikipedia.org... ) making it quite an impressive find. The researchers who found it refer to it as the coldest known brown dwarf, but really it's more akin to a free floating planet. A true brown dwarf can even be seen by amateur telescopes from much farther distances. I spotted one that is about 50 light years away this past weekend.

It too was detected by WISE in 2010, and by the 2MASS survey back in 1998. I extrapolated its predicted position from the coordinates it was detected at on those two dates and calculated where it should be now in 2014, and you can see those coordinates in this astrometrically solved version of the image; it pinpoints the faint object I detected precisely:
h.dropcanvas.com...
I imaged it in infrared+visible light with my ST-2000XCM. It's some 50 light years away or so, but even I was able to see it. Imagine how bright it would be to my scope if it were in our solar system.

originally posted by: wildespace


A typical cop-out by the non-mainstream followers. If an object exists out there, it wouldn't be some magical invisible object with extraordinary properties and effects on other objects. It would be either a gas/ice/rocky planet, or a small and cold brown dwarf, with predictable gravitational and light reflecting properties, as well as obeying the celestial mechanics. We know enough about the universe to know what kind of objects exist around stars. _When_ we discover something unprecedented, then we can admit that there's a lot about stellar system bodies that we don't yet understand.

Wow... First of all that video is about planetary scientists discussing these findings. All I have done so far is include factual evidence. Nothing I have posted could be construed as "magical". In fact if anyone seems to believe in "magic" in this topic it is people like you... You, and some other people seem to think that planetoids can have orbits that cluster together at the other end of the solar system without anything keeping their orbits so clustered together.

There is no possible way that all these objects on the other side of the solar system could have their orbits so clustered together unless another large object is keeping them there. These orbits so close together couldn't have been formed by a transient object, because a transient object passing through the solar system would have only disturbed the orbits of these planetoids randomly. If there was nothing out there keeping the orbits of these planetoids so clustered together then their orbits would have been random.

originally posted by: wildespace
You're talking about the Kuiper belt objects, right? No one has yet observed Oort cloud objects or their orbits. For all we know, there might not be an Oort cloud, and long-period comets might originate from other stellar systems.

The solar system has been sectioned into three regions by planetary scientists in order to discuss what we observe and discover in those regions. The fact that Sedna , 2012VP113, and other planetoids have been found in the section of the solar system that has been dubbed as the Oort Cloud is evidence that indeed the section of the solar system that has been named as the Oort cloud does exists. Not only that, but we have also found that in the Oort Cloud there are not only thousands of small icy meteors, but there are also planetoids which have their orbits clustered together at the other end of the solar system.

But of course, we have "wildspace" among some other people who want to claim that the orbits of these planetoids being so clustered together at the other end of the solar system seems to be "an act of magic"...

I don't even know why you are discussing this topic when you don't seem to understand what is being talked about.

a reply to: ngchunter

Yet you knew where to find that object because you knew where to look for it because someone else found it there. Yes, if we knew where to look we would find other objects which otherwise we wouldn't even know are there.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Wow, you don't get it. Ok, here's what a brown dwarf looks like to my telescope 12 light years away.
h.dropcanvas.com...
If one were anywhere near the inner solar system it would be plainly visible and obvious to telescopes like mine.

originally posted by: ngchunter
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Wow, you don't get it.

Scientists have determined over the past few decades that many more systems than they originally thought are binary systems. How did they determine this? Through space based infrared telescopes, which there have been quite a few. Many speculate the main reason they were put into space was to search for the Sun's binary.

I don't understand why some people can't make a point without sounding like they are in high school.

Binary Research

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE

originally posted by: ngchunter
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Wow, you don't get it.

Scientists have determined over the past few decades that many more systems than they originally thought are binary systems. How did they determine this? Through space based infrared telescopes, which there have been quite a few. Many speculate the main reason they were put into space was to search for the Sun's binary.

I don't understand why some people can't make a point without sounding like they are in high school.

Binary Research

Many people = people like you who claimed for years that brown dwarf stars could not be seen by amateurs. In other words, people ignorant of real astronomy.
www.cfa.harvard.edu...

a reply to: ngchunter

First of all, you are the one not getting it. They are talking about TWO possible objects. One would be a planet about the size of Earth which would be closer to us, and the other a brown dwarf which would be farther away but still within the solar system.

You obviously did not even watch the video, you seemed to have read the last couple of posts and responded blindly without even understanding the argument being presented.

There is a lot of indirect but observational evidence that suggest the possible existance of another undiscovered large planet, or/and even a brown dwarf within the solar system.

I have already posted these, but for those members who rather skim through the last few posts and respond without reading all the evidence provided here are small summaries of some of the evidence that is suggesting such an object, or objects seem to exist. We just don't know what they are, or where exactly they are.

...
The reason for this is totally unclear. One may speculate that an unknown gravitational field within the Solar system slightly redirects the incoming cosmic microwave radiation (in the similar way as a motion with a certain velocity with respect to the rest frame of the cosmological background redirects the cosmic background radiation and leads to modifications of the dipole and quadrupole parts). Such a redirection should be more pronounced for low–l components of the radiation. It should be possible to calculate the gravitational field needed for such a redirection and then to compare that with the observational data of the Solar system and the other observed anomalies.
...

arxiv.org...

...
The Kuiper Belt contains many peculiar features that cant be explained by standard solar system models. One is the highly irregular orbits of some of the belts members.

The most famous is Sedna, a rocky object located three times farther from the sun than Pluto. Sedna takes 12,000 years to travel once around the Sun, and its orbit ranges from 80 to 100 astronomical units (AU). One AU is equal to the distance between the Earth and the Sun.

Possible Planet X

...
8.2 Other anomalies?
There is one further observation which status is rather unclear bit which perhaps may fit into the other observations. This is the observation of the return time of comets: Comets usually come back a few days before they are expected when applying ordinary equations of motion. The delay usually is assigned to the outgassing of these objects. In fact, the delay is used for an estimate of the strength of this outgassing. On the other hand, it has been calculated in (44) that the assumption that starting with 20 AU there is an additional acceleration of the order of the Pioneer anomaly also leads to the effect that comets come back a few days earlier. It is not clear whether this is a serious indications but a further study of the trajectories of comets certainly is worthwhile.

arxiv.org...

Now AGAIN, SOMETHING has to be keeping the planetoids in the Kuiper and Oort Cloud clustered together. It is not possible that Sedna and the other planetoids we have found so far to have an orbit so clustered together without anything, other than the sun but in the solar system, excerting gravity on them and keeping them in that orbit. Do we know exactly what this object is, or where it is? no... But still, we know there is indirect evidence that suggest such an object/objects are very possibly there but haven't visually been confirmed yet.

In the last video I gave 4 planetary scientists discuss the possibility of such objects due to even more recent evidence seeming to suggest the existence of such an object/s.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

A Planet X may well exist beyond our current abilities to detect it. A brown dwarf, extremely unlikely. As has already been explained to you, a brown dwarf in (or anywhere near) the Solar System would be fairly easily detectable.

With so many infrared all-sky surveys done in the past, which have detected very cool brown dwarfs several light years away, the Sun's "companion" brown dwarf would have been detected also.

You can argue about the hypothetical implications of the available data as much as you want, but the reality is - a brown dwarf in the Solar System is a no-show.

Now AGAIN, SOMETHING has to be keeping the planetoids in the Kuiper and Oort Cloud clustered together. It is not possible that Sedna and the other planetoids we have found so far to have an orbit so clustered together without anything, other than the sun but in the solar system, excerting gravity on them and keeping them in that orbit. Do we know exactly what this object is, or where it is? no... But still, we know there is indirect evidence that suggest such an object/objects are very possibly there but haven't visually been confirmed yet.

It may have been a passing object (a rogue gas giant or even a small and cool brown dwarf) that affected those orbits, but has since then moved away from the Solar System far enough not to be detectable. Kuiper belt and the Oort cloud may be influenced by forces outside the Solar System just as by forces from the inside.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

First, your AOL link does not link to the article you cite. Second you keep confusing the Oort Cloud with the Kuyper Belt, an error of a full order of magnitude. Third, your papers are six years old; since then, the "Pioneer Anomaly" has been explained as being caused by outgassing from both the fuel tanks and batteries. Finally, the many anomalies listed in the first paper may be explained by drag from the interstellar winds or even local variations in time-space. In summary, there may well be a few more bodies large enough to meet the current definition of planet in the Kuyper Belt*, but there is definitely no Brown or Red Dwarf "companion."

*Any planetoid orbiting beyond Neptune that is not in the Oort Cloud can be defined as being in the Kuyper Belt.