US attempts to shoot down flying disks: Were 1947 plane crashes a result of retaliation?

Another Roswell Thread?

"Not another Roswell thread," I hear you cry. Well not exactly. This thread is more information about the backdrop to probably the most important time in the history of the UFO phenomenon, if not the history of humankind. Let's not forget that this was also just a short time since the first atomic bomb tests - the beginning of the nuclear age.

Many of you have probably already seen The Day Before Roswell which is a thread containing, among other things, irrefutable evidence that there was something flying around in the skies of the USA with technological capabilities far beyond anything a civilisation on Earth was capable of building. In fact the author of that thread has collected 1000+ news clippings of UFO sightings from the period May to September 1947. Furthermore, my own thread, about pre-Kenneth Arnold (June 24th, 1947) saucer sightings (let alone other types of sightings), provides abundant evidence that the phenomenon was nothing new.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9d9426498349.png[/atsimg]
So why the new thread? Well the fact is that one of the PR lines frequently repeated is that UFOs are not a national security threat and therefore not a priority for investigation. If this wasn't true right from the beginning of the UFO phenomenon how big a liar would that make Uncle Sam?

Crisis in the skies: Air accidents peak as saucer reports start to rise.

At the end of May and Early June, 1947 there was a huge increase in the number of reported air disasters. The increase was possibly due to a retaliation after US attacks on flying disks (information to follow) the first of which is reported to have occurred on May 29th, 1947.

J. Andrew Kissner, former New Mexico State Rep., Las Cruces, Dona Ana County reports that:

From research conducted to date, over sixty US Army and Navy aircraft - B-29s, B-17s, Corsairs, P-80s, P-84s, AT-6s, P-51s, C-47s, C-54s, F-7s - were lost over this two month period [mid May to Mid July 1947]. A hundred and twenty airmen were killed and seventy four others injured in these incidents - gleaned from [only] four local and one national newspaper.
Source: Kissner, J. Andrew. Peculiar Phenomena. As cited in Timothy Good: Need to Know (p56).

Timothy Good (Need To Know) compounds this data by listing 14 crash reports (including civilian flights) in the three days of May 29th, 30th and 31st. These incidents alone were responsible for the deaths of 173 people of whom the majority were civilians.

When I first read this, the skeptic in me had doubts. One of these was, of course, could it be that these types of accident were occurring all the time? Are Kissner and Good distorting the facts? Could there really have been more air disasters at exactly the same time as huge a increase in the numbers of UFO reports?

The New York Times Archive

NOTE: Due to an unfortunate disk drive problem, I can't provide you with all the data I did have on crashes from the period. To avoid more delays posting this information, I'm afraid I will have to use a readily available archive to show that Good and Kissner are not fabricating all of this. I apologise for not making this quite the thread I intended. And no, I don't think the CIA have hacked my system!

Below is a list of numbers of crashes reported each day (year 1947)in the New York Times online archive.

May 16th: 1; May 17th: 1; May 18th: 1; May 19th: 1; May 20th: 3; May 21st: 1; May 22nd: 2; May 23rd: 0; May 24th: 1; May 25th: 0; May 26th: 1; May 27th: 0; 28th May: 0; 29th May: 0

So nothing out of the ordinary so far (apart from perhaps 3 accidents on May 20th). A number of run of the mill minor incidents. Remember at this point that I have alleged (more information to follow) that the first attempt to shoot down a saucer was probably made on 29th May, 1947! Note that crashes on May 29th will be reported in newspapers on June 30th.

May 30th: 5 (deaths 107, further 3 crashes reported in other sources); May 31st: 5 (59 deaths inc largest US commercial air disaster to that date); June 1st: 5 (10 deaths); June 2nd: 5 (6 deaths);

So we have a huge peak in deaths from air accidents starting on June 29th, 1949.

At this point we see a sudden absence of reports in the New York Times archive. There now appears to be almost no US military accidents reported at all which seems a little unusual.

June 3rd: 0; June 4th: 0; June 5th: 0; June 6th: 2; June 7th: 1; June 8th: 1; June 9th: 0; June 10th: 2; June 11th: 2; June 12th: 2; I will leave it at this point as I seem to remember a number of military incidents which are obviously not reported in this archive. I need to try to relocate the information about this.

If anyone doubts that there was serious concern about what was going on in the skies,
on June 16th, President Truman ordered a special board of Enquiry in response to the incidents.

You can hear Andy Kissner talking about some of this from about 16m30s of the following video. He tries to explain that saucers were interacting with missile tests. This ties in very nicely with the history of UFOs interacting with nuclear sites. There is a bit with the presenters talking you will have to skip or tolerate before Kissner gets to talk again. In the second part he explains that there was an attempt to shoot down a saucer on May 29th, 1947 - exactly when the rise in deaths from air accidents occurred.

Google Video Link

So what do we make of it? Was there really an attempt to shoot down a flying disk? There is certainly evidence that UFOs were spotted around nuclear sites. Surely it would bother the military if missiles could be deflected by "foreign craft"? If the military became aware of advanced craft surely they would make it their business to get hold of the technology?

Let me know what you think. I don't doubt some of you have information surrounding this that I know nothing about.

Originally posted by Pimander
Below is a list of numbers of crashes reported each day (year 1947)in the New York Times online archive.

May 16th: 1; May 17th: 1; May 18th: 1; May 19th: 1; May 20th: 3; May 21st: 1; May 22nd: 2; May 23rd: 0; May 24th: 1; May 25th: 0; May 26th: 1; May 27th: 0; 28th May: 0; 29th May: 0

So nothing out of the ordinary so far (apart from perhaps 3 accidents on May 20th). A number of run of the mill minor incidents. Remember at this point that I have alleged (more information to follow) that the first attempt to shoot down a saucer was probably made on 29th May, 1947! Note that crashes on May 29th will be reported in newspapers on June 30th.
May 30th: 5 (deaths 107, further 3 crashes reported in other sources); May 31st: 5 (59 deaths inc largest US commercial air disaster to that date); June 1st: 5 (10 deaths); June 2nd: 5 (6 deaths);

So we have a huge peak in deaths from air accidents starting on June 29th, 1949.

At this point we see a sudden absence of reports in the New York Times archive. There now appears to be almost no US military accidents reported at all which seems a little unusual.

Hold the phone, there. There's something wrong with your dates.

I know it's just a typo, but it kind of confused me at first. I underlined the problems. Thought you might want to fix that for clarity.


As for the story... very interesting. I had no idea about any of this. Could this be why UFOs are so elusive now days? To avoid a repeat or worse?

I think that you must take into account the many atomic weapons tests as well in your researxh.
These explosions always cause two vortexes that are at antipodes to each other.
These vortises are area of space where atoms do not bind as tightly together as normal space.
The reason for this is scientifically unknown at his point, but the areas of loose binding have been scientifically proven to exist back as far as 1956.
A special detector was devised and built and tested which indicated such areas.
Atomic testing has set off two thousand atomic explosions around the globe i understand.....thats a lot of atomic vertexes, and we have no idea hopw long they last either, though i suspect they hjave largely dissapated by now.....

Retaliation for what?

Operation High Jump?
A soon as you accept the Nazi UFOs being real, all things starts to make sense.

reply to post by Regenstorm


At least it would explain the crashes.
To dumb to fly.

reply to post by Pimander

Before linking aircraft disasters to UFOs, you must consider the circumstances of each crash. You can't meaningfully relate numbers of people killed in aircraft to UFOs without some form of confirmation. Circa late 1940s most aircraft crashes were caused by human error, mechanical failure, or weather. Can you list any specific crashes related to UFOs, officially or unofficially, and what were the circumstances?

Curious if there was a massive amount of increased air traffic (equipment shuffling) during those times as well?

I'm not sure the big and famous Rosewell is considered alien related anymore. Because of all the contradictory information around it, some say just military experiments, project Mogul. others say they were there, they did see a UFO crash/bodies..

What does Mogul mean anyway? Is it an alien name? lol

Around the WW2 and Cold War im sure there was this moment of 'scarying the enemy' US or USSR with false flags of high tech aircraft. I still prefer to look into the undeniable cases and Im not sure Rosewell is one of it any further.

In 1947 the US had just come out of a world war and was just entering the cold war.
Those damn commies had captured nazi scientists and engineers, nazi tech and
were on the verge of completing there own A-bomb, which was tested in 1949.
I think the US would have would have shot down Santa during that period. If ufo's
were buzzing about it would have been a priority to have security in the sky's
and they would have been intercepted. The Kenneth Arnold flying saucer looks like
a Gotha go-229 and was probably being test flown at the time. Either that or it was
Alien and the nazis made a jet powered wood and canvas version of it.
It would be interesting to know if most of the military aircraft that crashed during the
2 month period were in the same area. Bye that I mean over an area of a few states
suggesting some kind of airwar/ battles.

No offense but the theory of retaliation by UFOs for shooting incidents has already been put forth by investigators.

Shoot Them Down - Frank Feschino is an entire novel written on the subject.

it IS a compelling theory. For a while planes in the US were failing to take off as if the rules of flight no longer applied. Once the orders to the military were changed the crashes stopped.

It's one of those circumstantial cases, however and could never be proven short of testimony from an ET and I don't see that happening any time soon, unfortunately.

Originally posted by N3k9Ni
Hold the phone, there. There's something wrong with your dates.

Sorry, I had a feeling there would be confusion about the dates. Although the reports appeared in the newspaper the following day (on May 30th) the events actually took place on May 29th. June 30th is a typo and should read May 30th. A million apologies. Obviously the newspapers are printed during the night so reports appear the following day.

Originally posted by stirling
I think that you must take into account the many atomic weapons tests as well in your researxh.
These explosions always cause two vortexes that are at antipodes to each other.

I can see how you may think that is relevant to UFO sightings. However, the rumours I am discussing here are regarding objects that were associate with specifically missiles rather than nukes. That is not to say that the presence of nukes has nothing to do with sightings of course.

Originally posted by Flyinghaggis
Can you list any specific crashes related to UFOs, officially or unofficially, and what were the circumstances?

I will have to find the time to hunt down some of the data I have lost. Yes there were some suspect cases. You have no idea how frustrating it is to lose data. This will teach me a lesson about backing up data.

Originally posted by ecoparity
No offense but the theory of retaliation by UFOs for shooting incidents has already been put forth by investigators.

Shoot Them Down - Frank Feschino is an entire novel written on the subject.

Yes, it is partly the work of other investigators that I am drawing on here. I had collected more evidence as I said. I wouldn't draw on a novel though in all honesty.

Originally posted by ecoparity
it IS a compelling theory. For a while planes in the US were failing to take off as if the rules of flight no longer applied. Once the orders to the military were changed the crashes stopped.

Well spotted. I will try to find the cases of this happening again but I have seen the reports. Time is always such a precious resource but I will do my best.

Originally posted by weirdguy
In 1947 the US had just come out of a world war and was just entering the cold war.
Those damn commies had captured nazi scientists and engineers, nazi tech and
were on the verge of completing there own A-bomb, which was tested in 1949.
I think the US would have would have shot down Santa during that period. If ufo's
were buzzing about it would have been a priority to have security in the sky's
and they would have been intercepted.

Indeed. Of course they would have attempted to intercept UFOs if they were buzzing the most sensitive military activities in the world. It defies logic to suggest they wouldn't do that in my opinion. The military have been shown to have lied about that fact consistently.

reply to post by Pimander


Some aircraft accident links :
Plane crash info
Aviation safety network
Aircraft-Accidents, military

HTH

reply to post by Flyinghaggis
Thanks for the links. It's a bit disheartening having to go through this process again but I guess it's my own fault for not backing up my files.

So we are expected to believe that alien craft capable of faster than light travel (in order to get here before the occupants die of old age) can be shot down by WWII technology!

Then that same "technology" is used to crash aircraft.

Ok let me put it this way. It would be harder to attack those UFO's than it would our fighter jets of today. So imagine how much of a fight our fighter jets of today would put up against WWII aircraft

reply to post by malcr


Reminds me of "The Final Coutdown". The vid footage was awesome, Tomcats vs Zeros, epic.

However, an old technology weapon could be more effective than you think, and if the operator is determined and gets lucky it could ruin your whole day. ECMs do squat against a cannonball or an arrow, or against a battery of RPGs off the back of a Toyota pickup, or an IED hidden down a drain.

Maybe the unguided rockets and machine gun bullets on those old interceptors scared the cr&p out of the aliens and they retaliated first.

1950 UFO no threat

Ufology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufology - Cached Media hype in the late 1940s and early 1950s following the Arnold sighting brought ..... It concluded unanimously that the UFO sightings posed no direct threat to ...

Never heard of saucers bring fired on as you must get orders first or be
fired upon. Martel only chased a saucer and perhaps got too close and
crashed. It is thought that the saucer vibrations are safe for the crew and
craft but not for nearby sensitive equipment.

Only recently are saucers or triangles thought to have death rays and
tractor beams as weapons or specially developed devices. UFO researcher
Bill Lyne had the local sheriff inspect his rifle due to someone firing on a
saucer. Perhaps ground fire in the hectic early days of the hoax alien invasion
in the 40's made a problem but never heard of that either.

Originally posted by Regenstorm
Retaliation for what?

Operation High Jump?
A soon as you accept the Nazi UFOs being real, all things starts to make sense.

Aries = Mars ---> Aryans = Martians

Same with Venus = Morning and evening star = Pentagram = Lucifer.

LoL you are totally right.

Yes.... They did. They didn't Just try ... Using a new weapon based on radar. I'm not going to explain ..

Listen - from 19.30m



Over and out.

reply to post by Regenstorm

Retaliation for what? Operation High Jump? A soon as you accept the Nazi UFOs being real, all things starts to make sense.

Regenstorm, thanks for the link. I have never heard of this "Operation High Jump" before. I, too, have always felt the Nazi UFO's make much more sense in the big picture. Interesting comments that were alleged to have been made by Admiral Byrd about the U.S. being attacked by "flying objects flying at incredible speeds."

I do believe in extraterrestrial life, but I believe most of the sightings around the world are secret military crafts that likely originated from the Nazi technology which the U.S. has managed to sequester and continue developing after WWII.

Star for you....