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Stimulus Package 2.0: $300 Billion...

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posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 04:32 PM
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Originally posted by samcrow

Originally posted by jjf3rd77We NEED to invest in Technology. Not roads and bridges!!!! Technology will be around for much longer than those roads and bridges.


You can't outsource construction jobs. You can damn sure outsource non-service/repair technology jobs. Where was your TV made? Your iPod? Your computer? Your watch? Your cell phone?


Haha I love how you contradict yourself. Building technology in factories is the same process as building a building. They are still assembly line jobs and they don't exist anymore! in America. You can't outsource construction jobs huh?

What about this? www.telegraph.co.uk...

Anyway I'm not talking about building electronics in factories, I'm talking about teaching people how to program and write code and understand computers. The majority of the population still doesn't know how to do these things, and once they realize its the future, then we will begin to see businesses pop up around the internet again. The major growth fields today is computer systems and IT. We need people trained in this stuff badly because the pundits in Washington fail horribly when it comes to anything tech. They don't understand that somebody aka China can hack most US website with ease. There is a small start up boom happening already and yet, I have been offered quite a few computer jobs after school but I always here construction workers out of working or bouncing around jobs. Hmmmm....




posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 06:30 PM
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reply to post by SeekerofTruth101
 


Again, Sadly that is not so, the brake down of the now 400 billions is going to do what the last two stimulus has done, preserve jobs and keep government pensions extended for a few more months.

Temp jobs are just that temp jobs they only last as long as the money is there, that is why we are heading for our third stimulus and still the nation is going back wards and not forward, borrowing is not the solution to the problem it just makes the problem worst, while sugar coating government GDP figures.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by OldCorp
They should just take the $300 Billion and cut each American a check for $1,000. I don't know about anyone else, but $5,000 sure would stimulate MY economy. That money of course, would go right back into the local and national economy buying goods and services, further stimulating everyone else's personal economy.

Makes sense to me.


I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS ONE!

Winner Instant stimulus



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 07:34 PM
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Originally posted by jjf3rd77

Originally posted by samcrow

Originally posted by jjf3rd77We NEED to invest in Technology. Not roads and bridges!!!! Technology will be around for much longer than those roads and bridges.


You can't outsource construction jobs. You can damn sure outsource non-service/repair technology jobs. Where was your TV made? Your iPod? Your computer? Your watch? Your cell phone?


Haha I love how you contradict yourself. Building technology in factories is the same process as building a building. They are still assembly line jobs and they don't exist anymore! in America. You can't outsource construction jobs huh?

What about this? www.telegraph.co.uk...

Anyway I'm not talking about building electronics in factories, I'm talking about teaching people how to program and write code and understand computers. The majority of the population still doesn't know how to do these things, and once they realize its the future, then we will begin to see businesses pop up around the internet again. The major growth fields today is computer systems and IT. We need people trained in this stuff badly because the pundits in Washington fail horribly when it comes to anything tech. They don't understand that somebody aka China can hack most US website with ease. There is a small start up boom happening already and yet, I have been offered quite a few computer jobs after school but I always here construction workers out of working or bouncing around jobs. Hmmmm....


Have you ever worked a construction job? Or a factory job? The process may be 'similar,' but you can't build a road or a 50 story building in China and ship it to the United States completed. Your own example, the bridge, still has to be put together in the United States, so you've summarily defeated your own argument before you got started.

The issue isn't that people don't know how to program computers, the issue is that the labor force is exponentially more costly to utilize in the United States than elsewhere. That's why the big manufacturing jobs are elsewhere. That's why anything that can possibly be done from India or China or elsewhere is being done there. This is very basic economics. Until the cost is such that, across the board, it is cheaper to manufacture or provide tech services here, it ain't happening.

As far as your IT example, there are tens of thousands of IT people out there right now that are sitting on their collective thumbs because the jobs aren't there. My own former students are some of those people. Now you're going to glut the market with millions more?



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 07:37 PM
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Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by OldCorp
They should just take the $300 Billion and cut each American a check for $1,000. I don't know about anyone else, but $5,000 sure would stimulate MY economy. That money of course, would go right back into the local and national economy buying goods and services, further stimulating everyone else's personal economy.

Makes sense to me.


I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS ONE!

Winner Instant stimulus



Here's something to make your head explode:

The previous stimulus package/bank giveaway was sold to us as absolutely necessary because it'd kill the banks and thus the whole system if we didn't just give those clowns a blank check to pay CEO bonuses and buy new jets. For the amount of money they gave the banks, they could have paid off every existing mortgage in the United States, and for all those that didn't already have houses they could have bought them one and still had money left over.

Chew on that little gem for a while.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 07:57 PM
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Originally posted by samcrow

Originally posted by jjf3rd77

Originally posted by samcrow

Originally posted by jjf3rd77We NEED to invest in Technology. Not roads and bridges!!!! Technology will be around for much longer than those roads and bridges.


You can't outsource construction jobs. You can damn sure outsource non-service/repair technology jobs. Where was your TV made? Your iPod? Your computer? Your watch? Your cell phone?


Haha I love how you contradict yourself. Building technology in factories is the same process as building a building. They are still assembly line jobs and they don't exist anymore! in America. You can't outsource construction jobs huh?

What about this? www.telegraph.co.uk...

Anyway I'm not talking about building electronics in factories, I'm talking about teaching people how to program and write code and understand computers. The majority of the population still doesn't know how to do these things, and once they realize its the future, then we will begin to see businesses pop up around the internet again. The major growth fields today is computer systems and IT. We need people trained in this stuff badly because the pundits in Washington fail horribly when it comes to anything tech. They don't understand that somebody aka China can hack most US website with ease. There is a small start up boom happening already and yet, I have been offered quite a few computer jobs after school but I always here construction workers out of working or bouncing around jobs. Hmmmm....


Have you ever worked a construction job? Or a factory job? The process may be 'similar,' but you can't build a road or a 50 story building in China and ship it to the United States completed. Your own example, the bridge, still has to be put together in the United States, so you've summarily defeated your own argument before you got started.

The issue isn't that people don't know how to program computers, the issue is that the labor force is exponentially more costly to utilize in the United States than elsewhere. That's why the big manufacturing jobs are elsewhere. That's why anything that can possibly be done from India or China or elsewhere is being done there. This is very basic economics. Until the cost is such that, across the board, it is cheaper to manufacture or provide tech services here, it ain't happening.

As far as your IT example, there are tens of thousands of IT people out there right now that are sitting on their collective thumbs because the jobs aren't there. My own former students are some of those people. Now you're going to glut the market with millions more?


It doesn't matter where it's built. It's still the Chinese building the thing. And the companies paying Chinese people to build it. The parts and labor is coming from China.

Again, I'm not talking about infrastructure. I'm talking about education! We NEED to teach people everything we can about computers. I plan to make my resume as flexible as possible and am working towards getting a number of certifications for job security. The problem again, with most IT people is that they train themselves on one thing. Fixing computers. And then when clients run out they are stuck. Why not get educated in more systems while working. Get more certifications to beef up your resume. Not after you lost your job, while your working! Stop playing five hour video games and start learning new stuff.

It's easy. Laziness VS education and hard work. Which pays off in the end?



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 11:04 PM
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Originally posted by jjf3rd77It doesn't matter where it's built. It's still the Chinese building the thing. And the companies paying Chinese people to build it. The parts and labor is coming from China.


Ok, but ask yourself WHY that is happening. Once you answer that, you'll see where the rest of your premise is faulty.


Originally posted by jjf3rd77Again, I'm not talking about infrastructure. I'm talking about education! We NEED to teach people everything we can about computers. I plan to make my resume as flexible as possible and am working towards getting a number of certifications for job security. The problem again, with most IT people is that they train themselves on one thing. Fixing computers. And then when clients run out they are stuck. Why not get educated in more systems while working. Get more certifications to beef up your resume. Not after you lost your job, while your working! Stop playing five hour video games and start learning new stuff.


I'm a college professor with a graduate degree and an additional job working in a very specialized position dealing with GIS mapping and data manipulation. (I say this not because I think it's particularly impressive, but rather to couch what I'm about to say in some type of qualification to make the critiques I do) I'll tell you just like I tell my students...the 'education' system as you recognize it in this country is not the answer. With the exception of some very specialized engineering and hard science jobs, the only 'education' worth anything right now is tech/trade degrees, and even some of them are becoming obsolete.

You can get all the certifications you want, but if some guy in India will do your programming/troubleshooting/support job for $8/hr and it takes $15/hr for you to break even (not to mention the tens of thousands in student loans you'll probably have), then guess who is getting the job.

I don't disagree with your belief that diversification and education are good things, but I would wholly dispute, based on my own rather extensive experience with this stuff, that college degrees and certifications in anything that isn't a trade field are a very risky thing these days, especially for the expense typically incurred to get you there.

edit on 8-9-2011 by samcrow because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-9-2011 by samcrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 12:23 AM
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reply to post by samcrow
 


Thanx for clearing it up sorry i tend to get a little hot head in debates but i can see ur clearly not an idiot but, it's hard to tell sometimes on these forums.

I've gotten plenty of job offers for startup companies out in NYC and that's why I'm having trouble seeing other programmers/IT people struggle with jobs. I love the start up world and want to build my own company one day. I want to get in early to some of these companies so I can help shape them. Once people realize that companies like this exists they will go out and find those jobs like I did. That's just what I believe though.

I think also flexibility comes with it. I don't have any ties to anybody, home family even country. If i find a great job in England I'll move there!


edit on 9-9-2011 by jjf3rd77 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043

Again, Sadly that is not so, the brake down of the now 400 billions is going to do what the last two stimulus has done, preserve jobs and keep government pensions extended for a few more months.

Temp jobs are just that temp jobs they only last as long as the money is there, that is why we are heading for our third stimulus and still the nation is going back wards and not forward, borrowing is not the solution to the problem it just makes the problem worst, while sugar coating government GDP figures.



While I agree with you that the past 2 stimulus had done nothing much, let us retrospectively look at what it had actually done. The 1st and 2nd had basically been a Republican led initiative - to let the rich hoard their wealth.

This time around, it WILL be going into the pockets of those whom WILL NOT HOARD wealth - the middle classes and the poor. They can't afford to, not with the kind of money they are getting. As one here had said ' give me $5000 a month and I will solve my own economic crisis'. This is what the 3rd stimulus will do - circulating wealth.

Temp or permanent jobs make no difference today. A job is a job that PAYS. That is all that matters today till the economy stabilizes within the next 3 years. It's a straw we this generation will have to grab, so long as those jobs pay sustainable wages and not Just Over Broke.

The more jobs are saved, the more it will create from those classes as money is passed. Worker to service providers such as food, water, housing, education,transportation, etc. And within a true Capitalist society, entreprenuers will have to figure out the BEST way to tap such wealth - NOT by doing what a thousand others in the same trade are doing, but by offering something OTHERS DO NOT so as to capture his/her market share, weath and HOPEFULLY, fair (not necessarily equal) distribution of wealth to others.


Others in the world will attempt to copy USA's attempts like China, but sadly, with rife corruption and worse under the dogmatic threatening Commie system, it can never catch up as USA grow in leaps and bounds through its educated citizenery, ready to entreprenuerized and innovate every trade to capture weath.

There is hope. If partisan politics get in the way, then the american Sovereign People must take a stand, seek a Referendum to pass the Obama bill, or all will be lost, not only for americans, but the world's humanity seeking for leadership, a role model, a way out in this moment of crisis, as their forefathers had once sought in the face of Nazi-Jap onslaught....



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101


This time around, it WILL be going into the pockets of those whom WILL NOT HOARD wealth - the middle classes and the poor. They can't afford to, not with the kind of money they are getting. As one here had said ' give me $5000 a month and I will solve my own economic crisis'. This is what the 3rd stimulus will do - circulating wealth.

There is hope. If partisan politics get in the way, then the american Sovereign People must take a stand, seek a Referendum to pass the Obama bill, or all will be lost....


Do you really trust Obama that much? Job Stimulus, Bank stimulus its all the same thing. The truth is, you can't create jobs by printing more money and re-building bridges. You have to allow businesses and people create jobs on their own. We do not get out of debt by spending more money we don't have!!!!!!!!

OK I doubt that this administration can do in a year what it couldn't and what it promised to do in three.



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 02:58 PM
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I strongly support Obama's bill. Although I would focus more on the tax cuts for working Americans and tax incentives for small business. I think in the current political climate, this is about the best deal that can made between the parties. Sadly GOP will not support tax cuts for the average working American without tax cuts for the rich. Obama is right, at this stage in our economy, we cannot do both. Nor does it make sense in this economy to have the richest corporations and people paying less of their share, while the people at the bottom struggle to eat and keep a roof over their heads. The rich need to stop sitting on their money. Economies only work when money circulates.



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 03:58 AM
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reply to post by ExPostFacto
 



I strongly support Obama's bill. Although I would focus more on the tax cuts for working Americans and tax incentives for small business. I think in the current political climate, this is about the best deal that can made between the parties. Sadly GOP will not support tax cuts for the average working American without tax cuts for the rich. Obama is right, at this stage in our economy, we cannot do both. Nor does it make sense in this economy to have the richest corporations and people paying less of their share, while the people at the bottom struggle to eat and keep a roof over their heads. The rich need to stop sitting on their money. Economies only work when money circulates.


I don't know of any small businessmen that hire new people because they will get a tax break. That's putting the cart before the horse, and illustrates Obama's lack of basic economic knowledge. As far as paying "fair shares", the fact is that 47% of Americans pay zero income tax. The country is being carried by the rich people's taxes right now. This concept that Obama somehow can declare what is "fair" is absurd. And his worn-out story of Warren Buffet and his secretary is so full of crap as to make it laughable. Fact be known, Buffet is in court right now suing because he claims he is being overtaxed. Want a source? Goto the Berkshire Hathaway annual report; it is mentioned there, his fight over a billion $ he feels he is being overtaxed.

Fair share can be accomplished by a consumption tax. But that doesn't sell too well with the masses.



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 04:05 AM
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Thls time, the printing will totaly collapse the dollar



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 10:37 AM
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When US was whacked with the downgrade in credit rating a month back by S&P, instead of the economy crumbling, the casino stock market took a dive and much of those funds, billions went into hiding/hoarding, not in banks or homes, but into guranteed by US gov but without interest vaults.

There is a lotta moolahs in those vaults now. US is a rich human capital and mineral resource nation, unlike other nations, and do have the ability to make those gurantees. Think of those gold bullions in Fort Knox and its worth today. Any further printing may not even be necessary now.

How this stimulus will work this time is:-

1. Infrastructure and current worker gets job, keeps job, social welfare recipients get funds = money to circulate wealth within economy by paying for food,water, transport, health, education,etc = CREATE MARKET DEMAND = farmers/miners/manufacturers INCREASE production = MORE JOBS = more circulation of wealth = more going into banks/corporations/gov treasuriess ( thriple original stimulus amount) = safer standard investment of funds by banks for 6% returns ANNUALLY, not daily to pay CEOS, Corporations to expand biz, gov to fund further circulation of wealth = Recovery of US economy within 3 yrs.

2. USA alone is self sufficient to recover on its own using its own human capital and mineral resources WITHIN ITS OWN economy. Anything else is bonus.

Other nations do not have the kinda of conditions US have, but with international trade, money will circulate and lead to a global recovery eventually.


3. The stock market is no indicator of a nation's economic health. If Las Vegas reports that it is empty of gamblers, would anyone claim it is a sign of economic health? Nope, no one will. It only mean Americans are getting morally healthy.

Thus similarly, if the stock market is moribund, or little ups or downs, it is NOT signs of economic health, after all, it is only another gambling hall. It only mean average investors are now more savy and know the truth of that casino, and are not willing to be fools for the super-rich to scam them again.

4. But most critical of all, is to NEVER hoard wealth again. It is ok to save for that TV, that overseas holiday, funds for kid's education or one's retirement, but must never save EVERY penny. If money stops circulating again, like what the other earlier stimulus given to banks whom had only hoard it up and used little to circulate, we will be screwed for sure this time.

edit on 10-9-2011 by SeekerofTruth101 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 12:46 PM
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When one looks at the $400billion being given out, one would naturally thinks that it goes into a sinking hole. But that's far from the truth, because Macroeconomics will come into play.

When a US construction worker, or industry worker, or even the social welfare recipient receives the money from that Stimulus fund, he does not hoard the money. He can't afford to. Even if he dares not think of luxuries, he would still need to pay for food, water and home. If he's married, there's more to pay.

But he has a choice on foods and water - bread, burgers, beef, fish, chicken, ramen, tap water, coke, beer or wine. With his pay, it will attract others that do not get that stimulus fund directly to try their darnest to tempt that worker to SPEND his money on him. Thus, a secondary level of employment is created.

In turn, this secondary level of employment will need to create more jobs to meet or cope with demand, if his marketing strategy is BETTER THAN OTHERS that the workers will buy from him. He will need admins, accountants, manufacturing and workers, materials, etc, etc. Viola! A third level of employment is created.

Each will try to save at least a bit of money left over for tomorrow, meaning they will keep some of it in banks. The worker, with the least, to the manufacturer boss, with the most. Extrapoliate to the 100% employed citizens, that's a lotta moolahs in banks, to catiously lend for valuable projects that create more jobs.

As everyone pay taxes, the gov treasuries are filled up again - to pay debts and initiate further social services such as teachers, doctors, etc.

This was what should had been done in the first stimulus, but unfortunately, it went to banks whom sat on the money, hoarded it up, paid to the rich whom equally hoarded it all up, Thus that stimulus didnt work. But this time, if it is done properly to CIRCULATE wealth by giving to those whom WILL spend it, will work.

As for the claim that US have NO MONEY...that's the greatest joke. Americans are literally sitting above the greatest wealth any human would drool for - arable land on surface and minerals below, not to mention the greatest resource is always the educated citizens, fully capable of innovation. As a society, such wealth belongs not to one or a few elites, but to the entire sovereign People to be SHARED fairly.

In anycase, current printed money over the centuries DO NOT disappear. It just went into hiding, and fortunately for US, in american vaults guranteed by representatives of the People - the gov. Even IF it went into hiding in homes and there is a shortfall of money, the gov will have to replace those money by printing more, thus devaluing the dollar, to the point that it would be utter stupidity if not suicidal for owners of such hoard to keep it hidden. They will be rushing to spend it, thus CIRCULATING money again. ;-)

Hope this very, very simplified explanation may help more understand the critical stimulus issue. Cheers!



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by SeekerofTruth101
 


That is one big IF!

Wake up, people don't share. It's wrong, yes, but you can't make people share what they don't want to. Some people will share some things but not everyone. You will get greedy people. so people will always hoard.

How do you know that people will spend? They could put that money towards their savings, towards their college funds. There is a college loan crisis going on in the world right now ya know. Billions of college students that borrowed money from the banks in 2008 are now having to pay it back and they don't have the money to do so. Because their are no jobs, and when do college kids have to start paying back their loans? Six months after graduation. It is almost undeniable that these 'new' jobs will be gone in six months. Taken by the people out of work now, and the illegals. Leaving the current graduating class and my graduating class without jobs and a way to pay back the banks.

How do you know that Obama's stimulus will work when the other two stimulus' didn't work? 1 out of 3 isn't very good odds. Neither is 0 out of 2. It's just smoke and mirrors. and another stimulus under a new name.

How will circulating money around the poor help the entire nation? Let me tell you something that some liberals don't understand. Printing more money doesn't mean that the nation is wealthier!!! In fact, it means that we are getting more into debt, delaying the inevitable financial collapse. We need to start paying off our debt, first to china, then to the Fed. That's the only way to balance the budget and eventually lower it. We can't get out of it by spending. It's just not going to happen.





edit on 10-9-2011 by jjf3rd77 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by mishigas
As far as paying "fair shares", the fact is that 47% of Americans pay zero income tax.


That's not a fact at all. If you received a tax return you'd be one of those 47%. One of the millions who simply don't make enough money to owe any extra at the end of the year.



posted on Sep, 11 2011 @ 11:04 AM
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C',mon, EVERYONE pay taxes, directly or indirectly. You mean the corporations or small biz aint gonna figure the tax component into their costings? Sheesh, wake up, folks.

Small or big biz exists only to profit. They aint socialists or heart gushing folks that cares about society despite all the supposed hypocritical 'social responsibility' BS they often spout in the media.

By all means, do so, its only a capitalist society we all live in, so let us have NO illusions please. And thus, in the market place, only the strongest survive, rightly so, thus those who cant stand the kitchen's heat, are free to go to China, and let other american entreprenuers who have the guts the opportunity to win in the american market place, with proper People's (gov)help, oversight through regulation so that they do not go overboard and harm our environment or society.

Remember always - Capitalism, like any other human social ideology, is not perfect and do have flaws. Capitalist Biz privatise profits and will ALWAYS attempt to socialize costs and losses if given the chance. Thus the need for civilised societies to ensure a level of fair play with win win solutions for all.

Let the small or big biz whinners close down or get lost if they fail to give value to the american people. The market has no place for losers whom will only drag and waste precious resources. Let China and other cheapo nations waste theirs if they are stupid enough to allow it to happen. US must never go down this road.

It's time we buck up productivity, create quality and progessive products or services that americans are fully capable of and marketing it, share and circulate that wealth that we are all currently standing on, underneath us and surrounding us all.
edit on 11-9-2011 by SeekerofTruth101 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 11 2011 @ 10:47 PM
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reply to post by mishigas
 


I actually agree with consumption tax. It could work as, sorry to say the biggest consumers are probably corporations. Most average working people buy something every now and then, but corporations are constantly consuming. I am not talking about manufacturing, but service oriented businesses. They consume paper, ink, all types of supplies, etc.

There really is no easy solution that fixes the economy without drastically changing it. While I may agree with Obama's plan, I only see it helping and not fixing anything. My opinion, is this system is about to crash and without major reforms and reductions in spending overseas first, people at home are going to be hurting big time.



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