I Am a Straight, Married Christian Male in Support of Gay Marriage

Originally posted by yes4141
My point on Satan was said earlier, I won't repeat it again. But wow, reversal of letters... Is that supposed to be a serious point?

It is what it is !

I cannot determine what is serious to you. Only you can decide that.

I'm talking about the people who you have said you believe are/ have been. The ones which you mention in that above paragraph. If god forces SOME to do 'good' then he is not giving them free will. He also alleviates any responsibility they have to not be 'bad' therefore not creating all people equally or anything like it.

He either gives free will and alows man to sin, and then punishes. Or, he takes away free will, in which case he makes man do good.

Jesus brought up this same point, and the Jews wanted to stone him for it.

John|10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John|10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John|10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John|10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John|10:30 I and my Father are one.

John|10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

The Jews had the same problem, accepting that some people were destined to follow Jesus by design, and others were not. His sheep hears his voice, but others cannot understand his words.

Obviously, people are not equal here in this sense. Some will follow Jesus, others will not.

How do you manage to contradict yourself in such a small sentence?

The word "future" is relative to a point in time. Today is the future time relative to 1 B.C.

No, not today, the future as I said. Knowledge will (hopefully) continue to grow therefore potentially revealing the (correct) answers to parts of the bible which you may believe you understand now. Surely you're not so arrogant as to not accept that knowledge will increase therefore your interpretations could change along with it (such as you deciding which eras are the 'ages'- this is a very simple example of it).

Sure, we will know more. But, we know enough now to interpret some parts now.

You just said in the earlier post that you believe god shall 'recode our DNA'. This is an interpretation you could not have made 400 years ago.

Right. I don't know anyone who could have made this interpretation 400 years ago. However, that doesn't mean nobody could. The Rosslyn Chapel was built some 500 years ago, and the apprentice pillar displays an eiry resemblance to the helical DNA, some claiming it was secret knowledge among the few initiates. But public knowledge about DNA had to await the 20th century.

Therefore as I said earlier, unless you are at a whole new plateau of arrogance you must accept that future information could make you consider your interpretations at the moment are wrong and you would form new interpretations (like you said, the god would not expect people to fully understand the bible until future times).

I don't know what specifically would be wrong. There may be "more information" in the same verses, for example. But, the additional knowledge wouldn't contradict what we can understand today.

No, if you are stating you are CERTAIN that your interpretations (as many things are exactly that) of the bible are fact and fully known (as you have) then that is a huge amount of faith in yourself as you cannot possibly experience other people's subjectivity.

Yes, I am certain.

But, I'm not saying the verses are "fully interpreted".

I only say that the "partial interpretation" is correct.

There may be more information encoded into the same verses (which I interpret) that are yet to be revealed by additional knowledge.

However, the verses in the bible often have "layers" of interpretation. If you read that book I mentioned you'd understand.

More of the layers are accessible to us today than in the past, because of our additional knowledge.

Your response about language is firstly significantly misunderstanding the point and secondly largely redundant considering the bible in English is at least a second generation translation and therefore not the 'pure' (supposed) word of god. You are merely reading an English version of what someone believes is the closest translation from the original (and copy)- this of course presumes that there was no deliberate alterations made.

It doesn't matter. God is still here. God knows English too. He directs the translations and the revisions. The essense of what is important remains.

Originally posted by mikellmikell
It's been OK for me since the 70's that means more women for the normal guys

What normal guys? You may be heterosexual, but that doesn't qualify you as "normal". Give me a break.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by spw184
>

Im gay and i know people who have fully functioning families with two same sex parents.

I'm straight and I know straight couples that are just so happy
until we found out otherwise

You don't know what goes on behind closed doors
I'm not at all suggesting they will do bad things to the child, please don't interpret that

But a baby needs a father figure and a mother figure

You know how many people living in ghettos complain of not having a fatherly role model?
How is a lesbian couple going to teach the kid to play fastball?
How is a lesbian couple going to teach a kid how to shave?

the list goes on and on
How would a father explain girls getting their periods to a little girl? She would feel so uncomfortable

and i'm only scratching the surface here

You people make it seem like gay guys or lesbians don't know anybody of the opposite sex and couldn't have a brother, sister, friend or someone else be able to teach certain things to the child. You people against gays adopting seem that you would rather have the kid grow up in an orphanage with NO family whatsoever. Sure having a father and mother can be beneficial to children, but that's not the case for a lot of children. Apparently there is not enough hetero couples to take in a child with nobody. Those kids already have it bad with no parents, I doubt that being in a family with two parents of the same sex is going to be a detriment to their upbringing.

Being gay isn't something you catch. Either you are or you aren't. Whatever the kid is will be evident once he hits adolescence and if the kid is heterosexual, he will be heterosexual. If the kid is gay, then he's going to be gay. How could and why would somebody go against how they feel? They wouldn't. The only thing about the gay kid is he won't have to pretend that he is straight while he grows up like so many people have done.

reply to post by The Old American


RE: "I'm not really sure why, other than I cannot fathom being sexually attracted to the opposite sex."

Me neither. So are you a gay man or not? Was that a Freudian slip?

Originally posted by spw184

Originally posted by XplanetX
reply to post by The Old American

 

You might be married, you might be straight, but you are not a christian. If you want to have Jesus Christ as your saviour then you need to repent.

Oh no you didnt! Who are YOU to tell US if we are christian or not? I go to church every sunday, sing every song, take communion, pray every prayer, go to (Most) the outside church activities, and your saying im not christian? Im more "Guilty" than he is, cuz I AM gay. I think we need to leave the whole "Do this or go to hell" Stuff for god to decide? Mm'K?

Don't get upset when somebody says something dumb like what The Old American said. If you know what you are in your heart, you have nothing to worry about. All the external things are for show and don't really qualify for anything.

Originally posted by discharged77
reply to post by Domo1

 

Sorry about the spelling, since english is my second language i think i do very good. It does not hurt me at all, it is not moral for marriage, atheist, Marxist, liberal garbage. The gay agenda goes deeper than marriage, if you dont think so you are blind.

First of all, it's "I think I do very well". What gay agenda??? It's hilarious how some heterosexual people actually think there's a "gay agenda".

Originally posted by discharged77
If it is proven that there is a "gay gene" than I will say that being gay is just how you are born, but that has yet to be shown. I know a guy who was married for 15 years and had 3 kids, then one day he leave his wife and now he goes with other gays. I ask him was he always knowing he was a homo? He told me that he just got sick of his wife's nagging and that he turned gay. I have heard these stories elsewhere also.

You can't take your friends decision as the absolute truth as to why people are gay. If he answered that he got sick of her nagging and turned gay, then I would think he was lying. Usually when a straight man leaves his wife, he will find another woman. Your friend was probably gay and hiding in the closet for those 15 years. I don't know any man who is heterosexual turning gay overnight. A man who is straight would have NO interest in other men. A man who is pretending to be straight and living a lie, might eventually get tired of the charade and decide to be who he truly is. There are a lot of men who have been told growing up bad things about being gay. So they try to live their lives the way they think they are expected to. They get married, have kids. But they aren't happy. The fact that they are gay and are attracted to men is always there.

Originally posted by zerimar65

Originally posted by discharged77
reply to post by Domo1

 

Sorry about the spelling, since english is my second language i think i do very good. It does not hurt me at all, it is not moral for marriage, atheist, Marxist, liberal garbage. The gay agenda goes deeper than marriage, if you dont think so you are blind.

First of all, it's "I think I do very well". What gay agenda??? It's hilarious how some heterosexual people actually think there's a "gay agenda".

Ikr!! Did you hear their wacked out theory about us outlawing hetrosexuality?

Originally posted by spw184


Ikr!! Did you hear their wacked out theory about us outlawing hetrosexuality?

Did you ever hear about that wacked concept of gay marriage?

How do they produce offspring?

reply to post by DRAZIW

The Jews had the same problem, accepting that some people were destined to follow Jesus by design, and others were not. His sheep hears his voice, but others cannot understand his words. Obviously, people are not equal here in this sense. Some will follow Jesus, others will not.

My problem with this is: If people do not have equal opportunity and potential for good/ bad then how can they be judged the same or sent to the same places for eternity. If a person has chosen and strived to help humanity their whole lives and someone is simply programmed to do likewise they would end in the same place? More importantly, people would get eternal reward for nothing they could do anything about, where as those who (depending on which interpretation you have) could simply not help nor hinder anybody their entire lives and gets eternal punishment.

Sure, we will know more. But, we know enough now to interpret some parts now.

The term future, unless stated, means relative to now- at least that is how I meant it and thought that was apparent. Yet you are still even inviting the possibility that the 'correct' interpretations would only be apparent with future knowledge.

But, the additional knowledge wouldn't contradict what we can understand today.

Again, future knowledge could be beyond anyone's current comprehension: you surely cannot be assured of that.

However, the verses in the bible often have "layers" of interpretation. If you read that book I mentioned you'd understand.

This is becoming almost paradox- like. The 'layers' of interpretations are quite obviously interpretations themselves. Just like any poem.

It doesn't matter. God is still here. God knows English too. He directs the translations and the revisions. The essense of what is important remains.

So again those doing the translations have been robbed of their free will? You KNOW that god knows english? It may seem a pedantic point but this is again your assumption to make your faith worthwhile (rhetorical faith of course as you claimed you were "certain" of these things- you cannot invest faith in something of which you are "certain").

There seems to be unending rhetorical trap doors and escape hatches which are used to avoid any seeming problems in the entire web of beliefs.

Like your statement about DNA changing earlier, I simply must insist that anything which is not stated (preferably explicitly) in the Bible is your own personal assumption and belief. You cannot build scaffolding of claims to hold up your beliefs in modern times- it is simply the information within the Bible or not Christianity....and that includes all the inconsistencies and "nasty bits"...

Originally posted by yes4141

My problem with this is: If people do not have equal opportunity and potential for good/ bad then how can they be judged the same or sent to the same places for eternity.

The only people who are "judged", are those who had the free will to choose.

If a person has chosen and strived to help humanity their whole lives and someone is simply programmed to do likewise they would end in the same place?

Yes. But, it's not the way you think. There's an order to the process.

First, man gets free will. He can do good or bad. It's his choice. Then, those who do good are "chosen" and "reprogrammed" to always to good. So, that keeps them on the path of righteousness. They are called "saved".

God then considers the "bad" guys. The ones who sinned. And he decides, for his own reasons, which to forgive and which not. The ones he forgives, he also "saves" and they too are reprogrammed to do good, and he remembers their sins no more.

The final lot. The bad ones he didn't feel like forgiving, he sends to another place.

Again, future knowledge could be beyond anyone's current comprehension: you surely cannot be assured of that.

We are assured that the ordinary meanings of the verses will remain the same. The special and more obscure meanings that may become known in the future will not contradict the ordinary meanings. In other words, the "opposite" message, will never be encoded into the verse. The other "layers" of messages in any verse are all supportive of each other. They just add depth of understanding, or are applicable in parallel ways.

This is becoming almost paradox- like. The 'layers' of interpretations are quite obviously interpretations themselves. Just like any poem.

And it takes "revelation" AND "reason" to understand the bible.

He that reads the book will be struck by certain verses that illuminate his mind for him.

So again those doing the translations have been robbed of their free will?

How can they be robbed? God gave them free will, and takes it back. It was his to give, and his to take.

You KNOW that god knows english?

Yes. Because I know English. And God is greater than me. There is nothing that I know that God doesn't already know.

It may seem a pedantic point but this is again your assumption to make your faith worthwhile (rhetorical faith of course as you claimed you were "certain" of these things- you cannot invest faith in something of which you are "certain").

There seems to be unending rhetorical trap doors and escape hatches which are used to avoid any seeming problems in the entire web of beliefs.

There are no problems with the belief system.

Like your statement about DNA changing earlier, I simply must insist that anything which is not stated (preferably explicitly) in the Bible is your own personal assumption and belief.

It is explicitly stated in the bible. The Lord god took a "rib" out of Adam to make Eve. That 'rib' is the 'rib' in the fully fertilized single cellular Adam called the 'XY' chromosome. He makes the 'XX' rib that is "woman" from it, as it says in Genesis, and "brings her onto Adam" the original cell, putting back in the changed rib, to make the female version of Adam. All explained in the book I mentioned, and written explicitly using "common language" in the Bible. It is cross-gender cloning, or Genetics 101.

You cannot build scaffolding of claims to hold up your beliefs in modern times- it is simply the information within the Bible or not Christianity....and that includes all the inconsistencies and "nasty bits"...

I don't know any inconsistencies.

I haven't memorized every verse in the bible, but nobody has been able to demonstrate any inconsistency to me.

reply to post by DRAZIW

First, man gets free will. He can do good or bad. It's his choice. Then, those who do good are "chosen" and "reprogrammed" to always to good. So, that keeps them on the path of righteousness. They are called "saved".

Please quote me where the bible says people are reprogrammed as you say. If not, this is again purely your own assumption.

He that reads the book will be struck by certain verses that illuminate his mind for him.

I agree with that. I still remember opening the bible to a random page in a hotel room and reading how if a husband dies, his wife is passed like property to his next oldest brother, if he dies then the woman is passed to the next older brother and so on through all 7 brothers. I'm sorry I cannot remember the verse, but it certainly made an impact.

How can they be robbed? God gave them free will, and takes it back. It was his to give, and his to take.

Ahh, okay. Like how a father can murder his son- he gave him life and now he's simply decided to take it back.

There are no problems with the belief system.

I'm sorry, but could you elaborate? I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

I haven't memorized every verse in the bible, but nobody has been able to demonstrate any inconsistency to me.

Incest?
Murder?
Rape? (Good old Moses...)

Then of course:
Age of Earth,
People's ages (Methuselah),
Dinosaurs,

...
Also, you never answered where in the bible it states that DNA will be altered in the end days or similiar.

Originally posted by yes4141

Please quote me where the bible says people are reprogrammed as you say. If not, this is again purely your own assumption.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 KJV

I agree with that. I still remember opening the bible to a random page in a hotel room and reading how if a husband dies, his wife is passed like property to his next oldest brother, if he dies then the woman is passed to the next older brother and so on through all 7 brothers. I'm sorry I cannot remember the verse, but it certainly made an impact.

Matthew 22:24-30 KJV

Ahh, okay. Like how a father can murder his son- he gave him life and now he's simply decided to take it back.

The FATHER gives life, but the Father only multiplies according to the FATHER's design.

I'm sorry, but could you elaborate? I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

Nether do I. That's why I can't see any problem.

Incest?
Murder?
Rape? (Good old Moses...)

Then of course:
Age of Earth,
People's ages (Methuselah),
Dinosaurs,

I don't see any inconsistency here. Could you elaborate?

...
Also, you never answered where in the bible it states that DNA will be altered in the end days or similiar.

See above.

Originally posted by zerimar65
reply to post by The Old American

 

RE: "I'm not really sure why, other than I cannot fathom being sexually attracted to the opposite sex."

Me neither. So are you a gay man or not? Was that a Freudian slip?

That was "not proof reading before posting". But most people know what I meant.

/TOA

Originally posted by zerimar65

Originally posted by spw184

Originally posted by XplanetX
reply to post by The Old American

 

You might be married, you might be straight, but you are not a christian. If you want to have Jesus Christ as your saviour then you need to repent.

Oh no you didnt! Who are YOU to tell US if we are christian or not? I go to church every sunday, sing every song, take communion, pray every prayer, go to (Most) the outside church activities, and your saying im not christian? Im more "Guilty" than he is, cuz I AM gay. I think we need to leave the whole "Do this or go to hell" Stuff for god to decide? Mm'K?

Don't get upset when somebody says something dumb like what The Old American said. If you know what you are in your heart, you have nothing to worry about. All the external things are for show and don't really qualify for anything.

The Old American didn't say something dumb. The poster's reply was someone else's reply to my OP.

/TOA

Originally posted by DRAZIW

Originally posted by spw184


Ikr!! Did you hear their wacked out theory about us outlawing hetrosexuality?

Did you ever hear about that wacked concept of gay marriage?

How do they produce offspring?

Marriage isn't required to produce offspring. Only biology is. Many straight couples don't have children for many reasons, and sometimes because their bodies just can't do it. But they marry anyway because of love, or convenience, or whatever reason they want to. Legally, a straight couple can marry for the simple idea of convenience and tax breaks. Why aren't gays allowed to do that?

/TOA

Originally posted by The Old American
Legally, a straight couple can marry for the simple idea of convenience and tax breaks. Why aren't gays allowed to do that?

Because the blessings the society created for straight couples in marriage are intended to support a family with children. The reason being, the children are the future. Although some couples can't have children, there's no telling whether that situation might change in the future. The bible has many stories of the old having children when everybody thought it was impossible. So, until one or both of the couple die, the "possibility" of having kids exists. Although some straight couples may get married with no intention of having children, they could still change their minds and have children, and often do. Gays cannot produce, so should not get the benefits and blessings as if they could.

I dont take any notice of whether someone is gay or not or whether they get married or not. They are just people with emotions like anyone else. If they love each other and they commit themselves or wish to do so to each other who thinks they are fit to judge whether that is right or wrong? Children are the most resilient of creatures, they respond to love discipline principles virtues and good upbringing as well as the loving comfort that is provided by their 'carers/guardians'. Notice I do not put mums and dads. There are many children who are adopted and many of them even when they meet their birth parent will say that they consider their adoptive parent as their real mum or dad because they were the carer throughout their life and form their bonds with them.

Therefore whether someone is green blue orange or red gay, lesbian or has two heads makes no difference to children who are loved and cared for with their needs provided. Children do not judge, they are the most innocent of all. Many Gay parents are so conscientious about being gay that they take the time to explain to their children why there is not a dad and a mum.

Issues only arise if people make an issue out of a situation like this.

In everyones true psyche we feel Male and Female go together - all the bits fit really and it seems the natural pairing for human beings. We have to allow also for the fact that nothing is perfect in that assumption and that if there are those who do not 'fit the standard pairing' of what Society believes to BE the perfect pairing we should not preside as judge and jury over it.

I have had some absolutely lovely gay people as friends over the years. I truly do not see anything different about them or their views or their relationships being a problem to me anyway. If any of the gay people I knew wanted to adopt a child I really do not think it would have occurred to me that it was wrong or bad because I knew the people personally. Sadly though this is one of those issues that will always raise debate because religion and the bible deems it to be wrong and they do spread their word all over the world.

Perhaps if we stamp out religion and just let people be free to love who they want we would not have all this controversy. I dont mean to be offensive with that last remark, I merely meant that religion interferes with the universe too much and has clouded free opinion.

Originally posted by DRAZIW

Originally posted by spw184


Ikr!! Did you hear their wacked out theory about us outlawing hetrosexuality?

Did you ever hear about that wacked concept of gay marriage?

How do they produce offspring?

Did you ever hear about those marriages where people dont have sex?
If they dont have sex they can't have offspring!
Or what about sterile couples?
Omg thats so crazy!

reply to post by DRAZIW


This is a reply to your last several posts, summed up.

1. The bible is a cornerstone, it is not the "Only book of knowledge" and it can still exist if it is not in the bible (DNA).

2. There are many couples who do not sex, or reproduce, and even many that CANT reproduce, so its not that big of a stretch to let gays in.

3. How can you just quote the bible so spontaniously? Do you have like the whole thing memorized???

4. Your posts are too long, can you please shorten them?