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A question for the ATS Enthusiast...When does LIFE begin?

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posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 06:25 PM
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I have been on ATS for about a year and a half now, followed it for much longer though.
I have also been impressed by the level of knowledge, wisdom and understanding that many here show.
That is the reason I pose the question; When does life begin?
This is a topic that we can discuss as adults, like adults.
I ran across a site while doing research for another thread and I would like some input on it and maybe some research of your own.
Or maybe you would just like to share your thoughts and opinions.
Here is the part of the site that grabbed my attention........



From the moment when the sperm makes contact with the oocyte, under conditions we have come to understand and describe as normal, all subsequent development to birth of a living newborn is a fait accompli.
That is to say, after that initial contact of spermatozoon and oocyte there is no subsequent moment or stage which is held in arbitration or abeyance by the mother, or the embryo or fetus.
Nor is a second contribution, a signal or trigger, needed from the male in order to continue and complete development to birth.
Human development is a continuum in which so -called stages overlap and blend one into another. Indeed, all of life is contained within a time continuum.
Thus, the beginning of a new life is exacted by the beginning of fertilization, the reproductive event which is the essence of life.
Herein lies the importance of distinguishing between the science of developmental biology and the science of Human Embryology.
Within the science of Human Embryology, the continuum of life is more fully appreciated. The fact that development and developmental principles do not cease with birth becomes more fully realized.
So, the continuum of human development does not cease until death, whenever that may occur, in utero or at 100 years of age.

www.lifeissues.net...

There is alot more information on the site. I believe it gives a good scientific argument for life beginning at the moment of conception.
But what does ATS think?
When does life begin?

Quad




posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 06:30 PM
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When the baby can be born, looks like a person, and the only way to do an abortion is by a partial birth abortion method.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 06:35 PM
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I saw my daughters heart beat on the ultrasound right around 5 weeks. That was plenty good enough for me.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 06:40 PM
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reply to post by Ultraman2011
 


I believe that is how many feel.
We are better able to make a "connection" with something that looks like a person instead of a mass of cells, but does that lack of connection with the mass of cells mean that life is not present?



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 06:49 PM
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I think you are asking when does life become a sentient being
Am I correct?



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 06:55 PM
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I would say at conception, but I could likely be swayed into "when the heart starts beating on it's own". Best way to avoid unwanted children is an aspirin; clasped firmly between the knees.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 06:56 PM
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reply to post by Quadrivium
 


i like to think that when a young couple has just finished sharing the most intimate of moments and Mother Nature has just begun to do what she does so well..as that couple holds each other in love, soon to find out they are to be parents..that's when life begins.

on a more philosophical bend, i feel life begins so many times throughout the course of one's existence. the first day at school. falling in love for the very first time. going to the mountains or the beach and discovering just how awesome and beautiful it is. your wedding day. finding your faith after losing it, and being deeply re-filled with the spirit. the day you adopt or have a child. living through a near-death experience. when one is in the throes of exhilaration from having driven a motorcycle over 100MPH.

and a very important 'when life begins': when someone has taken the time to explains things, to pique your interest that gets your curiosity going which leads you to seek answers - the kind of answers that let you see what's really going on, that takes you from 'sheeple' to aware, educated and pissed-off...that too is when life begins.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 07:03 PM
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Originally posted by MJZoo
I saw my daughters heart beat on the ultrasound right around 5 weeks. That was plenty good enough for me.


Beautifully put. Its an enlightening experience.
Life begins for another,
the moment you acknowledge it in your heart.
Love creates life.
Compassion brings it to fruition.
We (all creatures) are so much more than cells, acids and proteins.
If only we would allow ourselves to see it.

Oh, and life begins at 40!



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 07:03 PM
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I don't have any kids, so I can't identify with the emotional attachment that parents have with their children.

I am sure I will be hated and ridiculed for this but in my opinion. Life doesn't begin until the child is conscious of itself beyond basic instinctual needs. So I would have to say that a human does not qualify as a Person until somewhere between 6 months and 1 year.

But for the purposes of abortion I think when the child is biologically capable of surviving outside of the mother.
i.e. After the natural cycle of pregnancy has run it's course.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 07:04 PM
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reply to post by Quadrivium
 
Well now, HERE'S a fun topic...which I don't know if there's an easy answer for.

I'm inclined to lean toward what's posted in your OP; that life begins at conception with its own genetic code and will normally progress to a full human being if not interfered with.

Otherwise, an interesting factoid is that the pineal gland is fully developed roughly around day 49, is considered by some to be the seat of the soul, and supposedly the Tibetan Book of the Dead says the soul inhabits the body 49 days after conception.

As far as some of the answers so far discussing the fetus looking like a person and surviving outside the womb, we're looking at about 5.5-6 months (around the 23 week mark of development) for anywhere from 35%-50% survival rate.

And finally, as far as clinical death is concerned, it includes cessation of heartbeat, breathing, and brain activity - so for comparison, you could say clinical life involves the following: an embryo's heart starts beating around week 9, brain stem formed around week 7 and controlling body function through around week 9, and it appears breathing-like movements pick up within about the next 7 weeks.

Take care.
edit on 9/6/2011 by Praetorius because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 07:06 PM
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reply to post by watchitburn
 


On that note, if a child is born and has complications do you believe the doctors should try to help it survive or just let nature run its course?



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 07:11 PM
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reply to post by watchitburn
 
Tought answer there friend (no worries, no hate or ridicule here).

I am curious as to your thoughts on the severely mentally-handicapped, comatose, and so forth, however. Additionally, you mention when a child is able to survive outside its mother, but at what point can a child actually start caring for itself on its own and survive?

Much grey area there, although on some levels I can't fault the reasoning. I frequently hear people call the "pre-born" parasites, but I also hear about a lot of people in society who think they and/or others can't survive without getting something from others, so would they qualify as well?
Oddly, people don't have any problem thinking we should be responsible for then, although the same courtesy isn't extended to the prenatal.

Just food for thought given the discussions and arguments I've heard, not picking at you here.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 07:40 PM
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reply to post by MJZoo
 


Same here with my three boys. Hearing it was ok but to actually SEE it beating was an awsome experiance.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 07:44 PM
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reply to post by Quadrivium
 


unique life begins at conception

independent, ambulitory life begins at 'birth' either natural or augmented (premature/cesearian) births



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 07:52 PM
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I think the scientific / medical answer is clear, the process of life begins upon successful fertilization, and interestingly there seems to be areas of the law that support this, for example someone that injures a pregnant female causing the termination of the pregnancy is held responsible for the death of a child even if the mother is in the earliest stages of pregnancy.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 07:56 PM
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As I said -


when the child is biologically capable of surviving outside of the mother.


Once the child is born, the mother is no longer necessary. Another person can take care of the kid.

I think for disabled or handicapped children. If the mother is not capable of caring for the kid (due to drug addiction or mental illness or whatever) And no family members choose to raise it.

Then yes, let nature take it's course. And by that I mean, drug the kid so it goes to sleep and doesn't wake up.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 08:03 PM
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I would say human life begins at conception. Being in a large society, we all stay dependent upon each other our entire lives. Even in retirement, those who have saved all their lives depend upon others to keep our currency and our savings that is based in dollars to be worth something to use to survive and buy food and drugs. We all count on someone keeping power going to the hundreds of nuclear facilities all over the country and the world. If too many of them lost power and no one was maintaining the cooling effect, the world would become a dead hostile radioactive world. Life as we used to know it would be over and it would be a struggle for anyone to survive unless they already had a deep underground bunker and could survive in it for a long long time.

Even if you think you can survive on your own, that could all change quick if an army of several thousand decided they wanted what you have. A baby is dependent on it's mother. A kid is dependent on it's guardians or parents. Adults are dependent upon a functioning society maintaining some type of order to buy and sell what we need and to maintain a liveable environment. Others may be needed to help provide for a common defense. We stay dependent upon others from the moment of conception to our death.
edit on 6/9/11 by orionthehunter because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 08:17 PM
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Originally posted by Praetorius
Much grey area there, although on some levels I can't fault the reasoning. I frequently hear people call the "pre-born" parasites, but I also hear about a lot of people in society who think they and/or others can't survive without getting something from others, so would they qualify as well?
Oddly, people don't have any problem thinking we should be responsible for then, although the same courtesy isn't extended to the prenatal.


You are talking about the welfare state here?

I have 2 brothers I call "Oxygen Thieves" Both go to school(allegedly) and live on the tax-payers dime. Both have been to jail multiple times for failing to pay child support on multiple kids to multiple women.

Now, they are both perfectly capable of supporting themselves, they have no physical or mental ailments stopping them. But they made bad choices and didn't think through the repercussions. Instead of taking responsibility and working hard to make the best of their situations they choose to live off the Govt.

Everyone's life is what they Choose to make of it. I have no pity for the poor, homeless, or starving people of this world. All I see is a lack of desire to make their life better. I see people who have Chosen to accept their lot in life. Essentially they have given up.

I have no use for them. That's just my opinion.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 09:27 PM
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Originally posted by ModernAcademia
I think you are asking when does life become a sentient being
Am I correct?
HMMMMMMM, not so much. I have met some folks that have been alive for years but not sure I would call them sentinel beings even now.
Just kidding, no I actually ment the point at which a human life begins, conscious or otherwise.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 09:32 PM
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Life is. Doesn't have a beginning or an end.



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