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Question for Atheists

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posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 02:05 AM
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Well johnsky certainly gave me food for thought but now I can't help but wonder if we might actually be able to evolve to the point of evolveing into the afterlife.
maybe the soul is not a given but something thats earned through evolution.




posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 02:10 AM
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reply to post by adraves
 


See, most of my Atheist friends went the opposite route, they started out devoutly religious (or just never really questioned it), and one day realized, "wait a minute, somethings not right here".

... many who come to the realization that I have had a hard time with the concept that they will cease to exist, it's like a living nightmare to them. It was to me.

But they're faced with a choice.
1: Continue exploring the realization and face the fears that many people simply cannot function with, yes, this tends to leave you a bit more cynical in the end.
...or
2: comfort themselves with the faith that there is an afterlife, repressing whatever they may have found which assisted in the decision to turn from their faith in the first place.

I've consoled ALOT of people in this transition. I don't know why so many manage to fall into my lap, but that's the way the coin flips I suppose.
They usually cry a bit, asking if this is really all there is.
Then it's like a damn switch is thrown, they either find beauty in their realization, or they somehow shove the very thing that shook their faith into the deep recesses of the mind and become almost violent when reminded of them.

It's abundantly clear to me that religion is used by the mind as a self protection mechanism. Those who can't cope without it become violent toward the memory of the realization just to protect itself.

That, at least, is how it works moving from Religion to Atheism.
The other way around, who knows.
I began spiritual... couldn't let myself face the possibility of non-existence for the longest time.
Eventually, I just forced myself to contemplate both possibilities, came to a realization.

It wasn't easy... it was, like for those I've consoled... a living freaking nightmare... until it all started to make a beautiful sort of sense. Cold, but beautiful.


And now I REALLY AM off to bed.
edit on 6-9-2011 by johnsky because: night



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 02:46 AM
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Originally posted by johnsky


I have had many fall in my lap and ask for advice as well. I guess we just influence people in different ways. I was atheist, now I am agnostic. I was more religious, became atheist, and then agnostic. It was a slow progression. Atheism was an easy leap for me, but agnosticism was more difficult. I liked my cold hard reality of it all.

I cannot say if there is an afterlife. I don't think there is one in a sense. If there is, we will never know it, and might as well give up the notion (that is a tenant of god in agnosticism). No one is reborn to tell their tales, we are all forgotten.

Live life like you will die tomorrow and will never be remembered. You don't matter in the long run. We put daily stresses on ourselves; we are conditioned for it. That doesn't mean it matters. Moving on...

Personally, I searched long and hard for some answers in all the right (philosophy) and wrong (I will not speak of it) places. I came out of it an agnostic. If I had to be cold, hard and logical about it, I would still be an atheist.

In the end choosing to believe that this life is all we have is a lot easier than choosing a life not really knowing. It is a nice place to sit mentally, but can we ever truly know? Either way, both choices are correct. Life is a ride, and when you leave it no one will remember you. Well, maybe for a little while, but not forever.

It does make a cold beautiful sort of sense in that way, but we will never know what comes after. It is what drives many of us to search for answers.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 03:54 AM
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Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by Raivan31
 



I believe in a god, but the god I believe in is a group conciousness consisting of every mind to have ever been


You do realise that is the basis of the Rosicrucians beliefs?

I suggest you go and look them up.

Atheists do not believe in God. End of story. I actually never realised what a cult Atheism is in the US. It is not Atheism at all, it is a religion.


Something a bit more in tune with the development on this forum would have been more convincing for your 'cause'. Dusting off old, dead chestnuts (always ending in semantic blind-alley quibbles) is increasingly being recognized as pure 'tactical' maneuvers, no matter where they come from.

An addition: Some of your later posts milden this impression somewhat, so don't take this as a frontal attack.
edit on 6-9-2011 by bogomil because: addition



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 04:04 AM
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Originally posted by randomname

atheists still live in exile. they fear to find God. but the choice to experience His existence is clear and is always there.


edit on 5-9-2011 by randomname because: (no reason given)

Says who, you ? How can I possibly "fear to find" something which does not exist. There is no God but some people need a crutch to help them through life because they are not strong enough on their own. Fine not a problem, whatever helps you.

If you are having doubts about your faith then face them but don't attack the messenger!

People only attack what they fear and an awful lot of posts here on ATS suggests a lot of doubt amongst the faithful ! This thread is a prime example of the fear and doubt that the OP has



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 04:06 AM
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Originally posted by randomname

Originally posted by alfa1

Originally posted by Raivan31
A question for the Atheists. so you don't believe in a god at all



Much the same as you.
YOU dont believe in thousands of different gods that humans have invented.
Whats the problem with just one more?

Ask yourself why you dont believe in Quetzalcoatl at all.
Thats your answer.


quetzalcoatl was one civilizations attempt to locate God. they were lost, just like the rest of humanity, after the exile from the Garden of Eden.

the Garden of Eden was earth. it was the complete and perfect harmony between man and God. the exile was the loss of direct knowledge and His presence.

we are in disharmony with God. if we were in harmony with God, there would be no such thing as sins and laws.

life would be perfection. we would be incapable of sinning because we would have no knowledge of what a sin is.

that is why until God chose the jewish people to reveal himself, all over the globe people worshipped many things in the hope one of them was God.

the death of Jesus completes God's act of forgiveness. the ability to connect to God has been restored.

atheists still live in exile. they fear to find God. but the choice to experience His existence is clear and is always there.

this is the Faith.



edit on 5-9-2011 by randomname because: (no reason given)


It's difficult to see your purpose with this post. Are you presenting your own position or that of some christians' ?

If it's your own, it's just a sermon straight out of the mythological manual, a counter-point to OP, but without much relevance.

Ending it with: "This is the faith", doesn't make it housebroken at all. Just more confusing.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 04:11 AM
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Originally posted by Raivan31
reply to post by NeoVain
 


would you consider the possibility that god is a technical term for a system or structure that may or may not possess a mind that a human would recognize?

I personally think that virtually all religions are the equivalent result to how one explains sex and reproduction to a child, ie: Not to be taken %100 literally but sufficient to keep the basic concepts in play till more experience can be gained.
Don't mock the religious any more then you would mock the child because it wont help anyone to move forward.


It doesn't help anyone to 'move forward' to have speculative fantasies dished out as 'truth' concerning the unknown.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 04:52 AM
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reply to post by johnsky
 


You wrote:

["In Jazz, there's no conductor. Nobody "wrote" the piece. Each musician works off what they hear from the others, and vice versa, resulting in a sway from chaos to order to chaos to order, back and forth, as each musician does something unexpected and the rest then react to the new pattern and re-harmonize and re-sync again."]

A very good allegory describing the situation, and suggesting where the 'cutting edge' should be (but isn't because of simplistic and invasive doctrinalism) between theism and non-theism.

I 'blame' it.....insofar I've understood her...together with the contributor Annee, on the missionary christians, who want extra-parliamentary privileges.

But there are sensible christians, you can have a dialogue with above the black/white level.



edit on 6-9-2011 by bogomil because: typo



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 05:02 AM
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Cancelled
edit on 6-9-2011 by bogomil because: edited



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 06:17 AM
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reply to post by PuterMan
 

Only in the United States? Dawkins is the one that introduced the OUT campaign that started using the red A as a logo.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 07:29 AM
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reply to post by Raivan31
 


look intelligent design is always a possibility, but when people make up specific gods with all these rules and conditions i feel there is no need for that in our society
why cant people be happy to say that its possible we have been intelligently designed but we don’t know so why speculate..
plus why should something that has no evidence has such an effect on the world?

statistically its impossible that your specific god is real, but its a lot more probable that 'someone or something' created the universe or life..



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 07:53 AM
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Originally posted by UniverSoul
reply to post by Raivan31
 


look intelligent design is always a possibility, but when people make up specific gods with all these rules and conditions i feel there is no need for that in our society
why cant people be happy to say that its possible we have been intelligently designed but we don’t know so why speculate..
plus why should something that has no evidence has such an effect on the world?

statistically its impossible that your specific god is real, but its a lot more probable that 'someone or something' created the universe or life..


The concept 'intelligent design' belongs rationally to the same group of 'agnostic' positions as any other theist claim (except for the cases, where it's possible to reject a theist claim in a 'reality-check').



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 07:54 AM
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A message to all people religious or not .....If anyone sorted this murderous world out....I would thank YOU not your God.....actions speak louder than words.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 07:58 AM
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Originally posted by Raivan31
A question for the Atheists. so you don't believe in a god at all or is it more the concept of intelligent creation? because I believe in a god, but the god I believe in is a group conciousness consisting of every mind to have ever been and I don't believe in intelligent creation from the very begining of time but rather as something that has evolved over time to influence the minds that exist in it. I call the structure of the universe the body of god and the collective conciousness of all things the mind of god, god was born into a system that developed in relation to god and as god developed it began to manipulate and influence the system.

Sacred geometry has alot to do with me developing this theory as it would suggest a system for the structure of everything including god. I see god as the catalyst of the universe but not the active creator, at least not to begin with.

Another further question is: don't you feel that there is more to our universe then just it's physical structure?




answer to first question:
I'm an atheist.
I don't believe in a god, not even in your version of it
one of the benefits of being an atheist is that one doesn't have to come up with that dreadful "for me, god is...".

answer to second question:
I'm a non-institutionalized scientist
it would be utterly stupid to "believe" there's only those things explained by science as we speak, for a number of reasons. One such reason is that science is a play of progressive insight: what we don't know today, we might know tomorrow only to understand the day after tomorrow our model is false and needs an update.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 08:21 AM
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reply to post by NeverSleepingEyes
 


You wrote:

["One such reason is that science is a play of progressive insight: what we don't know today, we might know tomorrow only to understand the day after tomorrow our model is false and needs an update."]

I would like to add though, that even in the 'soft' social sciences, there are basics, which aren't likely to change. (No condescension intended, my own education is with social sciences too).

I only mention this, because theists sometimes can be very eager to postulate, that science overall fluctuates constantly.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by Raivan31
A question for the Atheists. so you don't believe in a god at all or is it more the concept of intelligent creation?


I don't believe in a God at all. Intelligent creation is a different subject. I don't think we know enough to form a conclusion about an 'intelligence' that had something to do with the way we evolved. To me, clearly there is some form of 'intelligence' going on, but not in the religious sense of 'intelligent design'.



Another further question is: don't you feel that there is more to our universe then just it's physical structure?


Absolutely, I do.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 08:58 AM
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Call me a materialist but I am amused by the people in this thread talking about god in a matter of fact way, when the truth is that it's nothing more than speculation, wishful thinking and in some cases, outright fantasy. Faith is not proof. Faith is the acceptance of something that has no proof.

I find these ramblings to be disingenuous at best.


IRM



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 09:04 AM
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I don't understand why people want to label one thing with a new label, when it already has a name. The Universe is the Universe. Consciousness is consciousness. Why call them something different? That's like me buying a cat from a pet store, but telling everyone else it's a dog.
edit on 6-9-2011 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 09:19 AM
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Originally posted by Hydroman
I don't understand why people want to label one thing with a new label, when it already has a name. The Universe is the Universe. Consciousness is consciousness. Why call them something different? That's like me buying a cat from a pet store, but telling everyone else its a dog.


Generally I agree with you. I find these increasingly more complex semantic games around pushing some types of theism annoying.

If the product was rejected the first time, it's cheap and intellectually dishonest to re-wrap it and try again. Sometimes I get the feeling, that scholasticism is on its way to a revival with all the semantic excesses.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by Raivan31
reply to post by randyvs
 


Well I've said my piece, basically what i believe is most probable is this: first there was a mind it's presence created an environment so it explored it's environment and the environment responded by expanding.


I agree with you - sort of. At least along the same lines.

But - - I will not call it god.

First there was energy. I believe everything is energy. That consciousness/intelligence evolved from energy.

I think humans/earth are layers and layers and layers multiplied removed from the first consciousness and physical creation.

I think the War in Heaven was probably a real war between power/political off planet beings. I think the Olympian Gods - Greek Gods of Mt. Olympus - Zeus, Dionysus, Hermes, Poseidon, Apollo, Ares, Jupiter, Bacchus, Mercury, Neptune, and Mars - - - is probably based in the reality of more advanced/evolved off-planet beings.

I think life on earth is pretty low on the totem pole of both natural evolution and terraforming and DNA manipulation.



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