What Does Abortion Have To Do With Pro-Choice?

Originally posted by e11888

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by e11888

 

Who will suffer more? A man whole offspring is killed (which he didnt even wanted or considered a few weeks ago), or woman who have to carry the child against their will?

According to my morality, which seeks to minimize suffering, the answer is clear.

There is no right to have offspring, but there is a right to bodily integrity.

Bodily integrity by killing another human being.... even against the father's demand? Seriously? am I even having this conversation with someone in 2011 or are we in nazi germany?

hey e888111, when will you please understand that a embryo is NOT a human being ???
it is a embryo,a potentiallity that can become a human being when it gets love and all the rest untill birth ..
always compare with nazi politics, has nothing to do with nazi man !!!

but I see where you come from, you would like us to consider women in despair and with great difficulties to be nazis !!!
so that is YOUR idea about all those beautiful and nice women around us that have this kind of very difficult choice to make for themselves ???
nice man you are !!! chapeau monsieur !!
but the man, he is always like a angel, oh so sweet gentle and without any fault .... come on, you make me ....

Originally posted by Sunlionspirit
hey e888111, when will you please understand that a embryo is NOT a human being ???

The second the courts stop charging people with double murder when a pregnant woman is killed.

reply to post by e11888


Yes, that is another absurdity that needs to be fixed. Murder of a woman with fetus before abortion limit should not be considered double murder.

reply to post by jeramie


This might blow your mind but you know those things we call wars?

People die, whether they're soldiers or civilians.

Isn't that murder too? I don't see you complaining about war but yet, you say that abortion is murder.

You know what else is murder? A jury of peers deciding that one must lose their life as punishment for taking another life.

I don't see you complaining about the death penalty, yet you say that abortion is murder.

I could go on and on and on.

Where are the rational, free-thinking people on ATS? Where did they go and when were they replaced with political and religious shills?

reply to post by Maslo
What I do not understand is how bacteria in space can be viewed as life by the same person that does not view a tiny looking person growing inside a big person as life. Neither breathe as we understand it yet both likely grow and change as they develop.

How can one be alive, the other not?

Originally posted by e11888

Originally posted by Sunlionspirit

Originally posted by e11888
reply to post by Sunlionspirit

 

What?! I as a man have no right to my child because I must worship the ground a woman walks on? Thats basically what I got out of your post.

I try to understand what you mean .... ( I am french, not american .. )
so you mean in theory that you make love to your wife, you take responsability and your wife also with contraception but she gets pregnant ... accident ...
so you would like to keep that child but she wants to take it away ???
is it that kind of story ?
so first I wonder you did not discuss this with your wife before making love, if she really does not want to have a baby then you together would have taken much more precautions no ???
and if she wants anyway to take it away, to have abortion, well I think you can try to show her that you will be a carefull father and sustain her in this difficult period ... don't know exactly what you mean man ...
don't know why she would refuse your baby together .... if it's a love baby ...

The problem is not all babies are created by married couples. Some are accidents. Either the woman didnt take the pill or the man didnt use a condom. It doesnt matter whos fault it is the point is a human life was created and its 50% of the father and 50% of the mother regardless of who has to carry it. Point is it still the fathers child. He was needed to create it. It took 2 human beings to create 1 human life and it should take both to destroy it. Not just one.

I understand the woman has carry the child. I understand that she could even die in child birth. But it is also her responsibility to use birth control just as much as it is the man's and if the man that created his child wants it to live, the woman has no right to kill his child that he helped to create.

but why should she kill the child that they together did consider could happen when making love to each other ??
the terrible ( for the woman ) idea of abortion comes only to her spirit if she is left alone without the father
( irresponsible or unknown or cowardly gone .. ) or after rape or incest, when there are serious medical or psychological problems .....
pregnancy is the women's "job", it's a great job, but she must be sustained and feel the love around her and around the baby otherwise it can go very bad !!!
a man who does NOT love his wife or a man that did violate her or with other lack-of-love situations, has nothing at all to say about her pregnancy, about nothing anyway to her !! He just is a cowardly bast*** !!
why should that kind of man have something to tell to those women ??

Originally posted by Cinaed
reply to post by Maslo

 

What I do not understand is how bacteria in space can be viewed as life by the same person that does not view a tiny looking person growing inside a big person as life. Neither breathe as we understand it yet both likely grow and change as they develop.

How can one be alive, the other not?

I dont think anyone claims fetus is not life. I mean, what is it, rocks? Of course it is alive. But we do not protect all life. I think there is nothing wrong with killing unsentient life, if it benefits sentient life. Fetus is alive just like plants are alive. We do not prosecute plant killing as murder, do we?

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by e11888

 

Yes, that is another absurdity that needs to be fixed. Murder of a woman with fetus before abortion limit should not be considered double murder.

attention please : be carefull here !!!
as we said before and repeat all times : a woman that is pregnant and absolutely WANTS that baby is considering her embryo as her futur son or daughter, doesn't matter.
So she is loving it as her futur child, for her it is HER and HIS futur, it's not yet a person but it's becoming HER son or daughter so she considers this embryo as a person because she loves it and she wants to be a real mother !!
so, yes here we can say that when you murder the pregnant woman you also murder the fruit of her love and her futur baby, because she herself considers that embryo as her futur child !!!
a woman that wants to have abortion does NOT feel that embryo as her child, she does not feel herself as a mother in spe, she feels it is something like a cancer that has to be taken away !!!!!
a mother that loves her baby doesn't think the same !! difficult to understand, yes !!

reply to post by Sunlionspirit

If I understand your points correctly you are saying when it comes to a fetus, the woman gets to play God, but a judge in a court of law may not, the father of the child may not... the parents of the girl may not...

I believe in women's rights and want them to have equal rights, but it sounds to me like you are saying women have superior rights? Over parents, partners and the law?

something is either alive or it isn't, individuals should not be able to hodge podge decide about life depending on their mood

I am a woman and if I feel a dog is alive and it is dead, I can not make it live. If the dog is alive it IS alive, the only way I can make it not alive is to kill it.
This makes ZERO sense to me

My point being there needs to be a legal standard. To say this woman feels her fetus is not life at 9 weeks but another woman feels her fetus is not alive until `14 weeks totally devalues the life of the fetus entirely. I want abortion to stay legal but I do not think women should have the power to *play God* depending on a whim. Far too many women are using abortion to deal with irresponsibility and inconvenience.

Reply to post by Sunlionspirit

Just because she considers it HER future child does not make it a child at the present moment. The law needs to be changed.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by e11888

Originally posted by Sunlionspirit
hey e888111, when will you please understand that a embryo is NOT a human being ???

The second the courts stop charging people with double murder when a pregnant woman is killed.

but for the mother in spe who really wants that baby, her murdering is also the murdering of his and her futur because that mother wants to give it birth ....
it's difficult I know, but in fact it's simple : if the mother wants the baby with love and tenderness then it is MURDER to take away her pregnancy ( so mind it is taken away by somebody ELSE !! not herself ), but if the mother takes away her own embryo because pregnancy not possible, no lovechild, then it cannot be consider as a murder by her ( and surely not by us !!! ).
It's all about POTENTIAL human life, you cannot murder a potentiallity but you can murder a mother having that potentiallity in her and wanting to give birth and for the mother that embryo is already a person in her mind, it's her child.

so let's go intellectual :
- so you kill a woman : you are a g*d damned killer
- you kill a pregnant woman, a mother who wants and loves that coming baby : you kill her and her love in the womb, her futur baby, so you kill 2 !
- you kill a woman that wants to have a abortion ? you still are a killer but maybe you then can say that you only killed one person because that embryo was NOT accepted as a futur baby.
But who are you or who are we to know if it was a woman that wanted abortion that the killer killed ..... he didn't know even I think ... but the law is the law, there must be justice done to the family of the mother, to the killed mother and to the baby in her womb, to the father left alone and who lost his wanted child ....

Originally posted by Cinaed
reply to post by Sunlionspirit

 

If I understand your points correctly you are saying when it comes to a fetus, the woman gets to play God, but a judge in a court of law may not, the father of the child may not... the parents of the girl may not...

I believe in women's rights and want them to have equal rights, but it sounds to me like you are saying women have superior rights? Over parents, partners and the law?

something is either alive or it isn't, individuals should not be able to hodge podge decide about life depending on their mood

I am a woman and if I feel a dog is alive and it is dead, I can not make it live. If the dog is alive it IS alive, the only way I can make it not alive is to kill it.
This makes ZERO sense to me

My point being there needs to be a legal standard. To say this woman feels her fetus is not life at 9 weeks but another woman feels her fetus is not alive until `14 weeks totally devalues the life of the fetus entirely. I want abortion to stay legal but I do not think women should have the power to *play God* depending on a whim. Far too many women are using abortion to deal with irresponsibility and inconvenience.

edit on 9/8/11 by Cinaed because: to add an afterthought

edit on 9/8/11 by Cinaed because: (no reason given)

the woman does not play G-d, she is " playing " ( ... ) the VICTIM of a unwanted pregnancy !!
she is playing NOTHING, she is suffering, man !!!

Originally posted by e11888

Originally posted by Sunlionspirit
hey e888111, when will you please understand that a embryo is NOT a human being ???

The second the courts stop charging people with double murder when a pregnant woman is killed.

and why do you make a problem with that ??? will you kill a pregnant woman maybe and want to know what you will get ???
I do not understand where your problem is, you do not have to kill anybody you know
and the one who does kill well he gets what he deserves !!
why change your vision about all this only because the law is the law and if it changes then you change also ??

reply to post by Sunlionspirit


Perhaps if she had been more conscientious and responsible about her sexual activity she would not have the *unwanted* pregnancy. With all the birth control out there unwanted pregnancy can be avoided quite effectively over 95% of the time.

How about the woman that has 3 unwanted pregnancies, or 5? She is suffering? I would submit she is lazy and irresponsible and has no regard for human life.

reply to post by Sunlionspirit


The fundamental state and rights (or their absence) of the embryo cannot depend on the feelings of something outside, thats just illogical. And potential, as we have shown, is not relevant at all, only actuality, otherwise refusing sex is murder.
Either something has a full right to live at the time of the killing (then its murder), or it has not, and then killing it may be classified as harming health, property damage etc.. but NOT murder. Only already existing persons can be murdered.

Originally posted by Cinaed
reply to post by Sunlionspirit

 

Perhaps if she had been more conscientious and responsible about her sexual activity she would not have the *unwanted* pregnancy. With all the birth control out there unwanted pregnancy can be avoided quite effectively over 95% of the time.

How about the woman that has 3 unwanted pregnancies, or 5? She is suffering? I would submit she is lazy and irresponsible and has no regard for human life.

may I ask : are you a woman ?? if yes, it's nice to see how you understand your fellow sisters ( = big sarcasm of course !!! )
if you are a man, then well maybe one day you will understand woman's problems ....
I am a man but I consider women as equal to me but still much more in danger in this stupid actual neo-capitalist neo-liberal $$$ greedy society where the conservativ powers do not want to help anybody in trouble, no man nor woman, just all power and luxurious life for them only, not for the poor in trouble nor the woman in despair nor the men without work and with no food for their children !!! CRAZY NEO-CAPITALISM the root of all evil !!

reply to post by Sunlionspirit


I am a woman. I am glad abortion is legal. I am glad a woman violated can get an abortion or safe guard her health if she has medical issues. I am even glad a woman can get an abortion when those accidents happen and even though she was responsible the undesired outcome prevailed.

I do not believe in the same accident happening multiple times in a woman's life. Where is her accountability for her behavior?

I am think it is very wrong to relieve a woman of all personal responsibility in her sexual activity.

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Sunlionspirit

 

The fundamental state and rights (or their absence) of the embryo cannot depend on the feelings of something outside, thats just illogical. And potential, as we have shown, is not relevant at all, only actuality, otherwise refusing sex is murder.
Either something has a full right to live at the time of the killing (then its murder), or it has not, and then killing it may be classified as harming health, property damage etc.. but NOT murder. Only already existing persons can be murdered.

yes you are right, only existing persons can be murdered !!
but for a mother waiting for her baby that baby is her futur person son or daughter, so for her the potentiallity is already a person in her mind !!!!
and the law must be clear in all circumstances, the law must be just, I don't know why the law should not consider this as a double murder ?
the killer is a stranger ( or not a stranger ... ) killing mother and pregnancy !

when abortion, the mother is not killing herself that I know, she is killing the not wanted, not possible baby out of her OWN body !! can you kill something into yourself ???
but she can kill her child just after it is born, that happens also, then of course it is murder.

Originally posted by Cinaed
reply to post by Sunlionspirit

 

I am a woman. I am glad abortion is legal. I am glad a woman violated can get an abortion or safe guard her health if she has medical issues. I am even glad a woman can get an abortion when those accidents happen and even though she was responsible the undesired outcome prevailed.

I do not believe in the same accident happening multiple times in a woman's life. Where is her accountability for her behavior?

I am think it is very wrong to relieve a woman of all personal responsibility in her sexual activity.

do you really really think woman do that for pleasure ??? like going to the dentist ??
4 or 5 times in their life ???
and if they do well then they are really very stupid yes of course ...
but who am I to tell them and to judge them ....
stupids always will exist, pitty but also reality ....

and à propos : where is HIS accountability for HIS behavior? forgotten the man in the story ?? the one that can so cowardly go away and leave the woman alone with her pregnancy and problems ...

reply to post by Sunlionspirit


I also think it is wrong the man does not have a voice in the decision for abortion because he certainly has a legal obligation if the child is born. Whether he willing accepts it is entirely another story, but if he is proven the father he is LEGALLY obligated to support the child. Even though he has no voice if the woman wants to kill his child.