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What Does Abortion Have To Do With Pro-Choice?

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posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 04:29 AM
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Everyone has a choice about what happens to their own body.

Including pregnancy.


So if you are pregnant, and you don't want it, abortion is an option.




posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 05:04 AM
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Originally posted by Fretless
What needs to be decided is at what point does a fetus become independant life and not part of the mother. Afterall a fetus is attached to the mother, the same blood and nutrients flow through the two. For a time they are essentially the same being. So why should a woman not have this choice to affect her own body? Maybe the only other influencing factor should be the father who has also contributed a part of himself to the new growth.
To decide wether the abortion of a child should be the choice of a mother or not requires defining independent life which is a highly philosophical issue and this website is testement to conflicting philosophies and the freedom to act on them.
I believe that humans like all other organisms are purposed through instinct to survive and prosper as a species. From this standpoint it's understandable how to some the abortion of a fetus is an unthinkable thing to do as it goes against some of our most basic instincts. But choice gives us the ability to fight our instinct and act on our own beliefs, without this we would be restricted to what other people think is best for us and that could be far more dangerous.


abortion exists since the beginning of humanity
it's not a excuse I know
just like prostitution does ..
you can be pro or against it, it will still exist in the futur
but I have clearly to say : I do NOT the promotion of abortion, NOBODY IS PRO !!! that is a bad word to say : being pro abortion ..... but it's a pitty it's called like this, like you should be pro murdering .....
we prefer a world without abortion, without women that have to make such terrible decision ...
but we can understand it and we are totally aware that we have no right at all to JUDGE a woman doing it.
It is something very very very sad !!! but do never blame or judge a woman for it ! it's NONE of your bizness !!

And of course man have to take their whole own responsability also in contraception, they have to RESPECT woman and not violate them or raping or forcing or whatever ... but respect is no longer a value in this stupid $$$ greed world .... man are just big bast**rds sometimes, big machos, you know I am a man, but sometimes I feel very sad about other men's behaviour against women ....



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 05:23 AM
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reply to post by Wertwog
 


congratulations !! here you did say it like it has to be said and told !! Nice to see some people knowing what real life is all about ...
very well explained, within reality and not within the beatiful dreams of some people having phantasms and dreaming about big "morality" but not seeing the reality of our human hard living .....
it's just the same question like this one : if you kill somebody entering your home at night ( very american style no ??? ) do those people consider that this is also a murder then ?? should you let him continue entering your home and endanger yourself ?? no they will excuse the killer and say it was self defence..... but the burglar was killed no ?? so it's murder no ??
you can discuss it a whole day long, fact is that everybody considers this as a normal acceptable reaction ....
is it moral ?? that is not the question, it's reality and you have to live with it, it's just life and its terrible difficulties sometimes !!!




edit on 8-9-2011 by Sunlionspirit because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 05:32 AM
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reply to post by Sunlionspirit
 


What?! I as a man have no right to my child because I must worship the ground a woman walks on? Thats basically what I got out of your post.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 05:34 AM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 
I don't understand it either! What makes it even more confusing to me, very often the same *pro choice* individuals that do not consider a human fetus life, even after it looks just like a tiny person get extremely excited about bacteria on rocks or in space and hail it LIFE!!! We found LIFE in space!!! YAY

Doesn't make a lick of sense to me at all but I would love someone to explain it to me sometime




posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 05:34 AM
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Originally posted by catwhoknowsplusone
Everyone has a choice about what happens to their own body.

Including pregnancy.


So if you are pregnant, and you don't want it, abortion is an option.


The problem is you are also making the choice for another human body inside of your own human body. Do you understand this?

"This human body inside of me makes me look fat so lets just kill it"

...thats basically what your post said.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 05:41 AM
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Originally posted by e11888
reply to post by Sunlionspirit
 


What?! I as a man have no right to my child because I must worship the ground a woman walks on? Thats basically what I got out of your post.


I try to understand what you mean .... ( I am french, not american .. )
so you mean in theory that you make love to your wife, you take responsability and your wife also with contraception but she gets pregnant ... accident ...
so you would like to keep that child but she wants to take it away ???
is it that kind of story ?
so first I wonder you did not discuss this with your wife before making love, if she really does not want to have a baby then you together would have taken much more precautions no ???
and if she wants anyway to take it away, to have abortion, well I think you can try to show her that you will be a carefull father and sustain her in this difficult period ... don't know exactly what you mean man ...
don't know why she would refuse your baby together .... if it's a love baby ...



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 05:45 AM
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reply to post by loam
 


My view is probably extremely unpopular, and like you I do not arrive at it from a religious view even though I believe in God. I do not want abortion to be illegal but at the same time I do not believe women should be allowed to use abortion as a form of birth control for irresponsible sexual activity or personal convenience. Women having multiple abortions for convenience remind me of serial killers. A serial killer feels completely justified and has no regard for their victims.

I also believe if conception occurs through consensual sex the father should have some sort of say in the life of his child. He certainly will have a legal responsibility if the child is born. I don't think tax dollars should ever be spent on abortion unless a crime was committed to bring about conception or the health of the mother would be at stake if the pregnancy goes full term to birth.
edit on 8/9/11 by Cinaed because: accidently finger slipped to post before I was ready... I added something



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 05:47 AM
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Originally posted by Sunlionspirit

Originally posted by e11888
reply to post by Sunlionspirit
 


What?! I as a man have no right to my child because I must worship the ground a woman walks on? Thats basically what I got out of your post.


I try to understand what you mean .... ( I am french, not american .. )
so you mean in theory that you make love to your wife, you take responsability and your wife also with contraception but she gets pregnant ... accident ...
so you would like to keep that child but she wants to take it away ???
is it that kind of story ?
so first I wonder you did not discuss this with your wife before making love, if she really does not want to have a baby then you together would have taken much more precautions no ???
and if she wants anyway to take it away, to have abortion, well I think you can try to show her that you will be a carefull father and sustain her in this difficult period ... don't know exactly what you mean man ...
don't know why she would refuse your baby together .... if it's a love baby ...


The problem is not all babies are created by married couples. Some are accidents. Either the woman didnt take the pill or the man didnt use a condom. It doesnt matter whos fault it is the point is a human life was created and its 50% of the father and 50% of the mother regardless of who has to carry it. Point is it still the fathers child. He was needed to create it. It took 2 human beings to create 1 human life and it should take both to destroy it. Not just one.

I understand the woman has carry the child. I understand that she could even die in child birth. But it is also her responsibility to use birth control just as much as it is the man's and if the man that created his child wants it to live, the woman has no right to kill his child that he helped to create.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 05:50 AM
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Originally posted by Cinaed
reply to post by ModernAcademia
 
I don't understand it either! What makes it even more confusing to me, very often the same *pro choice* individuals that do not consider a human fetus life, even after it looks just like a tiny person get extremely excited about bacteria on rocks or in space and hail it LIFE!!! We found LIFE in space!!! YAY

Doesn't make a lick of sense to me at all but I would love someone to explain it to me sometime



Why does it not make sense to you?

Life on Earth is common, why should we get excited about some more life here?
On the other hand, life in space is not known yet, so naturally we should get excited if alien life is found.


edit on 8/9/11 by Maslo because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 05:50 AM
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Originally posted by Cinaed
reply to post by loam
 


My view is probably extremely unpopular, and like you I do not arrive at it from a religious view even though I believe in God. I do not want abortion to be illegal but at the same time I do not believe women should be allowed to use abortion as a form of birth control for irresponsible sexual activity. Women having multiple abortions for convenience remind me of serial killers. A serial killer feels completely justified and has no regard for their victims.

I also believe if conception occurs through consensual sex the father should have some sort of say in the life of his child. He certainly will have a legal responsibility if the child is born. I also do not believe tax dollars should ever be spent on abortion unless a crime was committed to bring about conception or the health of the mother would be at stake if the pregnancy goes full term to birth.


Why should women be able to use abortion as a birth control method when men have no such option? If I go out and get a female pregnant and she wants the child I as a man am forced to raise it or I will be thrown in prison. She was just as careless as I yet Im the scumbag? Why dont I as the man have the option to say I dont want this child born I helped to create it?



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 05:54 AM
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Originally posted by e11888

Originally posted by catwhoknowsplusone
Everyone has a choice about what happens to their own body.

Including pregnancy.


So if you are pregnant, and you don't want it, abortion is an option.


The problem is you are also making the choice for another human body inside of your own human body. Do you understand this?

"This human body inside of me makes me look fat so lets just kill it"

...thats basically what your post said.


it's NOT a body into your body, it's a foetus, a embryo, growing into HER body, like a cancer ( sorry for the comparaison and the irrespectfull expression ) - it's the mother's body having something growing into her, you cannot make it a " different " person out of it !!
she makes no choice for another person .... she makes a choice for HER own person, for herself, her health, her futur, her difficulties, her hope for better times or not ......
if she loves the baby she has in her womb well she never will think about abortion and will give it birth with joy and love
but if that baby is like a cancer for her, no love because not wanted first of all, then she has all rights to do with her body what she wants, what do you have to care about her womb ?? are you a priest or Jesus maybe ? is she your slave or what ? what right do YOU have over her body ?? and what right do YOU have over that embryo anyway ??? is it your embryo ?? well take it and give it birth yourself then but you know pretty well that is impossible of course and that is just the easiest way for all those that want to forbid abortion !!!
they have to take NO responsability at all never, they just talk and talk and judge and judge poor women who are in real trouble !! SHAME !!!



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 05:57 AM
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reply to post by e11888
 


Who will suffer more? A man whole offspring is killed (which he didnt even wanted or considered a few weeks ago), or woman who have to carry the child against their will?

According to my morality, which seeks to minimize suffering, the answer is clear.

There is no right to have offspring, but there is a right to bodily integrity.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 05:57 AM
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reply to post by Sunlionspirit
 


I as the father SHOULD have every right to my child and the simple act of abortion without the fathers consent is murder especially when the father states that he will raise the child. This whole idea that "life isnt life unless the female says its life" is bullcrap and yet Im the one being the control freak? Grow up dude.

Let me tell you something buddy. The day that woman can put a child into their stomach on their own is the day they will have full control of it. It took two people to create that child and it should take those same two people to destroy it.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 05:58 AM
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Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by e11888
 


Who will suffer more? A man whole offspring is killed (which he didnt even wanted or considered a few weeks ago), or woman who have to carry the child against their will?

According to my morality, which seeks to minimize suffering, the answer is clear.

There is no right to have offspring, but there is a right to bodily integrity.


Bodily integrity by killing another human being.... even against the father's demand? Seriously? am I even having this conversation with someone in 2011 or are we in nazi germany?



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 06:00 AM
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reply to post by e11888
 


Yes, I agree that this is also not right, but the solution is not to force woman, but remove force from man. If the man declares that he does not want the child while abortion is still an option, and woman refuses to abort, its clear its only her who wants the child. In such case man should have a right to opt out of child support entirely.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 06:01 AM
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Originally posted by Cinaed
reply to post by loam
 


My view is probably extremely unpopular, and like you I do not arrive at it from a religious view even though I believe in God. I do not want abortion to be illegal but at the same time I do not believe women should be allowed to use abortion as a form of birth control for irresponsible sexual activity or personal convenience. Women having multiple abortions for convenience remind me of serial killers. A serial killer feels completely justified and has no regard for their victims.

I also believe if conception occurs through consensual sex the father should have some sort of say in the life of his child. He certainly will have a legal responsibility if the child is born. I don't think tax dollars should ever be spent on abortion unless a crime was committed to bring about conception or the health of the mother would be at stake if the pregnancy goes full term to birth.
edit on 8/9/11 by Cinaed because: accidently finger slipped to post before I was ready... I added something


for women (in distress) abortion is NEVER and will never be a kind of birth control !!!
do you really think woman consider abortion as a pleasant thing, as some kind of plastic surgery, something easy to go thru ??? do you rally think that ??
that she says : well now today I take a risk but next month well if I am pregnant I will just go and get a abortion ?? like going to the dentist ?
man man man, I think she prefers everything else to not get pregnant but if accident happens, well then comes the big question for her : yes or no for the saddest and last possible cruel intervention .....



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 06:01 AM
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Originally posted by e11888

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by e11888
 


Who will suffer more? A man whole offspring is killed (which he didnt even wanted or considered a few weeks ago), or woman who have to carry the child against their will?

According to my morality, which seeks to minimize suffering, the answer is clear.

There is no right to have offspring, but there is a right to bodily integrity.


Bodily integrity by killing another human being.... even against the father's demand? Seriously? am I even having this conversation with someone in 2011 or are we in nazi germany?


A fetus is not a being, it has no rights. I was speaking about the rights of already existing persons.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 06:02 AM
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Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by e11888
 


Yes, I agree that this is also not right, but the solution is not to force woman, but remove force from man. If the man declares that he does not want the child while abortion is still an option, and woman refuses to abort, its clear its only her who wants the child. In such case man should have a right to opt out of child support entirely.


I agree and this should be done. But if I as the father of the child want my child to be born the woman has no right to kill it because it would still be half my child. It is murder. Once the child is born if the woman doesnt want it and the father does he will take care of it. But if both agree they dont want a child then abortion can be done but only if both that created it agree to destroy it.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 06:05 AM
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Originally posted by Maslo

Originally posted by e11888

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by e11888
 


Who will suffer more? A man whole offspring is killed (which he didnt even wanted or considered a few weeks ago), or woman who have to carry the child against their will?

According to my morality, which seeks to minimize suffering, the answer is clear.

There is no right to have offspring, but there is a right to bodily integrity.


Bodily integrity by killing another human being.... even against the father's demand? Seriously? am I even having this conversation with someone in 2011 or are we in nazi germany?


A fetus is not a being, it has no rights. I was speaking about the rights of already existing persons.


A fetus is not a being and it has no rights? Is that why when a pregnant woman is murdered the killer is charged for 2 murders? The court seems to think the fetus is a being why dont you?




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