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What Does Abortion Have To Do With Pro-Choice?

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posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by Kitilani
So ATS seems pretty chock full of virgin men that have a lot to say about my womb.


...i wonder if freud would say they have womb-envy...




posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by Kitilani
Dearest Wookiep,

Please forgive me for hurting you so by not taking the time to respond to things that were not relevant or addressed to me. I see from your 5 posts crying about it, probably 6 now, that it really really bothered you. I would really like you to get over it. Ok?


Originally posted by Wookiep
reply to post by Janky Red
 


I don't know why politics always has to creep it's way in to everything. Why can't people just have a good discussion anymore?


Already answered so let me move on to the rest of the post to SOMEONE ELSE about OTHER THINGS and respond so you can shut the hell up about it. 5 friggin posts. Jesus.


Also, in all fairness when it comes to "entitlements" no-one is blaming the kids. It's the parents that need to stop expecting hand-outs. It's the parents that need to take responsibility and be accountable for their actions. Stop whining and DO something about it. If parents did just those 2 things from the start, there would be far, far less abortions and we prolly wouldn't even be having this discussion. Think about it.
edit on 6-9-2011 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)


Lot's of empty words that have nothing to do with the politics question, anything else I addressed, or anything I was discussing. That was to Janky Red and not me and I am certain he did answer it for you. None of the rest of this applies to anything. I answered your question about politics. I am not sure what kind of response you want to the rest of your speech but there, I QUOTED IT AND RESPONDED TO IT.
Now go take a break.


Thank you dearest Kitilani, and thanks for staying on topic. Sorry to you and Janky! Please send your family my best wishes, please take care good kind ma'am!

edit on 6-9-2011 by Wookiep because: Ma'am



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:32 PM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 


...if what you're yappin about tonight is indicative of what you're learning in college, someone is seriously wasting their money...



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:33 PM
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Originally posted by Wookiep
Thank you dearest Kitilani, and thanks for staying on topic. Sorry to you and Janky! Please send your family my best wishes, please take care good kind sir!

edit on 6-9-2011 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)


Sir?

Now I get it.
Yeah, kitty is a pretty funny guys name.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by Wyn Hawks

Originally posted by Kitilani
So ATS seems pretty chock full of virgin men that have a lot to say about my womb.


...i wonder if freud would say they have womb-envy...





Either that or men just do not know where not to stick their noses when not invited.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:35 PM
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Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by Wookiep

Originally posted by Janky Red
reply to post by Wookiep
 


I still want you to establish how you have authority over someone else's uterus and the contents?

Does that mean you are going to pay and be responsible for the choice you are making for someone else?



Well, just like when a murder occurs in any other situation, the person is convicted of a crime and has to answer to a jury. Abortion in most cases is murder IMO, therefore the law should take authority on it and the people should "get involved" making sure they get their just desserts. If you don't get that concept than it's a lost cause to explain it further.

And no I'm not going to pay for another persons kid when THEY should be held accountable for their own actions. Haven't you been paying attention? Way too much whining going on, and it's not from those who don't condone murder.

edit on 6-9-2011 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)


So you are saying the state should kill a woman for having an abortion?

Again, you realize that for thousands of years, women would go and get dirty hooks put inside
of them to achieve the same results. Aren't you wise enough to recognize that a person must
feel pretty desperate to undergo such an experience. You can infer from that, that women
will continue on doing it regardless of totalitarian laws which may be enacted.

I think it is insane that you would propose putting women into prison for something they decide
regarding their own biology and body. I really think that is crazy dude...

A woman who gets an abortion is taking responsibility for her own actions, nobody is forcing her.



I didn't say I am for the state "killing" a woman for having an abortion. I think it should be treated as a murder yes, but let's be honest murderers get less time than drug dealers these days. Unless they are serial killers, they don't tend to get the death penalty so much anymore.

For the record, *I* think it's insane to propose that a woman has the "right" to kill a baby. This is an argument that will not have a winner. Everyone has made it clear what their position is, but unfortunately you and I are not going to agree.
edit on 6-9-2011 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:36 PM
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Originally posted by Wookiep
reply to post by Kitilani
 


Ok, ok, I'll be the bigger man here. I won't respond to your next reply about this reply.


I actually stopped "crying" about it as you put it 4 posts ago now, yet I keep hearing "OMGZ YER BITHIN ABOUT IT X TIMES NOW!!!!!" I happen to find that funny and quite entertaining... but this has gone soo off topic just talking about not talking about posts that I wouldn't be surprised to see some posts deleted. Take care!
edit on 6-9-2011 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)




Nice job editing your 5th post whining about it. Nice. Classy.
Hey, are you capable of having a normal conversation?
5 posts in a row just complaining about what I did and did not reply to all the end with you lying that you stopped whining about it when all you did was whine about it.
I responded to it. You edited your post. We all done here?



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:36 PM
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Originally posted by Kitilani

Originally posted by Wookiep
Thank you dearest Kitilani, and thanks for staying on topic. Sorry to you and Janky! Please send your family my best wishes, please take care good kind sir!

edit on 6-9-2011 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)


Sir?

Now I get it.
Yeah, kitty is a pretty funny guys name.


My bad, I edited it just for you.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:37 PM
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reply to post by Wyn Hawks
 


Partially so.

Congratulations, you're looking at the type of people being mass produced at college. The careful merger of socialist with science.

But fyi, that's not proving what I said wrong.
edit on 6-9-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-9-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:38 PM
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Originally posted by Gorman91

Sure people do not want things. and they have all the right in the world to kill themselves if they don't want to live.


Which means....?

Oh that the term "unwanted" actually does mean something. Why did you say it did not?



What is sustainable?

Do you need the definition of the word or are you more interested in political manipulation of terms?

All things in time will die, and in time even the very existence of life will end in this universe. The universe is not sustainable. This is a fact. Perhaps it will restart after, great, but everything that was will be destroyed in so doing.

Yeah, you do need the definition. There is a difference between sustainable and infinitely sustainable.



Therefore sustainability is an invented term. It exists purely in perspective. Yes I do believe sustainability exists. No I don't think it's justified to prevent humanity to exist.


That is just stupid. It is a real word with a real meaning. You are not making any sense.




Fetuses are human. They have dna. They have the same potential to get to adulthood. They deserve the same rights.


Yeah that is not what I asked you.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by Wookiep

Originally posted by Kitilani

Originally posted by Wookiep
Thank you dearest Kitilani, and thanks for staying on topic. Sorry to you and Janky! Please send your family my best wishes, please take care good kind sir!

edit on 6-9-2011 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)


Sir?

Now I get it.
Yeah, kitty is a pretty funny guys name.


My bad, I edited it just for you.


I guess talking about my womb earlier was a little confusing.
I could have been a man with a womb I guess.
What college you going to again?



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:42 PM
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reply to post by Kitilani
 


Oh I didn't see the post on your womb your highness. So, how long are you going to decide to personally attack me? Don't like my viewpoint? Too bad.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:43 PM
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reply to post by Kitilani
 





Which means....? Oh that the term "unwanted" actually does mean something. Why did you say it did not?


I'm not going to pretend I'm not wrong, I give you that.




Yeah, you do need the definition. There is a difference between sustainable and infinitely sustainable.


Sure there is. And that's irrelevant to the population being sustainable or not considering we could always build down or simply leave the Earth. Money and technology are the real limiting factors. Not population, as was the context you put it in.




That is just stupid. It is a real word with a real meaning. You are not making any sense.


If the difference between objectivity and subjectivity is stupid, well that's real sad for you.




Yeah that is not what I asked you.


You asked for the scientific reasoning. There it is.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:46 PM
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Originally posted by jeramie
It doesn't matter what it's called. It's still murder.


Is it? I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing but atleast attempt to formulate some sort of reasoning behind your statement. Do you eat eggs? Is a birds life objectively less valuable than a humans?

Murder would be taking someone's life away from them, yet do the unborn have a life pre- birth? It removes the potential for life but considering they are very unlikely to have any consciousness at that point and could not survive/ become a living creature without the host, could that be considered life?

I suggest you read Peter Singer's writing on this to do with the factor of suffering to determine morality/ ethics.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:49 PM
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reply to post by yes4141
 


I would argue that objectively a human life is more important for the simple reason we can act on these things.

I don't like arguments for rights based off consciousness, or sentience, or other anthropomorphic terms. It's really rather simple. It has the same potential to become Einstein as much as anyone, and therefore has the same rights as the best of us until he chooses to become the worst of us.


Weather she has a life or not yer, or a consciousness, in that womb, she still has the same potential. The same as a baby just born, the same as an adult.
edit on 6-9-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:50 PM
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Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Janky Red
 


Why yes. If it was mine I would pay for it. I'd honestly quit college and do that. because that's my responsibility. Plain and simple.


Well good on you




I'd be all in favor of the state forcing responsibility, be it some form of advocate for health and well being visiting, or God only knows how many other methods. The socialists seem to be on the rise these days, so I see no reason why we cannot find volunteers to care for kids. Back in the days of old, that's what the elderly were for, aside from knowledge.


You would be for the State forcing someone to start a family? You have a Ron Paul logo and yet you condone
the state forcing upon a sovereign individual, the most private and sacred of realms in any society.

I like you from what I can tell, but if I have never heard of a more STATE empowering idea, EVER.
How would the state enforce such a totalitarian monitoring system?




How funny. Evolution of humans has produced lonely elderly and needy children. huh. Seems to me like the solution is right in front of our biological nature face.


In the end who do you expect pay for all these un aborted children, can we count of you
sire?

Why don't you start a charity? why not start with the MILLIONS of babies alive, with names and faces
here today?



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:52 PM
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Originally posted by Kitilani
Either that or men just do not know where not to stick their noses when not invited.


...well, to be fair, not all men are that way - just the ones that werent raised right... sadly for humanity as a whole, theres plenty of pro-misogynistic females who stand behind that ilk and gladly produce more anal retentive jerks psychologically dysfunctional control freaks...



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:54 PM
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Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by yes4141
 


I would argue that objectively a human life is more important for the simple reason we can act on these things.

I don't like arguments for rights based off consciousness, or sentience, or other anthropomorphic terms. It's really rather simple. It has the same potential to become Einstein as much as anyone, and therefore has the same rights as the best of us until he chooses to become the worst of us.
edit on 6-9-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)


You only answered one part of my post.

I agree that rationalising due to subjectivity (if that's not contradictory) is not particularly effective, yet in truth it's all we ever really have. Though that isn't relevant to suffering.

So your point is that a potential for life is equal to life itself and deserves the same treatment?



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:54 PM
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reply to post by Janky Red
 


I would not really favor the state forcing you to have a family, but rather, forcing you to take care of your mess. To pay your dues to the thing you created. There is always the need for some government. As little as possible.





In the end who do you expect pay for all these un aborted children, can we count of you sire? Why don't you start a charity? why not start with the MILLIONS of babies alive, with names and faces here today?


Simple. I don't know, but there's a hell of a greater probability of that problem being solved with more brains working on it.

The idea of unwanted children simply doesn't sit well with me. Primarily because my parents did want me, but by age 7 I had decided I did not want my parents, and I never changed that decision. My parents were great for funding my desires in life, and nothing else. And I know I could have gone a lot further without that funding all the same, because I handle well under pressure. Fact is that if I can decide that young to not like my parents, then I see no reason why the idea of unwanted children should be an issue. Fact is, sometimes the kid can speak for himself. And indeed, do more for himself than this uber-empathy based philosophy.



posted on Sep, 6 2011 @ 10:56 PM
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reply to post by yes4141
 


I argue that the potential for life is indeed more important than life itself in every which way.

Potential is always greater than current because it's derivative based, not a single digit.

I'd save anyone irregardless to whom they are, but the objective truth of the matter is that the choices people make make themselves less valuable or more valuable beyond that basic humanity. That basic humanity is what gives us all the same rights. And the potential to get there is the justifies for it.




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