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Singapore backs Beijing on Taiwan

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posted on Aug, 22 2004 @ 12:28 PM
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Apart from being a major financial 'hub', will this have a lot of weight regarding the
ongoing argument over Taiwan.



SINGAPORE'S new leader tried to mend fences with China today, saying the city-state would back Beijing if Taipei "provoked" armed conflict across the Taiwan Strait.

In a nationally televised address, Lee Hsien Loong reaffirmed Singapore's backing for the so-called one-China policy, and stressed the importance that the tiny South-East Asian country attaches to cordial relations with Asia's emerging giant.

"China has made it very clear that if Taiwan moves toward independence, China will not stand idly by. War may be inevitable," Lee said in the National Day Rally speech, the local equivalent of the US president's state of the union address.

news.com.au...

Sanc'.




posted on Aug, 22 2004 @ 01:41 PM
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This junior Lee is the son of the old Lee kuan-yew, the prime minister for 30 years. Singapore invested heavily in China so he's playing Murdock's game of kissing up to the dictators. His utmost concren is business interests. Actually come back to think about it, Singapore is itself an authoratarian government. He wouldn't have got this job were it not for his father.



posted on Aug, 22 2004 @ 11:11 PM
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i disgree
actually,just before junior lee(li xianlong) become the prime minister,he paid a visit to Taiwan and met Cheng Shuibian(the so-called president),
which caused resentment in Beijing.singapore kisses up to the US much more than China.
it seems that Taiwan has won the sympathy of the world in the name of democracy,its leader played underdog quite well and millions of dollars spent on "diplomacy" and propagandar didn't went to waste.since people all over the world are caring about the "public opinion" in Taiwan,while the opinion of the people in the chinesemainland was totally disregared.(or was seen as been brainwashed).and the one china policy was intentionaly distorted.
the result is that Cheng Shuibian is becoming more and more desparately pushing forward the independence of Taiwan,which will inevitably drag china into another civil war.

[edit on 22-8-2004 by suihx]



posted on Aug, 23 2004 @ 04:05 AM
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Well, I'd say that part of the reason for this is... Who, except a superpower, would really want to anger a nuclear power (and forecasted future superpower) that China is.

One of the commonly used arguments I've seen used by Chinese in this forum is the "How many countries officially recognises Taiwan as a country".
M'well, I think the same applies there. No one would really want to upset China because it isn't in their interest. That does not necessarily mean that they like it, or genuinely agree with it.. But few would really want to anger China the same way that few would really want to mess with the US.
(Does not apply to terrorists/freedom fighters/whatever they want to call it, since they don't feel like they have anything to lose, and may even benefit from their death)

What still puzzles me is why China fuss so much over a small island with what.. 22-23mil habitants. If they can be as successful (economically) as Taiwan, proportionaly to their size/population... Along with a less authoratarian government... Then it'll really be Taiwan's loss if they do not want to become part of a superpower (you can only do -so- much with an island of that size).
Pointing missiles isn't the most convincing way of Beijing's "good intention" if you ask me..

[edit on 23-8-2004 by AxBattler]



posted on Aug, 23 2004 @ 09:07 AM
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in my opinion,it is just too unfair for china(the PRC) to be commonly associated with dictatorship,hostility...just because of its regime.
while the opposite side would thus often won the support(sympathy) of the world.china always played the role of "the bad guy"though the fact may
be quite far from it.
the reason why china(the PRC) want to get Taiwan back not lies in the government,but lies in the chinese people.in china,there is lots of people are discontent with the govenment(though china has achieved great grogress recent years),but I can hardly find anyone who don't want Taiwan back.the ideal of forming a unified,powerful country has been built into the minds of all chinese people.if the government let Taiwan go indepedence peacefully,then it may have to face the problem of being overthrown by the people.(to understand this,u need to look into the misery history of china in the recent 150 years)but too often,this was ignored caz someone think the chinese people had to say so or they have been brainwashed.
to me,like anyone else,I don't want a war,espacially when the chinesemainland must take the risk of losing the oppotunity of developing.
I want to do anything to stop the war,even if they keep the current state.(to be virtually indepedent),but in any case,the declare of indepedence of Taiwan is untolerable.



posted on Aug, 23 2004 @ 07:40 PM
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Originally posted by suihx
but I can hardly find anyone who don't want Taiwan back.the ideal of forming a unified,powerful country has been built into the minds of all chinese people.


Gee, I wonder if that has somethign to do with 5 DECADES of brainwashing by the Chinese government?!?!? Do ya Think?



posted on Aug, 23 2004 @ 09:07 PM
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More to the point, if a goverment needs to fear to be overthrown by the people for letting go a tiny island.. I think there is something seriously wrong with either the people or the government. No offense, but surely, the government has better things to invest in than the billions they spend in building their amphibious army (and other military upgrade), and its people more important things to worry about than what is in the mind of the people from a tiny island.

I mean, if everything is fine in China (people are happy, living standard high, etc. etc.), then I can see the government and people seeking to expand (or unify - whatever). But as far as I am aware, there is still much work to do. There has been great progress, yes, but there is still a lot more to do.

[edit on 23-8-2004 by AxBattler]



posted on Aug, 23 2004 @ 09:09 PM
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Gee, I wonder if that has somethign to do with 5 DECADES of brainwashing by the Chinese government?!?!? Do ya Think?

It is one of the misunderstandings some people from Taiwan usually have.
do you really think the CCP can be so powerful as to wash the brains of 1.3
billion people.especially when in china now over 87 million people have access to the internet.and all the students begin to learn english as a major subject since elementary school.
but such a groudless opinion makes great difference,based on it.the world focuses totally on the public opinion of 23 million people(not all of them,even may not be the majority),yet the public opinion of 1.3 billion people was totally disregarded.
and such obvious discrimination was done in the name of "democracy"!!



posted on Aug, 23 2004 @ 09:39 PM
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Originally posted by AxBattler
No offense, the government has better things to invest in than the billions they spend in building their amphibious army (and other military upgrade),

actually,the money PRC government spent on army IS small,even according to the US report,the sum is not so large.I wonder why so many of u may regard PRC as a military power when it actually spent most of its money in its economy.



and its people more important things to worry about than what is in the mind of the people from a tiny island.

it is commonplace for u not to understand this,after all,we may have a completely history,the chinese has undergone such a history that when their country is weak and not unified,even their lives can not be guaranteed(let alone their property).



I mean, if everything is fine in China (people are happy, living standard high, etc. etc.), then I can see the government and people seeking to expand (or unify - whatever).

it is really what the PRC government is devoted to do.if there should be a war,no matter what the result may be,PRC will suffer great lose.so the PRC government is take all measures to stop Taiwan from declaring independence.(and the war).what we want is Taiwan don't declare independence now.(if so,then it will never return to china).but unfortunately,some coutry seemingly don't want to give us the oppotunity to develop and want to gain benefits from it.



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by suihx
It is one of the misunderstandings some people from Taiwan usually have.
do you really think the CCP can be so powerful as to wash the brains of 1.3
billion people.especially when in china now over 87 million people have access to the internet.and all the students begin to learn english as a major subject since elementary school.
but such a groudless opinion makes great difference,based on it.the world focuses totally on the public opinion of 23 million people(not all of them,even may not be the majority),yet the public opinion of 1.3 billion people was totally disregarded.
and such obvious discrimination was done in the name of "democracy"!!


I have lived and taught in China. I have seen some of the brainwashing firsthand. YES, brainwashing in terms of nationalism and the claims of the government is widespread, and largely effective in controlling the reactionso f Chinese people. The recent riots in Bejing after their loss to Japan shows the possible effect of it. For decades they have been demonizing the Japanese. The government tries to pull the reins on it for a couple of weeks so that their people don't embarass them in front of all of Asia and they fail miserably. What will happen between now and 2008 I wonder.

As for the internet, the internet is HIGHLY regulated in China. Large numbers of websites can't be accessed, and it isn't for pornographic content. When I was there, neither CNN nor Fox News could be accessed from there, as well as a large number of websites in the .tw domain. It is widely known that material on the internet is censored in China and that universities have been known to show down BBS service the moment it begins to get even lightly critical of the government and/or the CPP (one and the same really.)

The level of English in China is still very low. Very few can really understand it conversationally. Furthermore, access to foreign networks like CNN and others are highly regulated and generally are limited to foreign residences and high class hotels.

As for democracy, why does the opinion of people in China matter concerning Taiwan. Sure, let's ask the American people if Canada should be the 51st state. It isn't like the Canadians could outvote the Americans. It is absurd, of course, because Canada is a soveriegn nation and have their own government. The same is true of China. BEsides, if the Chinese government don't care about the opinions of its own people regarding their own country, why should people in Taiwan care what then thing regarding the country that is Taiwan?



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 10:04 AM
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The recent riots in Bejing after their loss to Japan shows the possible effect of it. For decades they have been demonizing the Japanese.

seemingly u still don't don't believe the people of the mainland can have their own thoughts.the resentment to the japanese is popular in the mainland, it is mainly because their prime minister still don't want to confess their crime. it is not powered by the government.in fact, I have never heard actions against the Japanese was supported by the government,but I heard of some was stopped.if u often visit forums in the chinesemainland,u'll see that.



the internet is HIGHLY regulated in China. Large numbers of websites can't be accessed, and it isn't for pornographic content. When I was there, neither CNN nor Fox News could be accessed from there, as well as a large number of websites in the .tw domain.

to check this,I just tried to visit the CNN,and succed.and I often visit some website in Taiwan and the US,to today,I haven't had much problems to access to them.it seems that your argument was exaggerated.



It is widely known that material on the internet is censored in China and that universities have been known to show down BBS service the moment it begins to get even lightly critical of the government and/or the CPP

if u've visited some net forums in the mainland,u can find many articles criticizing the government.of course it can't be compared with some developed democracy coutries,but it is also not as bad as u said.and to me,it is even better than yours.I have a bad impression of your democracy.
(if it can be called "democracy")



Sure, let's ask the American people if Canada should be the 51st state. It isn't like the Canadians could outvote the Americans. It is absurd, of course, because Canada is a soveriegn nation and have their own government.

this arguement was set on the groud that Taiwan is a is a soveriegn nation,but it is abosulotely not the case.I can understand some of u don't want to be reigned by CCP,because in your minds CCP=dictatorship
and the mainland is behind Taiwan in economy.but I don't understand(and tolerate) why some of u don't recognize Taiwan is a part of china.and so eager want to declare independence NOW.no nation will let a part of it declare independence.it is the same with the mainland.

Having seen many of your posts and your arguements,I feel that u are somehow brainwashed.after all,not only the government of the mainland tells lies,Cheng shuibian is a good actor,and some of your media is as sophilicated in distorting news as the CCTV.and you only saw what u want to see.



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by suihxit is really what the PRC government is devoted to do.if there should be a war,no matter what the result may be,PRC will suffer great lose.so the PRC government is take all measures to stop Taiwan from declaring independence.(and the war).what we want is Taiwan don't declare independence now.(if so,then it will never return to china).but unfortunately,some coutry seemingly don't want to give us the oppotunity to develop and want to gain benefits from it.

Personally, I prefer the EU model than the 1 country - 2 systems model.
In truth they might not even be -that- different.
The EU is "united" in many sense (and benefits in many ways from that).
The sole difference that I can see from that, is that each of the members is still considered "independant" (but I am sure still rule under an EU law - even though the have their own laws). However, each member is still a country in its own right. Personally, I think everyone wins in this situation. Everyone is happy to have their own "country" and constitution, yet they get great benefits from the "Union". I don't really see what can go wrong with that.
National pride (one country, one China etc. etc.) is nice and all.. Spoken or written. But having to deal with a less than perfectly happy region may end up being costly (and is that worthwhile?). And is the average Taiwanese (lets ignore the leaders for a sec and look at the mass) looking forward to be "liberated"?

Oh and.. I enjoy my unregulated Internet access. Having the right of doing (browsing) what I want on my own should be a right, not a luxury.

[edit on 24-8-2004 by AxBattler]



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by suihx
actually,the money PRC government spent on army IS small,even according to the US report,the sum is not so large.I wonder why so many of u may regard PRC as a military power when it actually spent most of its money in its economy.


actually its the 2nd largest military budget (60bn) with france right behind them, pretty soon china could reach the 100 billion mark.



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 08:56 PM
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Originally posted by suihx

seemingly u still don't don't believe the people of the mainland can have their own thoughts.the resentment to the japanese is popular in the mainland, it is mainly because their prime minister still don't want to confess their crime. it is not powered by the government.in fact, I have never heard actions against the Japanese was supported by the government,but I heard of some was stopped.if u often visit forums in the chinesemainland,u'll see that.


When I was in China, I regularly saw movies and propoganda videos demonizing the Japanese. Granted, historically, they did some awful things. However, the Chinese government conitnues to use what the Japanese did 60 years ago to stir nationalist, even racist sentiment against the Japanese. This also happens against the Americans on occasion as well. I was in China when the U.S. Air Force accidently bombed the Chinese embassy in the then-Yugoslavia. The CHiCom government immediately banned all NBA games (it was the playoffs at the time) from being broadcast and replaced them with old Korean War movies of Chinese "volunteers" driving back American forces. This drove up anti-American sentiment at the time and created a dangerous environment for Americans living in China at the time. I personally heard of several attacks against Americans (or people they thought were Americans) in Shanghai alone. Is this the result of Chinese people's attitudes or the propoganda of the Chinese government? Perhaps there is some feeling there among the people against Japan and the U.S., but this kind of propoganda certainly fuels it.



to check this,I just tried to visit the CNN,and succed.and I often visit some website in Taiwan and the US,to today,I haven't had much problems to access to them.it seems that your argument was exaggerated.


If you check my post, I said "when I was in China", which was from 1997 to 1999.



if u've visited some net forums in the mainland,u can find many articles criticizing the government.of course it can't be compared with some developed democracy coutries,but it is also not as bad as u said.and to me,it is even better than yours.I have a bad impression of your democracy.
(if it can be called "democracy")


Have you ever been to Taiwan? The media criticizes the government all the time. Chinese are allowed criticism within very strict boundaries. If you cross those boundaries, you are sent to prison. What about the hero of the Chinese people who blew the whistle on SARS. If it wasn't for the attention he got in the West, he would likely still be in jail. As for Taiwan, the media is completely free to criticize the government, or anyone else they see fit to criticize. As for Taiwan being a democracy, it is an open process and highly transparant. It would have been almost impossible to cheat as every vote is counted and tallied in public, in the open where ANYONE who wants to see the count and even every single ballot, can see it. In this sense, it is much more transparant that the United States.



this arguement was set on the groud that Taiwan is a is a soveriegn nation,but it is abosulotely not the case.I can understand some of u don't want to be reigned by CCP,because in your minds CCP=dictatorship
and the mainland is behind Taiwan in economy.but I don't understand(and tolerate) why some of u don't recognize Taiwan is a part of china.and so eager want to declare independence NOW.no nation will let a part of it declare independence.it is the same with the mainland.


Taiwan most certainly is not a part of China. The Qing Empire ceded Taiwan to Japan in perpetuity (meaning: forever) in 1895. The Japanese relinquished their claim to sovereignty in 1952, but no where in the SF Peace Treaty is their any mention of Taiwan being given to China. In accordance with internaitonal law based on the customary practice of states, it must be specifically noted in a peace treaty for a territory to be transferred from one state to another.


Having seen many of your posts and your arguements,I feel that u are somehow brainwashed.after all,not only the government of the mainland tells lies,Cheng shuibian is a good actor,and some of your media is as sophilicated in distorting news as the CCTV.and you only saw what u want to see.


I actually did my research on this topic while a graduate student in political science in the United States. I hadn't even set foot in Taiwan prior to doing my research on this topic. However, after having lived in both China and Taiwan, I am more convinced than ever that China and Taiwan are two separate countries. I love both countries, but they are still two separate countries. I look forward to the day when the great Chinese state can enter the world of democratic nations, like Taiwan has.



[edit on 2004/8/24 by ludahai]



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 09:12 PM
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Originally posted by namehere
actually its the 2nd largest military budget (60bn) with france right behind them, pretty soon china could reach the 100 billion mark.


Where did you get that information? Do you mean 60 Billion US dollars? With Chinese GDP about 1 trillion, that amounts to about 6% of GDP. I think the spending is around 1-2 percent of GDP.



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 09:17 PM
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Originally posted by AxBattler
Well, I'd say that part of the reason for this is... Who, except a superpower, would really want to anger a nuclear power (and forecasted future superpower) that China is.

Current superpower will try everyway it can to disrupt China to become a a potential big power. Taiwan is just a tool in this process.

It is a unfortunate for those TI diehards, that Taiwan is only 180 KM from Mainland China. I would suggest them move Taiwan much closer to US West Coast over night. China will not able to do a thing.



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 09:32 PM
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Originally posted by AxBattler
Personally, I prefer the EU model than the 1 country - 2 systems model.
In truth they might not even be -that- different.

EU is the Union of Sovereign nations. But Taiwan is not a sovereign nation. Current state in Taiwan strait is because of unfinished civil war.



National pride (one country, one China etc. etc.) is nice and all.. Spoken or written. But having to deal with a less than perfectly happy region may end up being costly (and is that worthwhile?). And is the average Taiwanese (lets ignore the leaders for a sec and look at the mass) looking forward to be "liberated"?


All the Mainland is the nominal agreement that Taiwan is part of China. Taiwan retains all current government, millitary, and way of life. Mainland will not interfere the internal affair of Taiwan. This is what Taiwanese will get in a peaceful unification. But when war is necessary, all bets are off. Taiwan will be just a normal province of China, same as Hainan province. There are two ways ahead, Taiwan people can choose either one.



Oh and.. I enjoy my unregulated Internet access. Having the right of doing (browsing) what I want on my own should be a right, not a luxury.

Most blocked are "Yellow" (Adult) websites. Some outlawed cult sites are also blocked. In US, there are good mechanisms to provent Children to access X-rate contents. In China, so such mechanism exists. So I support these measures.



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 09:44 PM
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the military budget of china according to different resources is quite different,range form 25billion dollars to 60 billion dollars.even it is 60 billion dollars,it is just 12.3% of that of US in the year 2004.

the EU method may be a choice,hopefully it will not be used as a measure to go to independence by some Taiwan leader.



[edit on 24-8-2004 by suihx]



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 10:31 PM
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When I was in China, I regularly saw movies and propoganda videos demonizing the Japanese.

if what the video displayed what the real history,how can u call it "demonizing".It's the japanese demonized themselves.and they still don't confess their crimes even today,how can a chinese in his right mind have a good impression of japan.




I was in China when the U.S. Air Force accidently bombed the Chinese embassy in the then-Yugoslavia. The CHiCom government immediately banned all NBA games (it was the playoffs at the time) from being broadcast and replaced them with old Korean War movies of Chinese "volunteers" driving back American forces. This drove up anti-American sentiment at the time and created a dangerous environment for Americans living in China at the time. I personally heard of several attacks against Americans (or people they thought were Americans) in Shanghai alone.

then what should china do when its embassy was bombed by the US(most probably,it was intentionally).to go on play the NBA games?after all,china doesn't need to kiss up to the US as Taiwan did.it is not right for the chinese to attack against Americans(if it really happened).but I wonder
why u ignored that the President called on the people to calm down.I admit some of your arguements are truth.but too often ,they are only part of the truth.



As for Taiwan, the media is completely free to criticize the government, or anyone else they see fit to criticize. As for Taiwan being a democracy, it is an open process and highly transparant. It would have been almost impossible to cheat as every vote is counted and tallied in public, in the open where ANYONE who wants to see the count and even every single ballot, can see it. In this sense, it is much more transparant that the United States.

your media serves as a tool for the combat of different parties,your politicians sometimes even fight in the "Lifayuan".if the politician doesn't cheat,then how do u explain the so-called " 319 shooting case".most unfortunately,some politician intentionally caz tension in the Taiwan strait to frighten the people,just to increase their votes.




Taiwan most certainly is not a part of China. The Qing Empire ceded Taiwan to Japan in perpetuity (meaning: forever) in 1895. The Japanese relinquished their claim to sovereignty in 1952, but no where in the SF Peace Treaty is their any mention of Taiwan being given to China. In accordance with internaitonal law based on the customary practice of states, it must be specifically noted in a peace treaty for a territory to be transferred from one state to another.

this is probably your most commonly used arguement,no wonder,the US certainly don't want china to be reunified.and they've done some tricks,so as to satisfy some one like you.everyone knows that the WW2 ended in 1945,and since then,Taiwan has been handed back to china(ROC).if I remembered correctly ,china(both the ROC and the PRC) has never signed the SF treaty.so it is just absurd to use it as your "evidence"
by the way,if your often visit some website in the mainland,your'll find enough materials to answer your arguements.It seems to me that u are intentionally distort the facts(by the way of just telling part of the fact) to mislead foreigners who have little knowledge of the "Taiwan issue"




I actually did my research on this topic while a graduate student in political science in the United States. I hadn't even set foot in Taiwan prior to doing my research on this topic. However, after having lived in both China and Taiwan, I am more convinced than ever that China and Taiwan are two separate countries. I love both countries, but they are still two separate countries. I look forward to the day when the great Chinese state can enter the world of democratic nations, like Taiwan has.



I agree that the chinesemainland should reform its regime and go to democracy,but I don't think Taiwan can be the model.seemingly u want to prove that u are impartial in the "Taiwan issue".though absolutely u are not,how can u say u love "both coutries"(of coure,Taiwan is not a coutry) when u ignored the majority of the people's opinion.



[edit on 2004/8/24 by ludahai]

[edit on 25-8-2004 by suihx]



posted on Aug, 26 2004 @ 07:42 AM
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Taiwan should be seen as an independent state but the world dosnt have the guts to stand up to china. Now Im not one of these people who protest this & that war but isnt it a bit lame when Bush speakes of democracy in Iraq when he gives his support to china a dictatorship.
P.S. this is not just a chance for some bush bashing I am aware it has been like this since the 1970s.




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