HC's Ancient Aliens episode "Aliens and Ancient Engineers" kicked *SS!!!

Originally posted by gravytrain
FYI this is my first post on Abovetopsecret, although I have been a lurker for over 2 years now. I work as a Mechanical Engineer so I have some experience and real knowledge about this episode of AA in particular. The fact of the matter is that there is no way in h*ll people working with only copper, or bronze tools would have been able to build these ancient structures. The reason being is that copper and bronze tools wear out far too quickly. It IS possible, but not in the time-frame given to us by current accepted theory. It would have taken many, many decades and lots of blood, sweat, and tears to create these structures using said ancient tech. They say the great pyramid was built in 20 years, that is simply impossible given that they only had the technology the 'mainstream' says they had.

Thus we are left with 2 options:

Option 1: The ancients had much more advanced technology than we give them credit for: This theory is interesting in that it means that somehow, in some way, the ancients had amazing technical skills and knowledge, but chose to not write it down, not pass it down, and not keep any record of that technology whatsoever, even though they kept records of almost everything else. Lets explore this theory further- perhaps their was an ancient genius in Egypt, like Nikolai Tesla, or Einstein, who was employed and built the great pyramid but kept his knowledge a secret from everyone else, which would be impossible given all the help he would have needed to build it. Perhaps they did not keep it a secret but instead passed it down to the Elites, and only the privileged few today still know about it.

Or perhaps they had this technology, but maybe a huge disaster struck, and they assumed that the Gods were upset with them because they were manipulating nature with their technology, so they destroyed it and all records of it to 'appease' the gods, given how religious ancient people are assumed to be, this is entirely possible and I invite anyone to disprove this theory.

Yet another theory is that they had advanced technology but it was all made of Iron, but iron oxidizes so readily, that any such technology would have completely rusted away long ago leaving nothing left, again if this is the case their is no record whatsoever depicting such technology.

Yet another theory is that they instead cast the blocks in place using some type of soft easily powdered limestone (which is readily available in Egypt) and mixed it with an as yet unknown solution of water and various binders, similar to modern concrete. As an Engineer I think that this theory is the best explanation from a physics and materials science standpoint. It explains the close fits, the massive stone blocks (because they would not need to be transported as is, they would only have to transport crushed limestone) However this does not explain why no record of this technology exists, unless it was just common knowledge at the time and nobody thought anything of it. I do not think we would leave a record of how we made concrete carved into walls of any of our modern buildings. It is just common knowledge to those of us in the field.

Option 2: Ancient people had the help of Aliens. This theory explains everything, but is supported by only circumstantial evidence. Nothing has been proven. If we accept this theory we have to assume that ancient man was stupid, and incapable of truly explaining in writing what happened, instead only describing what happened in vague myths and legends about gods. However, some aspects are intriguing. Such as the first emperor of China. He is a very interesting figure in the light of this theory. Also the Dogon (spelling?) tribe of Africa, and the ancient Sumerian stories are intriguing in the light of this theory, but it is still only a theory.

thank you for posting. i think you are on the right track

i will point out...there is a reason tradesman/builders/contractors have "bonded into brotherhoods" over the years in recent history..LET ALONE back then!

a lot of it could be about trade secrets and keeping their jobs..but some could be because of the origin whether an ancient builder culture or aliens. but you don't necessarily have to FLIP to the alien theory at all although it would be amazing if thats why its been so secret.

we do have an example of amazing craftsmanship/builder secrets in Greece/ROME and what the Knights Templars knew with gothic cathedral construction. we also have a thing called "the masons"

literally...the word is right there

lets face it, its a very good hypothesis that this stuff was passed on and kept more secret in families then folks realize. these groups then became more speculative and less about the actual construction methods

guys,i'm sory to blow a hole ino your perfectly normal mainstream point of view
but using bronze saws you can't really
carve a door into a mountain with rounded corners
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6fd227439f21.jpg[/atsimg]
or make this intricate design into granite,
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/43b26944afa2.jpg[/atsimg]


also the AA theory has it's root into the stories of gods that gave birth to humankind,
the same story is present in different cultures that were separated by time and distance and had no
contact with one another
to claim that they all possesed superior knowledge of mathematics,geometry , architecture,astronomy and chemistry and yet sacrifice enormous amounts of time to create incredible monuments just to dedicate them to fairytales is simply an ignorant and illogical point of view

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by gravytrain

 

Option 2: Ancient people had the help of Aliens. This theory explains everything, but is supported by only circumstantial evidence. Nothing has been proven. If we accept this theory we have to assume that ancient man was stupid, and incapable of truly explaining in writing what happened, instead only describing what happened in vague myths and legends about gods. However, some aspects are intriguing. Such as the first emperor of China. He is a very interesting figure in the light of this theory. Also the Dogon (spelling?) tribe of Africa, and the ancient Sumerian stories are intriguing in the light of this theory, but it is still only a theory.

This question is directed to anyone.
Why would ancient man have to be stupid if it turns out that aliens built or taught ancient man to build the pyramids and other such ancient marvels? To me if aliens are responsible for either it means that:

1. Ancient man was smart and savvy enough to interact with an alien species.
2. Ancient man wasn't part of the equation at all.

Something else I would like to comment on and it covers the whole spectrum with alien visitation theories. What we consider extraordinary and therefor requiring extraordinary evidence might be totally mundane and typical to any visiting species. For example it is a mundane thing to take your family to the beach or a park but if you're a responsible person you take your trash with you, five minutes after you leave no one would be able to tell anyone had been there, not because you want to hide that you were there but because it's the right thing to do.

Well said, every time I go to the beach I don't leave a broken down car, why would we expect to find a saucer?

Reasons to leave current civilization alone:

Ancient civilizations didnt have nuclear bombs and advanced air, sea and land organisations (who are are all enemys or allies with everyone else)

As per my thread on our abiliity to communicate so fast and preciously, it being as much to do with it as our amazing ability to destroy everything.

We are hostile to our OWN species, you dont expect somthing smarter with amazing technologies falling from the skys to not be at least concerned we would go postal.

So much seems to be missing when it comes to these Ancient people, external help is the only answer.

reply to post by Biigs

Not sure I follow what you are saying.

Originally posted by MaximRecoil

Originally posted by Harte
I saw your previous posts.

You presented no evidence at all. Circumstantial or otherwise.

You referred to the History Channel's show and told me that evidence was presented there.

I maintain that it was not.

I still so maintain.

Nearly every claim made on that show was circumstantial evidence by definition. That is a fact. It is not debatable.

It is completely debatable, except you fail to recognize that what was presented on television was a baised and purposefully partial telling of what is known.

I told you you were lied to. How is a flat-out lie "circumstantial evidence"?

A lie of omission is still a lie.

Harte

Originally posted by KingJames1337
I mean for real, I'll go on the record and say it the evidence of a nuclear war in Pakistan IS proof aliens visited us in the past. My reasoning, process of elimination

Except, no such evidence exists.

You just read it and it suddenly was true?

Good Lord!

Consider these verses from the ancient (6500 BC at the latest) Mahabharata:

The Mahabharata dates from the 8th or 9th century BC. That's more like the year 850 BC. Vedic cultures had no written language prior to around 1500 BC. Surely some of it is older - owing to an oral tradition, no doubt. But no oral tradition in Asia has ever lasted more than a thousand years, much less your claimed 3,000.

Also, many events in the Mahabharata took place in that time frame of around 850 BC. Except this one:

...a single projectile
Charged with all the power of the Universe.
An incandescent column of smoke and flame
As bright as the thousand suns
Rose in all its splendour...
a perpendicular explosion
with its billowing smoke clouds...
...the cloud of smoke
rising after its first explosion
formed into expanding round circles
like the opening of giant parasols...

..it was an unknown weapon,
An iron thunderbolt,
A gigantic messenger of death,
Which reduced to ashes
The entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas.
...The corpses were so burned
As to be unrecognisable.
The hair and nails fell out;
Pottery broke without apparent cause,
And the birds turned white.

After a few hours
All foodstuffs were infected...
...to escape from this fire
The soldiers threw themselves in streams
To wash themselves and their equipment.

That quote appears nowhere in the Mahabharata. Nowhere.

When excavations of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro reached the street level, they discovered skeletons scattered about the cities, many holding hands and sprawling in the streets as if some instant, horrible doom had taken place. People were just lying, unburied, in the streets of the city. And these skeletons are thousands of years old, even by traditional archaeological standards. What could cause such a thing? Why did the bodies not decay or get eaten by wild animals? Furthermore, there is no apparent cause of a physically violent death.

Skeletons were found - not bodies. Doesn't that indicate decay? Also, how do you know none of them were eaten by animals? What if 15 deaders were dragged off by wolves? How would we know?

The remains found seem not to be as old as the site itself, which had no fused pottery by the way. In fact, you can look at all the material they found (and are still finding) there right now on your computer, if you wish, The going theory on the bodies (IIRC) is that the handful of dead there were robbed and murdered at some later date.

These skeletons are among the most radioactive ever found, on par with those at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. At one site, Soviet scholars found a skeleton which had a radioactive level 50 times greater than normal.

Not even remotely true.

While the skeletons have been carbon-dated to 2500 BC, we must keep in mind that carbon-dating involves measuring the amount of radiation left. When atomic explosions are involved, that makes then seem much younger.

In fact, fission does not produce the sort of products that would radically change any C14 date.

The radiation from a meteor would usually die down in a couple of days.

The radiation from a nuclear blast of the worst kind will die down in a matter of months.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte
It is completely debatable, except you fail to recognize that what was presented on television was a baised and purposefully partial telling of what is known.

I told you you were lied to. How is a flat-out lie "circumstantial evidence"?

A lie of omission is still a lie.

Harte

Handwaving, as well as a flat out failure to address points = an implicit concession. As such, your implicit concession is noted.

Originally posted by CasiusIgnoranze
reply to post by CrimsonMoon

 

Then explain how the ancients built the pyramids without the wheel and only copper and stone tools to an extreme degree of precision? Not to forget all the astronomical and mathematical significance which is associated with the pyramids including the significance of the exact speed of light incorporated to the design of the Great Pyramid to an astonishing degree of precision and accuracy.

I'm guessing its all just coincidence, right?

edit on 2-9-2011 by CasiusIgnoranze because: .

You realize that the relation ship between the speed of light and the slope angle is established using units of miles per second and arc seconds? What meaning could a mile have in ancient egypt where the units of measurements were cubits and palms and such?

What meaning could a mile have had for aliens? Not that I would dismiss alien involvement off hand, granted there are some pretty big questions that remain unanswered and, hell why not, alien intervention, sure, if we find compelling evidence, but stuff like "numerical coincidences" are *everywhere* if you look hard enough.

-rrr

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by KingJames1337
I mean for real, I'll go on the record and say it the evidence of a nuclear war in Pakistan IS proof aliens visited us in the past. My reasoning, process of elimination

Except, no such evidence exists.

You just read it and it suddenly was true?

Good Lord!

Consider these verses from the ancient (6500 BC at the latest) Mahabharata:

The Mahabharata dates from the 8th or 9th century BC. That's more like the year 850 BC. Vedic cultures had no written language prior to around 1500 BC. Surely some of it is older - owing to an oral tradition, no doubt. But no oral tradition in Asia has ever lasted more than a thousand years, much less your claimed 3,000.

Also, many events in the Mahabharata took place in that time frame of around 850 BC. Except this one:

...a single projectile
Charged with all the power of the Universe.
An incandescent column of smoke and flame
As bright as the thousand suns
Rose in all its splendour...
a perpendicular explosion
with its billowing smoke clouds...
...the cloud of smoke
rising after its first explosion
formed into expanding round circles
like the opening of giant parasols...

..it was an unknown weapon,
An iron thunderbolt,
A gigantic messenger of death,
Which reduced to ashes
The entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas.
...The corpses were so burned
As to be unrecognisable.
The hair and nails fell out;
Pottery broke without apparent cause,
And the birds turned white.

After a few hours
All foodstuffs were infected...
...to escape from this fire
The soldiers threw themselves in streams
To wash themselves and their equipment.

That quote appears nowhere in the Mahabharata. Nowhere.

When excavations of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro reached the street level, they discovered skeletons scattered about the cities, many holding hands and sprawling in the streets as if some instant, horrible doom had taken place. People were just lying, unburied, in the streets of the city. And these skeletons are thousands of years old, even by traditional archaeological standards. What could cause such a thing? Why did the bodies not decay or get eaten by wild animals? Furthermore, there is no apparent cause of a physically violent death.

Skeletons were found - not bodies. Doesn't that indicate decay? Also, how do you know none of them were eaten by animals? What if 15 deaders were dragged off by wolves? How would we know?

The remains found seem not to be as old as the site itself, which had no fused pottery by the way. In fact, you can look at all the material they found (and are still finding) there right now on your computer, if you wish, The going theory on the bodies (IIRC) is that the handful of dead there were robbed and murdered at some later date.

These skeletons are among the most radioactive ever found, on par with those at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. At one site, Soviet scholars found a skeleton which had a radioactive level 50 times greater than normal.

Not even remotely true.

While the skeletons have been carbon-dated to 2500 BC, we must keep in mind that carbon-dating involves measuring the amount of radiation left. When atomic explosions are involved, that makes then seem much younger.

In fact, fission does not produce the sort of products that would radically change any C14 date.

The radiation from a meteor would usually die down in a couple of days.

The radiation from a nuclear blast of the worst kind will die down in a matter of months.

Harte

LMAO so they were killed by wolves and were stabbed and robbed and still managed to hold each other's hands. Most meteors don't even contain radiation.

"You're not going to see any signs of radiation with a meteorite," said meteorite expert Ron Baalke. "People think they are radioactive and they are not."

In the forest areas between the Indian mountains of Rajmahal and the Ganges, the explorer De Camp came upon unknown charred ruins. A number of huge masses appeared fused together and hollowed at various points "like lumps of tin struck by a stream of molten steel." The result could not be due to ordinary fire, however violent.

Further south, the British official J. Campbell stumbled upon similar ruins, with a half-vitrified courtyard, produced by an unknown agent.

Similar reports have come from other travelers in the jungle areas, reports of ruined buildings with walls ‘like thick slabs of crystal," likewise holed, split and corroded by some mysterious force.
Sands crystallizes with the application of extremely high temperature and pressure. Since there is no evidence of meteor falls, such kinds of condition only indicates nuclear blast.

Originally posted by gravytrain
reply to post by Harte

 

First of all all do respect to a fellow engineer. I am not trying to disprove your claims at all. I am simply stating that we do not know for certitude, and the facts speak for themselves.

With 2'500'000 stones 342 stones have to be moved daily (working during 365 days a year) or 431 stones daily (working during 290 days a year). That is a lot, imagine the effort put in for literally decades, nothing of the modern age even comes close to comparing to the amount of effort put into this if true.

Now, think about the logistics of this. Smaller and smaller stones were used towards the top of the pyramid, which as I am sure you agree makes sense from an engineering standpoint. All the easier to transport. I did not blatantly refute your post. All I did was show that we simply do not know for certain how they built it, and the amount of labor and time required is baffling, I never once said impossible. I do not at all condone the ancient alien theory, I simply recognize that we humans do not know for certain what happened back then and we ought to keep an open mind. Which as an engineer I am sure that you know how important it is to think outside of the box if you want to stay competitive and relevant in today's market. We simply do not know. Do NOT state as fact that which is theory. Doing so only undermines your theory and alienates those who may agree with you otherwise.

Limestone hardness: 250 as measured on the Vickers scale
Granite hardness: 850 as measured on the Vickers scale
Copper hardness: 40 as measured on the Vickers scale
Bronze hardness: 60 (fully annealed) and 258 (cold worked)

So thus you see. I invite you to try to cut massive limestone blocks with a tool that is only at max 8 vickers points higher than that of normal limestone. It will take a long long time. I looked at your article, it is questionable at best and still does NOTHING to explain exactly how this was accomplished, just speculation and flawed testing like most other so called explanations for how they constructed the pyramid. Nothing is there to convince me otherwise. It is obvious to me that you may have worked as an engineer but lack the know-how and the expertise to truly understand and appreciate the monumental work it took to construct the great pyramid. I would advise anyone to take what you say with a grain of salt, if not 10. People, do your own investigation, look into this yourself from an objective standpoint, anyone who tries to tell you they know for certain do not know, nobody knows for certain and cannot know for certain because the knowledge does not exist anymore. People need to know that there are questions that we do not know the answer to.

As far as your claim that a 1500 ton stone was never moved. It is true, however:

The Unfinished Obelisk, Aswan, Egypt. - Measures 120-feet (42m) and would have weighed over 1,168 tons when complete.

The baalbak stone: Measures 20.9m x 4.8m x 4.2m = 421.344m³. The average density of granite is 2.75 g/cm3
Therefore the approximate weight of this stone is 1158.696 tons

Not 1500 tons-true, but still extremely impressive, and I invite you to show me how exactly these stones would be moved. Please. If you are an engineer as you claim to be. I would love to see what your 'theory' is on how these stones were moved, because without mechanized machinery or even iron, It is quite simply impossible given the laws of physics and the materials available at the time.

Prove me wrong.

edit on 9/5/2011 by gravytrain because: included response

They could have built a barge around it, flooded the area and simply floated the f##ker there...

Difficult but not impossible, especially not for an engineer.

Originally posted by KingJames1337
LMAO so they were killed by wolves and were stabbed and robbed and still managed to hold each other's hands. Most meteors don't even contain radiation.

No radiation was found at Mojenjo Daro.

Here are picsof the site taken over a thirty year period.

Have at it and let us know if you see any signs of nuclear devastation.

You wont.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by KingJames1337
LMAO so they were killed by wolves and were stabbed and robbed and still managed to hold each other's hands. Most meteors don't even contain radiation.

No radiation was found at Mojenjo Daro.

Here are picsof the site taken over a thirty year period.

Have at it and let us know if you see any signs of nuclear devastation.

You wont.

Harte

I just been through a whole lot of # on this topic on another thread. Turns out there wasn't evidence of holding hands so if you want to let me have it that's cool. I'm pretty much done with this but isn't there a giant crater with basalt there?

Originally posted by KingJames1337
I just been through a whole lot of # on this topic on another thread. Turns out there wasn't evidence of holding hands so if you want to let me have it that's cool. I'm pretty much done with this but isn't there a giant crater with basalt there?

Sorry, but no.

Can't believe everything you read, right?

Harte

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by KingJames1337
I just been through a whole lot of # on this topic on another thread. Turns out there wasn't evidence of holding hands so if you want to let me have it that's cool. I'm pretty much done with this but isn't there a giant crater with basalt there?

Sorry, but no.

Can't believe everything you read, right?

Harte

Quote Simply, No, I can believe everything CNN tells me though so it's all good.

Originally posted by CrimsonMoon
No it questions our official history, maybe we have been reaching a certain level of tech and by natural disasters, repeating ice ages we get knocked back to the stone age and start all over again and why cant complex knowledge just appear? we went from swords, bows and arrows and within 300 years we have put a man on the moon (or at least have the capability too) we are poking at other dimensions with the LHC and we have weapons that can destroy whole cities and telescopes that can look back in time to the early universe. We could clone a human if we wanted to.

All this in 300 years? When your talking about the last 10-20 thousand years history would you not say all this technology we have had 'just appeared' in the last 300 years. Maybe our ancestors did advance further than we have maybe they did go off to explore the universe and find new worlds or jumped to another dimension, im open to all this but there is no evidence other than there have been multiple societies in history who did things in a way we don’t fully understand yet. But what I am not open to is these con men on that Disney channel making these wild unsubstantiated claims (Disney also told us lemmings jump off cliffs) They are there to make money and they are feeding off of ignorance. They all have books etc to sell. It makes for a fantastic science fiction story but they are not even honest enough to put the work into a decent story they have to stretch it all and lie and pass it off as fact when its no more that pseudo science and sensationalism.

Even if some things cant be explained does not mean aliens did it, if you guys really are into this then why don’t you try reading some science fiction there is some fantastic stuff out there that will blow you mind and take you to places the AA show could never dream off, Alistair Reynolds, P K Dick, Ian M Banks or even Asimov's foundation series

but watching this crap that lacks in substance...

come on people we are supposed to be denying ignorance not embracing it.

IMO, find it hard to believe a seriously advanced culture (or many of them) would at all be so superstitious as to build temples & statues for and worship many 'gods'. Nothing we have ever found makes us believe that these ancient cultures were overly advanced, other than the remains of buildings they left behind, and magical stories about highly improbably scenarios (ie, the bible).

Originally posted by KingJames1337

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by KingJames1337
I just been through a whole lot of # on this topic on another thread. Turns out there wasn't evidence of holding hands so if you want to let me have it that's cool. I'm pretty much done with this but isn't there a giant crater with basalt there?

Sorry, but no.

Can't believe everything you read, right?

Harte

Quote Simply, No, I can believe everything CNN tells me though so it's all good.

LOL

You can also believe everything FoxNews tells you.

However, the two may conflict! LOL

Harte

Originally posted by MaximRecoil

Originally posted by Harte
It is completely debatable, except you fail to recognize that what was presented on television was a baised and purposefully partial telling of what is known.

I told you you were lied to. How is a flat-out lie "circumstantial evidence"?

A lie of omission is still a lie.

Harte

Handwaving, as well as a flat out failure to address points = an implicit concession. As such, your implicit concession is noted.

Address points?

You have presented no points.

The show you use for a reference (which you still refuse to quote) is providing you with untrue information. The information is untrue on the face of it sometimes, other times it is untrue by implication - meaning they haven't told you the entire story.

This is what you're calling "evidence."

Seems to me that it is you that has left unaddressed points on the table, not I.

Harte

I have had time to watch this EP now, it was *basically* pretty good.

Although i don't like the non-necessary and very SENSATIONAL comments always pointing to "the extraterrestrials".
What i am saying, the show is good enough and it would be ok to let the mystery "stand in the room" without those constant references "...could it be that it was extraterrestrials" over and over again. Just not needed to get the point over.

Originally posted by Harte
Address points?

You have presented no points.

"Points" is yet another word you don't get to redefine. Everything you dodged in my previous post was a point, and by dodging them, you conceded them, by default.

The show you use for a reference (which you still refuse to quote) is providing you with untrue information. The information is untrue on the face of it sometimes, other times it is untrue by implication - meaning they haven't told you the entire story.

Why do you need a quote? Anyone who watched the show with an understanding of what the word "evidence" means knows that there was a lot of [circumstantial] evidence presented. Hell, some parts of the video alone (without any audio) is evidence.

Note: "Anyone with an understanding of what the word evidence means" does not include people who think that "Ancient humans couldn't have placed these stones" is part of the alleged evidence.