Microsoft 'intentionally designed software for phones to track customers without their consent'

sorry error

In the Iranian protests this was how many protesters got caught...the government was able to track protesters who had mobile phones - tracking technology supplied to the Iranian government by Nokia.

The protesters were unaware of this initially, and many suffered horrendous brutality and torture in Iranian prisons as a result.

The US government made a huge issue about it at the time (probably pure baloney just for appearance)


A famous journalist, Saharkiz, who I think is still in prison, was tracked and arrested and his family have launched legal action against Nokia because of it.

I can assure you this is not a matter to be taken lightly. The complacency of some of the posters on this thread is alarming.

The article mentions, specifically, the camera... which makes no sense. You can be triangulated to within a few dozen meters of your signal's origin going as far back as the old analog phones. With the "pseudo-GPS" used by a lot of phones these days, they track their own location to within several meters and simply relay their location when making a call (if the network is set up to poll for location).

I mean... a little common sense goes a long way. You've got a device on you that connects to a data network. If, at any time, the operators of that network want to find you, they can - provided that device is active and has power. The only "new" thing about it is that newer technology means you don't have to have someone with a degree in physics to actually locate a cell phone signal.

They have nifty little programs for parents, now. Give your kids a cell-phone with parental controls enabled, and pull up a map to see where they are at any time from your phone or computer.

I don't see what the issue is, honestly. Technology is only going to progress and the capability to track and identify people become more difficult to spoof. There's not a whole lot that is going to be able to stop that progress from being made (whether you consider it progress or not).

I simply take comfort in knowing quite a bit about how various electronic and computer systems work and that, at any time, if I deem it necessary; I can make myself disappear.

reply to post by silent thunder

Originally posted by mishigas
It's been several years now that cars have had crash data chips installed in them. So this isn't really a first.

It is a first (that we know of) when one of the world's biggest companies (allegedly) deliberately designs something that ignores customer requests for privacy, even when customers have been told they can opt out. That's a lie.

I want somebody in prison over this. Not likely to happen though.

GM isn't big? And go ahead and try to demand that the chip be disabled next time you rent a car.

Originally posted by mishigas
GM isn't big? And go ahead and try to demand that the chip be disabled next time you rent a car.

GM didn't sell me a car after blatantly lying that if I requested for the chip to be disabled, it would be, following which, according to a sneaky internal plan, they deliberately and with full malace and foresight decided to ignore such requests, illegally.

Why is this point so hard for people to understand in this thread? Why are so many of you hellbent on defending these scumbags and making excuses for them?

The central point is not "they know where you are." The central point is:

1) The company claimed that if you requested it to do something related to personal info, it would.

3 ) In fact, although the company claims this, it deliberately and illegally does the opposite.

See how that works?

reply to post by wcitizen

A famous journalist, Saharkiz, who I think is still in prison, was tracked and arrested and his family have launched legal action against Nokia because of it.

I can assure you this is not a matter to be taken lightly. The complacency of some of the posters on this thread is alarming.

The journalist was tracked down and arrested because of his phone technology? Not because of a bounty offered for his capture? You're sure?

And apparently the journalist did something illegal, to get himself arrested. What exactly did he do?

Half stories can be spun many ways. I'd like to hear the whole story.

First of all every cell phone tracks you, and there is no way to opt out of this. This was an FCC mandate (for 911 calls). Any phone manufacturer or OS supplier that tells you otherwise is full of it. It does not have to be a smart phone even. You most basic no frills phone has a GPS receiver in it. Even if your phone and OS do not allow you the consumer to access it, it is there. Thus when you call 911 the phone can tell them your location even if you are not able to do so.

This has been in place since about 2005, and as far as I know is only a United Sates issue. Other countries may or may not require this, and therefore a phone purchased in another country may not track you. If the phone manufacturers do not include the GPS unit in the cheaper phones sold in other countries, you can go get one of these and use it here in the states, as long as it is a GSM phone, and has the multi band setup to allow the US bands. Doing this will allow you to have a “US” phone with no GPS tracking capability. You can also find an older phone made before this FCC mandate was passed, and use it instead.

However this is sort of moot since your cars, laptops, cameras, IPods, watches, radios, and many other modern items sometimes have the ability to track you. If this is something you really want to get away from, you need to eschew all technology made after 2000 really. You never know what may be lurking in your Teddy Ruxpin these days.

Originally posted by mishigas
reply to post by wcitizen

 

A famous journalist, Saharkiz, who I think is still in prison, was tracked and arrested and his family have launched legal action against Nokia because of it.

I can assure you this is not a matter to be taken lightly. The complacency of some of the posters on this thread is alarming.

The journalist was tracked down and arrested because of his phone technology? Not because of a bounty offered for his capture? You're sure?

And apparently the journalist did something illegal, to get himself arrested. What exactly did he do?

Half stories can be spun many ways. I'd like to hear the whole story.

You're clearly expressiing an opinion based on zero knowledge of the situation. It's off topic, so I won't go into it on this thread. You'll find plenty of information if you do a google search.

Originally posted by byeluvolk
First of all every cell phone tracks you, and there is no way to opt out of this. This was an FCC mandate (for 911 calls). Any phone manufacturer or OS supplier that tells you otherwise is full of it. It does not have to be a smart phone even. You most basic no frills phone has a GPS receiver in it. Even if your phone and OS do not allow you the consumer to access it, it is there. Thus when you call 911 the phone can tell them your location even if you are not able to do so.

This has been in place since about 2005, and as far as I know is only a United Sates issue. Other countries may or may not require this, and therefore a phone purchased in another country may not track you. If the phone manufacturers do not include the GPS unit in the cheaper phones sold in other countries, you can go get one of these and use it here in the states, as long as it is a GSM phone, and has the multi band setup to allow the US bands. Doing this will allow you to have a “US” phone with no GPS tracking capability. You can also find an older phone made before this FCC mandate was passed, and use it instead.

However this is sort of moot since your cars, laptops, cameras, IPods, watches, radios, and many other modern items sometimes have the ability to track you. If this is something you really want to get away from, you need to eschew all technology made after 2000 really. You never know what may be lurking in your Teddy Ruxpin these days.

I've heard that you have to remove the battery to prevent the tracking.

reply to post by wcitizen

In the Iranian protests this was how many protesters got caught...the government was able to track protesters who had mobile phones - tracking technology supplied to the Iranian government by Nokia.

This, is actually something I'd not thought of. A sudden spike in activity on a single tower could indicate the forming of a demonstration that needs to be monitored to help prevent riots.

Generally speaking, if I'm going to go on some kind of crusade and get destructive - I'm going radio silent and depositing my phone in some woman's purse or something. If I'm going to orchestrate some kind of coordinated effort out of this (not likely - I'm generally too intolerant of stupidity to work with all but quite exceptional people) - I'm going to make sure idiots aren't bringing their cell phones along and announcing the # on facebook.

The protesters were unaware of this initially, and many suffered horrendous brutality and torture in Iranian prisons as a result.

Bet they won't show up to an unregistered demonstration, again, with a cell phone and text all of your buddies "Hey, guys, I'm here protesting the brutal totalitarian regime bent on control!"

Hmm...

Sorry - I have no compassion for stupidity. When it occurs in myself, I accept every ounce of reprimand.

I can assure you this is not a matter to be taken lightly. The complacency of some of the posters on this thread is alarming.

And what do you propose be done about it?

If you are sending a signal to me, and I am receiving it, I can track your location. It doesn't matter what method you use. Even some of the best anonymity software you can come across only makes it impractical to track you (but not impossible - a target of a high enough value cannot hide no matter how many times they split up their packets and send them bouncing around the planet). And in the case of FM communication - you can be triangulated simply with two broad-band directional antennas (with as many as exist today and the various synthetic aperture programs out there, they can practically create a map of your room based off of the backscatter of your FM transceiver on your phone, if someone wants to).

The 'scary' thing is that it doesn't take an absolute genius to figure this stuff out. I drew up some schematics back in high school for a "laser microphone" that bounces a laser off of a window and detects the modulation in the signal, decoding it into FM. A similar gadget has recently been deployed in certain markets.

Radio receivers can be set up to map all kinds of crazy stuff you would not have originally thought, using a bunch of assisting computer programs. Ten years ago, it required expensive electronics and even more costly computer hardware with customized software. Today you can run it on a 'stream' architecture (like a DX10+ GPU) with open-source software. The electronics are still pricey - but you can get much more bang for your buck, in that regard.

So... what do you propose be done about it? Place a ban on technology?

About the only thing you can do is educate yourself and be aware of the capabilities out there. A tinfoil hat is no longer sufficient to protect your mind.

reply to post by wcitizen

I've heard that you have to remove the battery to prevent the tracking.

Not necessarily. Placing the phone in "airplane mode" is sufficient. This is a power-saving feature to deal with the nonsense regarding the fear that a cell phone is going to interfere with the function of an aircraft (it's not, unless the thing has lost all grounding and shielding - but that's another argument). The phone, essentially, takes itself "off the grid" and shuts off its transceiver, no longer attempting to communicate with a tower.

Though, I suppose, if the designers/programmers really wanted to, they could implement a "wake" command that could be sent to the phone and picked up by the transceiver (it can still simply 'listen' for a signal without using much power or interfering with anything). However, I have my reservations about just how many 'back doors' there are into your phone.

However, the only way to be certain that your phone will not communicate to anyone is to drain it of power - which can involve simply letting the battery die out or taking the battery out (usually the more convenient option). However, if you are not wanting to be tracked, ditching your phone is the best solution. If you use it, your phone will log-on to the network and reveal your location (this is only an issue if you suspect you, personally, are being looked for). Ditching it removes the temptation to use it. Placing it on some other dynamic object can serve as disinformation - leading anyone tracking you to believe you are someplace other than you really are.

reply to post by wcitizen


Well yes…. You remove the battery and there is no power, thus the GPS shuts off. However the second you power up your phone again, the GPS is back online and tracking.

reply to post by Aim64C


Airplane mode does not disable the GPS, it just disables the phone portion. But in a roundabout way this means your phone can’t send your position to anybody so I guess it is not tracking you. However as soon as you enable the phone again, once more it can send your position to someone.


And most importantly, as you mentioned, is there anybody who really cares where you are, and pings your phone to find out? I suppose if you are a criminal and the police are looking for you maybe. But just to have the police or whoever randomly ping your phone and track your location for no reason is ludicrous.

reply to post by wcitizen

Originally posted by mishigas
reply to post by wcitizen


A famous journalist, Saharkiz, who I think is still in prison, was tracked and arrested and his family have launched legal action against Nokia because of it.

I can assure you this is not a matter to be taken lightly. The complacency of some of the posters on this thread is alarming.



The journalist was tracked down and arrested because of his phone technology? Not because of a bounty offered for his capture? You're sure?

And apparently the journalist did something illegal, to get himself arrested. What exactly did he do?

Half stories can be spun many ways. I'd like to hear the whole story.

You're clearly expressiing an opinion based on zero knowledge of the situation. It's off topic, so I won't go into it on this thread. You'll find plenty of information if you do a google search.

I see. So you're just an alarmist who is unable to withstand the slightest challenge to your position. Can't answer the questions. You expect sensationalism to be enough.

Btw, Iranian journalists are off topic.

When you move from tower to tower, your cell phones identifier is logged, they can track people that way by getting the logs from the cell tower owner / provider, via a sopena. This may not be the issue.

E911 is a feature of cell phone providers to transmit current GPS/GPRS cell tower data to the call center, only when 911 or an emergency call center is contacted that supports this feature. this isnt the issue.

Microsoft added this feature to mine data from its customers (WinMo7 users), with out their consent, for profit, and probably nefarious purposes (helping the government?)

Wow, i would be mad.

Originally posted by Alxandro
We are all prisoners of our own technology.
It's all about balance, if you want convenience you're going to have to sacrifice a little something, somewhere else.
You either play the game or you live like a hermit.

Or You change the rules, create a new game... Get rid of the need for money and all the politicking will diminish to local jurisdiction on a personal level. Poverty will vanish and We all would be able to partake of the abundance this planet has to offer.

Adding plenum energy is the required step to change these rules.

Originally posted by TheSnowman
I'm pretty sure that just about any cell phone you buy these days can be tracked by GPS as long as the battery is in the phone.

edit on 1-9-2011 by TheSnowman because: (no reason given)

This is true - very true. It's the reason that I keep a little piece of tape over my computer webcam - even though that's a whole different level

reply to post by sicksonezer0

Microsoft added this feature to mine data from its customers (WinMo7 users), with out their consent, for profit, and probably nefarious purposes (helping the government?)

This is going to come down to a contract issue. Your ToS with any phone provider pretty much says that you acknowledge and consent to being monitored, to a certain extent, to improve the service. The EULA you agree to for mobile seven or supporting applications claimed to be responsible are likely going to state about the same things.

The court room will simply be deciding whether or not a contract between a company and the customer has the power to void the "right to privacy" (that doesn't exist - but we like to pretend it does, anyway).

Further - most of these phones connect to the internet as though they are individual modems (in fact, that's how -every- phone works, these days - it's all built around a digital network system that is basically identical to the internet). When you use your phone to connect to google - your IP is logged (and your status as a mobile device is logged, as well). Anything you do on their servers is going to be logged and utilized by the owners of those servers. Similarly - connecting to microsoft using your phone is going to do the same thing. They can also backtrack the connection to find out what area you are coming from (this happens when I tether using my phone - area-directed advertising hits the local AT&T node, where AT&T and other ISPs terminate the trace-route).

I mean... it's all really frivolous, really. Anyone with a halfway decent understanding of networks has been able to track your general location since the 70s - before the network as we know it really even existed. Just because it's gotten far larger and more capable does not mean you somehow disappear in the 'fog of events.'

Hell - if I ever get myself in real trouble and some network experts hop on my case, they will be able to have all kinds of fun pulling up forum posts from when I was 14 years old and stupid (and when I am being stupid, now) - and track up all kinds of network activity I'd rather not be confronted with in an interrogation room. It's nothing to do with a totalitarian regime and everything to do with the way digital network technology has always worked. If you are sending and receiving data from someone - there's a record of it. That means all of your pron, all of your forum activity, etc. Sure - you can use programs to make someone's job of digging that sort of stuff more difficult (and even practically impossible given today's capabilities) - but the records are still there should someone have the resources to exploit them.

None of this is anything new. Marketers and researchers have simply begun to more widely exploit the technology, and do so more openly.

As with all technology, the better it is, the more is found to use it for. My new laptop is loaded with LowJack. No way to shut it off. It can even turn on my puter and let them see what it has on it. In an article from Intel, they said all new versions of cpu's will include a 4g section. Always open and waiting. No shutting it off. Not about to let them put a chip in you, no problems, they will just put it in everything else you use.

I'm wondering...without this tracking technology, how can someone from NYC call me on my cell phone when I'm in Alaska or London?