Jon Huntsman's Job Plan - MORE Free Trade...

reply to post by ararisq

See, there is that meme - its a transitory period so slave wage is fine.

Calling a low paying wage a ``slave wage`` is highly offensive.

I guess that period of time we enslaved people was transitory and fine as well? Its not.

Not at all slavery wasn't a transitory period.

There is massive wealth in these nations. This is not transitory. Its a model. They have no intention of allowing certain classes of people to break away and they have a military power to make sure they don't and we're OK with that. If they don't like their wages, kill 'em. I just want my iPad 3!! Whee!

What do you mean by this? Do you not see how fast the Chinese middle class is rising?

If you guys hate free trade so much why are some of you supporting Ron Paul? He's not a fascist.......

Originally posted by Rockdisjoint
You act like trade is a zero sum game, but it's not when two countries trade they both benefit.

I suppose that is why we exported $49,552,800,000 to China and imported $182,965,400,000 so far this year with China, you know so we both benefit.

www.census.gov...

reply to post by Rockdisjoint


You have proven yourself nothing short of a joke. Import tariffs = Fascist? Go troll somewhere else with you absolute nonsense and complete lack of understanding in regards to reality.

reply to post by Misoir

Most of those tariffs are pretty low, there's a huge difference between protectionism and a tariff to generate a bit more govt revenue.......

Calling a low paying wage a ``slave wage`` is highly offensive.

So what do you call it when a worker earns 0.24 per day? Outside of China India has one of the largest menial and manufacturing workforces living in abject poverty on less than one dollar a day in income. Manufacturer's in droves will flock there from the US to take advantage of that.

You can talk all day about trade deficits and imbalances, but this is supposed to be Huntsman's JOBS PLAN, and historically free trade agreements between the US and other nations have caused massive job losses here. This is usually countered with the argument that it creates wealth, which it certainly does, at least for CEOs and business leaders, but none of this transfers down. All we see are more jobs going overseas.

reply to post by Rockdisjoint


Protectionism in the US was generally considered a tariff of 20% or higher. Democrats considered that higher than necessary to fund government operations, Whigs/Republicans considered it low because we needed to protect and grow American industries/workers.

reply to post by Misoir

You have proven yourself nothing short of a joke. Import tariffs = Fascist? Go troll somewhere else with you absolute nonsense and complete lack of understanding in regards to reality.

Not tariffs, per se, but protectionism is fascism.

2nd.

reply to post by Rockdisjoint


What?! Do you even have a clue what you are talking about or just typing things up as you go along? Protectionism dates back to the 18th century American School of Economics which was created as a middle ground between the European idea of Mercantilism and the Adam Smith idea of free-trade. The goal was to foster the atmosphere for the development of America’s infantile industries which could not yet compete with Great Britain’s matured industries. The goal was achieved by the late 19th century with the assistance of the import tariff.

Federalists, Whigs, and Republicans advocated a large import tariff because their base of support and thus representation was in the industrializing Great Lakes, New England, Mid-Atlantic whereas the Democrats (free-traders) were located in the agrarian regions of the South, West, and Great Plains which supported free-trade on the basis that it would allow for easier export of their goods. It was the conflicting ideas dating back to Hamilton-Jefferson where the debate between the future of America as an Agrarian yeoman farmer nation and an Industrialized modernizing nation.

It had absolutely nothing to do with Fascism. If Fascism is related to protectionism it is only that the Fascist idealists brought the idea into their ideology, not the other way around. Perhaps if you understood the roots of Fascism in the ideas of Friedrich Nietzsche whose ideas became popular during the late 19th century, a whole century after the advent of economic protectionism and the American School of Economics.

Get a clue.

reply to post by Misoir

Misoir. There is an old adage you should consider. "A wise man should never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference"

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
reply to post by Misoir

 

Misoir. There is an old adage you should consider. "A wise man should never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference"

Yeah, go ahead laugh at me all you want, but keep in mind none of you have brought up any real arguments against free trade.

``They're stealing our jobs``..........but it's okay for firms in other countries to send jobs here.

``Free Trade is giving Americans cheap products`` ..... If we all only had to pay more for goods and services we'd all be richer, I guess.

``Free trade helps 3rd world countries.``.................... Just send those people aid, how dare they get jobs!

``The employees in 3rd world countries get slave wages`` ................... Lets just disregard the fact that they all got paid nothing before & even American workers had to work for low wages at one point in time.

``Free trade is killing our economy``.................. Although no one complained about free trade before the housing bubble burst and 60% of the job loss during this recession were within the small business sector..... and small businesses sell a lot of stuff overseas.

``Our manufacturing is dieing, thanks to free trade`` .......... Yup, because that's exactly what I want when I finish school, I want to work in a factory making baseball caps. Lets not forget that the U.S still manufactures some stuff, like planes, Jets, cars, boats, heavy equipment, etc.

Seriously though sonofliberty1776, how can you be anti-govt and also anti-free trade? That makes no sense to me.

I'm glad that Huntsman has a Jobs plan a year before he can even do anything about it. Unlike some President who hasn't had a Jobs plan until he talks about a Job plan in a few days three years since he became President!!!

That shows that he has answers for the people and leadership.

Originally posted by Rockdisjoint
``They're stealing our jobs``..........but it's okay for firms in other countries to send jobs here.

It is just as immoral for foreign companies to take jobs away from people and their nation and export them here as it is for our companies to do the same. I do not play by game of hypocrisy, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

``Free Trade is giving Americans cheap products`` ..... If we all only had to pay more for goods and services we'd all be richer, I guess.

Sure, the products are cheaper. I would like to ask anyone to debunk that. The problem here is for the majority of people, the jobs here pay less too. So of course for the higher ranks of society this is a serious benefit but for the working masses it is a scam perpetrated with the mantra of “everything is cheaper” yet forgetting to add “and your job pays less”.

If our main priority today is to have everything cheaper, we have succeeded, but it comes at the cost of not only the available jobs with livable wages but the morality of the issue. I would care more about us having a productive shoe factory than having cheaper shoes. Why? Because it gives people a good paying job with honest work. Perhaps the items cost more but the pay is higher.

``Free trade helps 3rd world countries.``.................... Just send those people aid, how dare they get jobs!

We should neither send them our jobs or our money. They need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. No one gave us our industries, we had to build them ourselves, and so it is just as fair for them. Not only that but it creates the principle which will encourage them to maintain and protect their vital interests. In the long run, creating your own economy by your own entrepreneurs provides for a great satisfaction in the community along with the notion of more self-reliance and pride.

``The employees in 3rd world countries get slave wages`` ................... Lets just disregard the fact that they all got paid nothing before & even American workers had to work for low wages at one point in time.

I never complained about that issue, it is a natural consequence of business expanding into a nation of extraordinarily low GDP and having to build that up. Of course it must begin with what is termed ‘slave labor’ the size of the economy would only permit such wages.

``Free trade is killing our economy``.................. Although no one complained about free trade before the housing bubble burst and 60% of the job loss during this recession were within the small business sector..... and small businesses sell a lot of stuff overseas.

“No one complained”? You mean the complaining was not made mainstream prior to that time. I can promise you, it was being complained about during the ‘90s as free-trade was expanding. Yet that was pushed into the corners of our politics as the computer and cell phone industry booms of Clinton era covered for the collapse of our manufacturing sector. People were complaining about it, they were just pushed into corners.

``Our manufacturing is dieing, thanks to free trade`` .......... Yup, because that's exactly what I want when I finish school, I want to work in a factory making baseball caps. Lets not forget that the U.S still manufactures some stuff, like planes, Jets, cars, boats, heavy equipment, etc.

You cannot just have a knowledge based economy, it cannot work. There must also be a manufacturing sector to said economy. Do you think a doctor would know anything about making his own vehicle? Highly unlikely, he will need someone to build it for him. Rather than just give money to someone in another country he could give that money to someone in his own country to build it for him. This makes his country that much wealthier. You have the doctor who needs a car, a person to sell the car, and a person to make the car. So rather than putting two together and leaving the third one out them should all work together, that makes each one wealthier.

reply to post by Misoir

It is just as immoral for foreign companies to take jobs away from people and their nation and export them here as it is for our companies to do the same. I do not play by game of hypocrisy, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

I'm not debating morality here, we're discussing economics.

Sure, the products are cheaper. I would like to ask anyone to debunk that. The problem here is for the majority of people, the jobs here pay less too.

How do the jobs pay less? U.S wages have not gone down, even during this recession they haven't gone down.

So of course for the higher ranks of society this is a serious benefit but for the working masses it is a scam perpetrated with the mantra of “everything is cheaper” yet forgetting to add “and your job pays less”.

If it wasn't for cheap products from China the U.S middle class would be none existent right now, those cheap goods allow my mom to send me to a good school, they allow us to keep a relatively high standard of living, even during these tough economic times.

If our main priority today is to have everything cheaper, we have succeeded, but it comes at the cost of not only the available jobs with livable wages but the morality of the issue. I would care more about us having a productive shoe factory than having cheaper shoes. Why? Because it gives people a good paying job with honest work. Perhaps the items cost more but the pay is higher.

What if I don't want the high quality and expensive shoe? What if I want the poorly made and affordable shoe from China? Do I not have the right to spend my money on the shoe I want? Or do you think it's okay to force me to buy the shoe made in the U.S?

We should neither send them our jobs or our money. They need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. No one gave us our industries, we had to build them ourselves, and so it is just as fair for them.

You're not even understanding, sure Europe didn't ``give`` us our industries, but they gave us something far greater which is an opportunity to sell U.S made goods to them and that's all India, Brazil, etc wants. Have you ever asked yourself why Chinese citizens don't purchase many U.S made goods?

You cannot just have a knowledge based economy, it cannot work. There must also be a manufacturing sector to said economy.

The differences between what's considered manufacturing and service are completely fallacious and as I stated the U.S still ``manufactures`` some things, just not enough thanks to our monetary problems.

Do you think a doctor would know anything about making his own vehicle? Highly unlikely, he will need someone to build it for him. Rather than just give money to someone in another country he could give that money to someone in his own country to build it for him. This makes his country that much wealthier. You have the doctor who needs a car, a person to sell the car, and a person to make the car. So rather than putting two together and leaving the third one out them should all work together, that makes each one wealthier.

How can you quote the Mises' institute and have economic views like this? They aren't Austrian at all.......

reply to post by Rockdisjoint

How do the jobs pay less? U.S wages have not gone down, even during this recession they haven't gone down.

Yes they have. Wages have declined considerably. In doing my research before deciding to leave my job, I have noticed a serious decline in starting wages for experienced mechanics as an example. Experienced techs in the central Florida area(where I am relocating to) used to make around $20-25/hour on a flat rate. Now for the same level of experience, the starting rate is closer to $12/hour. That is a huge cut. I was also considering the ambulance/emergency vehicle industry(very close to what I was doing). There were at one time 4 manufacturers in that area, there are now 2. Now electricians and hvac technicians(my other 2 trades) have not been hit as hard, but even their starting wages have been reduced.

reply to post by Rockdisjoint

If it wasn't for cheap products from China the U.S middle class would be none existent right now, those cheap goods allow my mom to send me to a good school, they allow us to keep a relatively high standard of living, even during these tough economic times.

If all of our jobs were not outsourced, your mom would be making more money and would not need the cheaper goods.

What if I don't want the high quality and expensive shoe? What if I want the poorly made and affordable shoe from China? Do I not have the right to spend my money on the shoe I want? Or do you think it's okay to force me to buy the shoe made in the U.S?

Sure, buy what you want to buy. However the Chinese shoe(btw, they stole the shoe industry from Brazil who stole it from us) However, without the offshoring of our manufacturing capacity, their sshoe would likely be even more inferior and would cost more.

You're not even understanding, sure Europe didn't ``give`` us our industries, but they gave us something far greater which is an opportunity to sell U.S made goods to them and that's all India, Brazil, etc wants.

Nope, but if we had not adopted protectionist policies we could never have grown competing industries. We could not have competed with their quality and lower prices. They can sell here, but on a level playing field. We have epa and osha regs to comply with plus the highest corporate tax rate in the world. That tax rate is another reason we have lost jobs.

Have you ever asked yourself why Chinese citizens don't purchase many U.S made goods?

They don't have the money because they are either slave labor in Chinese prisons, or paid dirt wages. A big part of that unequal playing field.

The differences between what's considered manufacturing and service are completely fallacious and as I stated the U.S still ``manufactures`` some things, just not enough thanks to our monetary problems.

Sorry my friend, but you have that backwards. Because we do not manufacture much, we have money problems.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776

If all of our jobs were not outsourced, your mom would be making more money and would not need the cheaper goods.

``Our jobs``, what does that even mean? Do you really think my mom wants to work in a factory making trinkets?

Sure, buy what you want to buy.

I wouldn't be able to do that with all you protectionist running around. You protectionist will turn things I take for granted, such as shoes, socks and clothes in to luxuries.

However the Chinese shoe(btw, they stole the shoe industry from Brazil who stole it from us) However, without the offshoring of our manufacturing capacity, their sshoe would likely be even more inferior and would cost more.

Huh? How did they ``steal`` anything? Does the U.S own the shoe industry? The arrogance of Americans is astounding. In order for something to be stolen it must first be owned............

Nope, but if we had not adopted protectionist policies we could never have grown competing industries. We could not have competed with their quality and lower prices. They can sell here, but on a level playing field. We have epa and osha regs to comply with plus the highest corporate tax rate in the world. That tax rate is another reason we have lost jobs.

First off when did we adopt ``protectionist`` policies? Just because, Misoir says something that doesn't make it true. For most of U.S history we have practiced free trade, most notably under FDR on upward until that dumbass Ronald Reagan convinced everyone that we needed regulated free trade.

In the United States, the decade from the mid-1980s to the mid-1990s saw import quotas placed on textiles, agricultural products, automobiles, sugar, beef, bananas, and even underwear among other things. In a single session of Congress in 1985, more than three hundred protectionist bills were introduced as U.S. industries began voicing concern over foreign competition www.answers.com...

We even have free trade with in our borders, states don't have tariffs on one another....

To the latter part of you comment: I find it hilarious that you want every other country to become anti-business simply because the U.S is anti-business, why not just make the U.S business friendly? Then you and Misoir can open up your own manufacturing company, since he lives in Florida.

They don't have the money because they are either slave labor in Chinese prisons, or paid dirt wages. A big part of that unequal playing field.

Sigh..... no, that isn't why they can't purchase more U.S goods. Government intervention is why, via the Fed and other central banks.

1st: The Fed promotes unsustainable consumption by keeping interest rates low, which has helped U.S citizens borrow in order to buy foreign goods.

2nd: This excessive money printing to keep interest rates low has also prevented prices from dropping relative to Chinese prices, which has prevented the Chinese from having greater purchasing power in order to buy U.S goods.

3rd: Foreign central banks have kept their currencies at artificially low exchange rates to the USD by buying U.S Treasury Bonds, basically weakening their currency, keeping their citizens purchasing power artificially low.

Trade quotas, tariffs, domestic tax policies, etc all have zero effect on trade. Trade is determined by monetary flows, but because monetary flows have been distorted because of these government interventions trade is unbalanced.

Even if the U.S had high tariffs, trade quotas, lax business taxes and regulations, while the rest of the world practiced free trade, but had extremely high business taxes and a ton of regulations, the trade balance would stay the same, due to government intervention in monetary flows.

When the world was on a gold standard trade was always balanced.

Back then when the U.S purchased $100 million worth of products from China. The U.S would have now $100 million less in currency and China would have $100 million more. Prices in China would rise disproportionately, while prices in the U.S would fall disproportionately.

This makes it more profitable for consumers in China to purchase products from the U.S, since prices are lower in U.S. The money then travels back to the U.S, completing the cycle of trade and creating a trade balance.

Even under our current system of monetary nationalism, there would still be a trade balance if it wasn't for government intervention.

Sorry my friend, but you have that backwards. Because we do not manufacture much, we have money problems.

The U.S manufactures somethings, I don't see how you can deny that and as I stated before the differences between what's considered ``manufacturing`` and what's considered ``service`` are completely fallacious.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776

Yes they have. Wages have declined considerably. In doing my research before deciding to leave my job, I have noticed a serious decline in starting wages for experienced mechanics as an example. Experienced techs in the central Florida area(where I am relocating to) used to make around $20-25/hour on a flat rate. Now for the same level of experience, the starting rate is closer to $12/hour. That is a huge cut.

I can't take your word on this, do you have a source that corroborates what you're saying? You protectionist types are known to just make crap up.

I was also considering the ambulance/emergency vehicle industry(very close to what I was doing). There were at one time 4 manufacturers in that area, there are now 2. Now electricians and hvac technicians(my other 2 trades) have not been hit as hard, but even their starting wages have been reduced.

This is my main problem with you protectionist types: You hate free trade because you think it helps corporations, but screws the ``working masses`` at the same time you ``working masses`` hate corporations, but as soon as the corporation that's ``exploiting`` you leaves, you people complain about it.

Nothing will ever make your kind happy.......

Start your own company, or something. Stop blaming some guy in China that wants to keep his kids away from prostitution for your lack of entrepreneurship.

reply to post by Misoir

What?! Do you even have a clue what you are talking about or just typing things up as you go along? Protectionism dates back to the 18th century American School of Economics which was created as a middle ground between the European idea of Mercantilism and the Adam Smith idea of free-trade.

Whatever you say dude, I'm not even sure why I'm wasting my time debating with you. You silly republicans have always held these nonsensical mercantilist economic views, from Lincoln to Reagan to Bush and even that Pat Buchanan.

Lets not forget that the Whigs founded the republican party and the Whigs loved corporate welfare, protectionism and central banking, basically merging corporatism, nationalism and statism, you know fascism, as I stated.