They Stole His Body - The Hijacking of Jesus, page 10

@Pthena, last night I was reading preview apges on Amazon, from a book,
Jesus and Paul Reconnected: Fresh Pathways Into an Old Debate
I was reading a couple essays in it, one being, "I Recieved from the Lord . . .": Paul, Jesus and the last supper by Francis Watson.
I think there is something funny about that web site, where one day you may be able to access a preview page, and the next day, not. I went ahead and ordered a used copy for $7.50 that ships from Florida so I should be able to get it soon.
I was going to copy a line from that article but you may be able to read it if you follow the link. What he was doing was making comparisons to how the synoptic version of the last supper is described, to Paul's version. He wonders if the synoptic version was copied from Paul, and if so, what was the reason for the changes. One explanation Watson gives is that Paul was describing as something to be continued as a practice, while the other was making it as a historical event.I think this may be important to my theory that these were opposing theological viewpoints being described as history.

reply to post by jmdewey60

That is all well and good, as far as i am concerned, but it makes me feel ill in that the author seems disappointed and that the purity of the "original" version is tainted.

I haven't read the whole dissertation yet, just intro and conclusion. I'm sure he realizes that his conclusions aren't exactly what his colleagues at International  Enoch  Studies  Conferences or Second Temple Judaism, studies, some of which is sponsored by Israel(see www.jerusalemschool.org...), would approve of.

The Gospel of John never states or implies that Jesus is other than a Galilean, aka Iturean

Judeans probably lived in the Galilee earlier, but it was populated and
governed predominantly by the Itureans, the center of whose kingdom was
in Chalcis in Lebanon. Their origin is obscure—probably Phoenician and
possibly tribal Arab. The territory annexed by Aristobulus stretched from Bet
She'an (Scythopolis) in the south to beyond Giscala in the north—that is, most
of today's Galilee minus the coast. Masses of Itureans, the original inhabitants
of the Galilee, assimilated into the expanding Judean population,

- - Sand, THE INVENTION OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE pg 159

John never states that Jesus is "son of David". No throne, no iron scepter, no hierarchy of rulers over a subject people, no wars of liberation.

My hat off to you OP.

I am sure there is much wisdom to be learned from you.

Something which might be of interest:
True authorship of the New Testament
The Roman Piso homepage

reply to post by jmdewey60

What he was doing was making comparisons to how the synoptic version of the last supper is described, to Paul's version. He wonders if the synoptic version was copied from Paul, and if so, what was the reason for the changes. One explanation Watson gives is that Paul was describing as something to be continued as a practice, while the other was making it as a historical event.

I'm fairly certain that Paul's writing came first. He didn't take it completely out of history though, "On the night that he was betrayed..." that's the context. Paul does not limit the betrayal to Judas alone. That's important to me. Compare John 7: 5 "For even his brothers didn’t believe in him."

6 Jesus therefore said to them, "“My time has not yet come, but your time is always ready. 7 The world can’t hate you, but it hates me, because I testify about it, that its works are evil.

reply to post by pthena

---

John never states that Jesus is "son of David". No throne, no iron scepter, no hierarchy of rulers over a subject people, no wars of liberation.

Also no apocalypse, or not that type we normally think of.
The Jesus of John did not come to judge the world but to save the world, Satan is already condemned, and he has overcome the world.
Last night I was describing a little back and forth between the writings of the various NT books. What I need to add is Revelation was written by the Enoch camp to counter John, by producing an apocalypse that they felt John neglected to add himself.
So you have two sides, the hate and death side, and the love and life side, or more technically perhaps, the Spirit.
One is conquering physical territory, while the other is gathering souls on a spiritual level.
One has blood up to the horse's bridles, and the other is people who are in Christ now, as Jesus has already returned so we can be with him in his father's house.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I need to add is Revelation was written by the Enoch camp to counter John, by producing an apocalypse that they felt John neglected to add himself.

You may also add, that probably after Paul's death, two different Greek students of his forged Ephesians and Colossians in order to bolster his position of opposition to Torah. They can be at least taken as what close students of Paul thought he was getting at as a universal message.

1 Peter was forged by someone familiar with Paul's letters (Romans at least) as a way of watering down Paul to make him and Peter harmonius. 2Peter and Jude were written to magnify Enoch. That just about accounts for the whole New Testament.

and the other is people who are in Christ now, as Jesus has already returned so we can be with him in his father's house.

Already returned: I almost suspect that the only reason John even has a resurrection of Jesus is so that:

John 20: 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "“Receive the Holy Spirit! 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they have been forgiven them. If you retain anyone’s sins, they have been retained.”"

No waiting in Jerusalem like Matthew and Luke. John has them going right back to Galilee.

In my Hellenized Epicurean theology there is no need for resurrection even. His body stayed with us in the bread and wine, and his spirit is with us as the Holy Spirit. see 1Cor. 15:45 'So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.'

reply to post by pthena

---

- - Sand, THE INVENTION OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE pg 159

I had to LOL for about five seconds when I read that, where Sand mentions how there are streets in Israel named after Hyrcanus, something you posted on this forum a while back. The Jewish Titus. This is the sort of mentality I think I am looking at as I see agendas being pushed today. There is a physical war and simultaneously, an ideological war. This is what I meant last night when I said there is a war and also right in our Bible, with one side pushing for that physical war and like the old saying goes, all is fair, including writing books in the name of the Apostles after they are dead.

reply to post by pthena

---

I'm sure he realizes that his conclusions aren't exactly what his colleagues at International Enoch Studies Conferences or Second Temple Judaism, studies, some of which is sponsored by Israel(see www.jerusalemschool.org...), would approve of.

That is weird, at least to me, that web site you linked to. Notice how it says, "Christian scholars" which someone looking at it in an unsuspecting way, might assume means, Christians who are scholars, instead of what it looks like to me, Jews who study Christianity.
This is the thing that people need to be aware of is that there are people who study the NT night and day, not because they believe it, but want to figure out how to subvert it.

reply to post by jmdewey60

there are people who study the NT night and day, not because they believe it, but want to figure out how to subvert it.

I added some to my last post, you might want to read that over again.

We've seen on the forum how it's done. Magnify Yeshua the typical Jewish Rabbi, who preached Torah, Torah, Torah. Then denigrate Paul as a Jew hater and subverter of all things wonderful (Torah). Then at the same time make Paul into a Zionist dispensationalist. Meanwhile, the land grab continues to push out real descendants of 1st Century Judeans and Galileans. And whoever controls the politicians and preachers controls the world.

reply to post by pthena

---

You may also add, that probably after Paul's death, two different Greek students of his forged Ephesians and Colossians in order to bolster his position of opposition to Torah. They can be at least taken as what close students of Paul thought he was getting at as a universal message.

I really haven't gone much further than to be rather certain they were forgeries but right now I think it would not be a good idea to disregard them altogether on that ground alone. I don't know if there are any good books on why the creation of those letters was a good thing. Something I should look into since I seem to always be rummaging around on Amazon.

reply to post by Falcifer

I read part of the piece you linked to. I don't think that there was a single coup that resulted in the New Testament. It was a continuing battle as mentioned in the last couple of pages in this thread.

The people who want to control and rule over other people seize upon ideologies of Messiahism (dictatorship), and elitism. People more concerned with the well being of all emphasize equality of standing in the Spirit.

The struggle continues.

@ Pthena, I looked through a lot of books on Colossians and Ephesians and was not impressed and then ran into my old buddy Wedderburn who teamed up with Andrew Lincoln to do a commentary on those two letters.
Here is an excerpt from the one reader review on Amazon:
". . .a move away from the authentic Pauline dialectic concerning the Jewish law and Gentiles to a more thoroughly Hellenistic setting concerned with spiritual entities and realities. The author of Colossians (whom he maintains is probably not Paul, though not with absolute certainty) utilizes the opening christological hymn displaying the cosmic nature of its subject to explain the exalted Lord of Christian faith as the cosmic Christ, to whom all things are in subjagation. This theme, along with the household code found at the end of the letter, dominates the discussion throughout.
Through it, Wedderburn produces a thought provoking discussion of Colossians' theology. Two aspects in particular I enjoyed. First, he contrasts Colossians reinterpretation of the Pauline message afresh for the issues of his day with the almost reactionary character found in the Pastoral letters (and even suggests that the Pastorals could have been written against such a view)."
This is probably as good a book as I am going to find in this short amount of time. I ordered a used copy of The Theology of the Later Pauline Letters from South Carolina which is really close.

reply to post by pthena

---

Yes sir, I do get your point.

How sad it is when thinking how things could have been, we could have had heaven on earth...

reply to post by pthena

---

In my Hellenized Epicurean theology there is no need for resurrection even. His body stayed with us in the bread and wine, and his spirit is with us as the Holy Spirit. see 1Cor. 15:45 'So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.'

I did look at that verse and I need to look at it some more. My way of dealing with a verse like that is to like make a table to analyze the sentence structure. That only gets me so far. There is something going on at a spiritual level that I have gotten as far as realizing there is.
I have a sort of fuzzy Idea that there is a sort of time slip that makes a lot of things we concern ourselves with, rather irrelevant. The mechanics of it not being discernible is what "spirit" is, by definition.
Glad you are working on the thought process because I have some doubt about my own capability to have a working solution.

The Truth About the Garden of Eden Story
  Posted 8 days ago with 49 member flags

Was Jesus a Greek-Phoenician Philosopher? A hidden book, revealed…
  Posted 1 days ago with 27 member flags

The Mormon Church is a Cult
  Posted 11 days ago with 23 member flags

Google Earth proves Muhammad-Islam
  Posted 1 days ago with 22 member flags

Where is the gospel of jesus?
  Posted 2 days ago with 18 member flags

Who killed the prophet Muhammad? A 1400 year old murder mystery.
  Posted 16 days ago with 16 member flags

Quake Reveals Day of Jesus\' Crucifixion
  Posted 4 days ago with 12 member flags

The talk too controversial for TED to post...
  Posted 12 days ago with 9 member flags

Newest topics, updated in real-time:

Newest topics getting flags, in real-time:

Newest topics getting replies, in real-time: