2004 World's Best Air Forces?

My list would the obvious - the USAF first - Awsome planes and plenty of them.

RuAF - Highlights include 450 Su-27 getting upgraded to SM standard, 400 Mig-29s getting upgraded to SMT standard, and 400 Mig-31s. That's a force to be reckoned with.

Probably followed by Indian AF and RAF, but I do not know the numbers of there forces. After that maybe the Swedish airforce. The older Viggen can be supported by a ground crew of three not including pilot, and can take off from mobile highways giving them an outstanding ability to survive a Nuclear war. As far as I know, the Gripen is the same.

reply to post by sweatmonicaIdo

weatmonicaIdo, those Su-30s were brand new, fitted with the best of the best Russian technologies. You know what they were against? Very old F-15s built and/or upgraded over 20 years ago with no upgrades since. It would be an embarrassment for the Indians AND Russians if they were to loose to 20 year old American gear. If it had been against the newer AN/APG-63v3 AESA and different conditions (NOT 12 to 4) it may well of been a diferant story.

Russian aircraft are not necessarily better in combat missions, and an example of this is the horrible Slot Back radar on early Flankers which could only engage one target at a time. Ouch. The Eagle can intercept... 4 if I'm not mistaken. The N001 in the RuAF has only recently been upgraded to the N001VE which is still not a drastic improvement over the Slotback.

Thanks.

[edit on 8/9/07 by JimmyCarterIsSmarter]

First, learn to edit.
Second, your list has several flaws I'll address later.
Three, the Japanese are ranked higher than the Brits..

1. Active duty US Air Force
2. Guard US Air Force
3. Reserve US Air Force
4. US Navy Air force
5. US Army Air Force

My top 5 picks

Actually after number one everything gets confused a little but I'd still rate the Japs higher that the brits. They are the biggest users of F-15 outside of USAF(i believe) with well over 200 of them, all of the highest tech standard, supported by 10 E-2, operated by a technologically leading country, their excellent personnell vs. over 200 tornado, with over 100 adv variant which is not exactly seen as a world beater asf platform by a lot of experts, good but no way better than f-15 in terms of asf and ad performance, but they do have formidable E warfare assets, ef2k is only now coming online and whatever little number of them they have doesn't change they equation, as it stands right now, RAF is mostly a Strike air force not ad or asf and that IMHO makes them unbalanced.

But in hindsight i'd rate Luftwaffe lower then the RAF. But the Japanese still slightly edges them out.

This is in reply to Iblis.

[edit on 8-9-2007 by sunzhu123]

reply to post by JimmyCarterIsSmarter


why would u rate IAF over israel, french, japanese afs. As it stand right now what is the big distinction between the chinese and the indian af?

true viggens are good but still old and therefore in many ways outdated. Sweden doesn't have enough numbers of planes or enogh numbers of late model planes to be at number 5. imho.

one line reply I'm afraid, but the Viggen is no longer in service.

reply to post by waynos


I thought they still kept a few viggen AD version and some recce version last time i checked. Do u have any info if sweden kept any viggens in reserve. It's a shame, those were good planes.

reply to post by sunzhu123

I suppose I should say that my list was a very rough one, notice the 'probably' start of the second paragraph? Russian would definitely be second though.

reply to post by waynos


Yeah I know.... But the Gripen was designed for low maintainence and short runways too, which makes Sweden up there.... somewhere, maybe not in the top 5 but pretty damn good.

Tata.

[edit on 8/9/07 by JimmyCarterIsSmarter]

reply to post by JimmyCarterIsSmarter


NP, I had to wrestle between israel and russia in number 2 spot, russia even though they are coming along fine, their sir force state is still pretty low relatively, pilot skills are not where it was or should be and also their systems are still backward compared to western systems esp. electronic wise. vs. 300 f-15/f-16, top fighter piolts in the world, excellent e warfare capability, excellent support, decades of front line experience. as lessons from previous air wars has shown , veitnam vs. us, vietnam vs. china, israel arb wars, pakistan-india wars, difference between israel and russian af gives israel a better chance.

Sweden defnititely belongs somewhere along in the top ten area or at least very close to it.

[edit on 9-9-2007 by sunzhu123]

[edit on 9-9-2007 by sunzhu123]

Originally posted by sunzhu123
I WAS JUST GOOGLING KILLING TIME AND STUBLED BY YOURR SITE. So here goes, I know i'm 3 years late but i just gotta say, I'm kinda surprised by some "experts" over here.
quote#!: India has ggreat pilots. It's very hard for a 3rd world country to have enough fuel, spares and support systems to keep pilots in constant practice. ...lol

So here's the deal, I formally invite you to India(More Jane Goody rhetoric, pardon me) to get an inside indepth view at logistics and training command here at the IAF. I will host you here and try and get you a debrief with the concerned IAF authorities.
I haven't extended this gesture to any ATS member in the last 3 years that I have been here, but I see a necessity in this case. No amount of online links and info sources will help in this case I believe.

Please let me know if and when you're travelling.

quote#2: Indian su-27 beat us f-15 in cope exercise, if u can call it that. us f-15 without aesa radar, can't use the missile's self homing, have to guide it in all the way (therefore not in fire and forget mode) which eans a range of only 30 miles, no e warfare help, no awacs, only 4 f-15 vs. 3 mig-21, 3mig-27, 3 m2k, 3 suk-30, able to use thier best weapns and radars, simulated awacs and electronic warfare help. etc etc. for the sake of the IAF I hope in the next war with pakistan, the paf operate under the rules of Cope exercise.

1. The Su-30s were a base level model and did not operate the current operational PESA N011m Bars radar.
   
2. The current opertional Su-30MKI is more advanced than that version by leaps and bounds. Please feel free to ask for the details.
   
3. Nobody said that the IAF formations used their best weapons.Did you pull that one out of your hat? Or from elsewhere..and as for the force ratios,are you familiar DACT?
   
4. what is this m2k? Su-30 M2k? Please clarify
   
5. The simulated AWACS did not provide AEW and targeting information for the IAF jets. IT was a simulated entity in the exercise which the IAF had to tactically protect. It was a dead asset. Why? Because the IAF is slated to get 3 Phalcon AWCAS a/c this year and they wanted to learn AWACS protection from the more knowledgeable Americans.
   
6. For the Sake of the PAF and Pakistan, I hope there is no war between India and Pakistan, not now atleast. If an allout open war were to break out,say tomorrow, then current tactical and strategic scenarios created by think tanks foresee complete IAF fixed wing air superiority over Pakistani skies in a minimum of 4-5 days and a max of a fortnight.
   

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsSmarter
RuAF - Highlights include 450 Su-27 getting upgraded to SM standard, 400 Mig-29s getting upgraded to SMT standard, and 400 Mig-31s. That's a force to be reckoned with.

So is that 1980s-90s vintage MiG-29 ariframes getting updated?

That's a complete avionics,engine,radar overhaul. Do the old airframes accomodate the new TVC engines? Im not soo sure..

agree with titus...usa,russia,china and france,england

My list is the following

US
-The worlds largest air force
-leading techneical development in areospace since the cold war
-most advanced weoponry in in airplanes
-only country with gen 5 air craft
*do i need to go any furthur?*

France
-Some of the most best tech in airspace area
-Built some of the most powerful and most famous airplanes in the latter half of the 19th century
-One of the three countries that all the other countries that cant make their own aircraft they come to ,to buy aircarft

Russia:
-Think about it if a country dosent buy airplanes from the us or france who do they go to you know it its russia
-Us and russia have been after world war II the two countries fighting each other two creating to create more and more powerfull aircraft
-One of the only countries able to create aircraft that beat the U.S aircraft
(not now but in the past,maybe the future you never know)
-Sukhio-35 is powerful and working with india for a 5 generation stealth fighter

Britian
-I couldent put them any lower ,they are quiet powerfull and i put them above isreal because isreal hasent created its own air craft since the 80's and the raf has been doing quiet well
-Thyphoon is mad cool!
-

Isreal
-The most pwerfull air force in the middle east and still getting more powerfull while creting some very powerfull engines and some of the best air to air and air to ground missiles in the world


India
-Some of you might differ because you haven't heard much about them but they are quite powerful and in my opinion are more powerfull than than the chinese
-fourth largest air force in the world
-about to have tejas go in to production, second airplane ever made by the country (camparable to the gripen and f-16 eagle) "cheapest,smallest,lightest multirole aircraft ever built
-working with russia for a 5th generation fighter while working on their own 5th generation fighter

China
-Iwould have put china lower but they have queit the air force
in numbers and thats about all
-all airplanes are balated and need modernization
-and most are cheap copies of russian planes (look it up it is true)
-Thier latest airplane is also a based on the a russion aircraft and the original russian air craft is still better then what china atemped to create "with" pakistan i say that because if you check on the general info pakistan had nothing to do with it i am not pretty sure the only thing they was pay some cash to have their name written on it

Japan
-Great air force but unfortunatly very small but still very advanced if it was bigger it could surpess china
-always had very advanced aircraft check the japanese zero the F-22 of the day


There really isent any other air force thats good enough to put here most dont even have their own tech nologies except some other european nations i forget to on my list i am sorry if anybody differs please speak and please dont have blind claims if you have something to say back it up with proof

I would like to point out that some of you are basing this on Manpower and Technology when it should really be based upon Pilot Skill and Tactics. So here would be my list for 2008:

1. Israel (Great pilots, an unbeaten air record, and near-unbreakable tactics)
2. India (Also has great pilots, great air record and all-round tactics)
3. U.S.A. (Sure, everyone thinks they're the best at everything. But where did they get that eh? Most of their Aircraft have even the tiniest help from foreign countries)
4. Australia
5. Britain
6. France
7. Germany
8. Russia
9. Sweden
10. Japan

Yes, I'm not counting China in this due to the fact that the only great superiority the Chinese have in the air is that they have the largest (larger than the U.S.A., deal with it) Air Force in the world.

These are the the top 10
1) U.S(They have money, numbers, good pilots and great technolgy)
2)U.K(good piolots, ok aircafraft soon to improve greatly e.g eurofighter jsf 32 ,a bit of money gud technology and also a great relationship with the U.S. and a lot exp)
3)Russia (lack funds but 20 years time theyll be a threat again, great aircraft the upcoming s.u , good pilots)
4)Israel (The country with the most experience in the air am talking dogfighting, good piolots,good funds great patorism cus they are hated by every arab and are proud of the airforce) these top 4 are all very patriotic and well trained and have had many experience and wud probly die for the country in the heart beat.

The others that desrve a very well done mention are:
5)France(all round good)
6)Germany(all round good)
7)India(up and coming very larged and well funded)
8)Australia(Base Forces on the British with amercian aircrat deadly combo but very small if bigger they wud be higher up the table)
9)south Korea (always left out)
10)Up and coming China
These are my opinions and wud like to know yours please fell free to correct me.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
I would like to point out that some of you are basing this on Manpower and Technology when it should really be based upon Pilot Skill and Tactics. So here would be my list for 2008:

1. Israel (Great pilots, an unbeaten air record, and near-unbreakable tactics)

Going up against 3 world airforces makes up Ubreakable/beatable, than Russia/ England are the kings of the hill for what they did in WW2 Isreal has only went up against 3 world nations, lets be real here they bomber 2/3 of Egypts airforce when it was on thier "coffee break" back in 67, not a true 200 vs. 200 A2A ingagment.

2. India (Also has great pilots, great air record and all-round tactics)
3. U.S.A. (Sure, everyone thinks they're the best at everything. But where did they get that eh? Most of their Aircraft have even the tiniest help from foreign countries)
4. Australia
5. Britain
6. France
7. Germany
8. Russia
9. Sweden
10. Japan

Yes, I'm not counting China in this due to the fact that the only great superiority the Chinese have in the air is that they have the largest (larger than the U.S.A., deal with it) Air Force in the world.

I can only laugh on " IAF fixed wing air superiority over Pakistani skies in a minimum of 4-5 days and a max of a fortnight".

According to bahratraksha.com (the official Indian Defense site) IAF lost 75 birds in Indo-Pak war of 1965 & again 75 birds (what a similarity in stats) in 1971 Bangladesh Civil war while PAF lost only 24 & 43 respectively.
Please visit the following link see by yourself.
www.bharat-rakshak.com...

USA - Aviation week & space technology - December 1968 issue.
"For the PAF, the 1965 war was as climatic as the Israeli victory over the Arabs in 1967. A further similarity was that Indian air power had an approximately 5:1 numerical superiority at the start of the conflict. Unlike the Middle East conflict, the Pakistani air victory was achieved to a large degree by air-to-air combat rather than on ground. But it was as absolute as that attained by Israel.

Not to mention PAF claim of 117 air kills against IAF in 1965 war. According to the autobiography of Gen. Chuck Yeager (yes, the one who broke the sound barrier), who 'refereed' the 1971 war and flew up and down the region collecting wreckage of IAF aircraft shot down by the PAF. Here is what he says, "the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio knocking out 102 Indian jets and losing 34 of their own. I am certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks, documented them by serial numbers, identified the components such as engines and rocket pods"

PAF also sent its pilots to many Arab nations during the Six-Day War recording 3 confirmed kills against the Israeli Air Force without losing any of their own plane.

During Yom Kippur War During the war 16 PAF pilots volunteered to go to the Middle East in order to support Egypt and Syria but by the time they arrived, Egypt had already been pushed into a ceasefire. Syria remained in a state of war against Israel. Eight (8) PAF pilots started flying out of Syrian Airbases; they formed the A-flight of 67 Squadron at Dumayr Airbase. The Pakistani pilots flew Syrian Mig-21 aircraft conducting CAP missions for the Syrians & shoot down an Israeli Mirage in air combat.

PAF has also fought & has scored ten air kills against Soviet Air force during Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan.

PAF is going to induct followings in its inventory.

* 36J-10A/B Vanguard fighters from China
* 37 F-16A/B Block 15OCU MLU-3 Fighting Falcon (ex-Peace Gate III/IV aircraft) from United States
* 18 F-16C/D Block 52 Fighting Falcon from United States, with an option for another 18
* 250 JF-17 Thunder
* 6 Saab 2000 Erieye AWACS + 1 Training Aircraft
* 4 IL-78 Midas Air-to-Air Refueling Aircraft
* 12 C-130H w/6 reserve C-130H Medium Lift Transport Aircraft
* 80+ K-8 Intermediate Jet Trainer[47]
* 120 Shenyang J-11B from China (Chinese SU-35)

* 500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles.
* 300 SD-10 Beyond-Visual-Range Air-to-Air Missiles.
* 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Within Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles.
* 300 AIM-9M-1/2 Within Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles.(UPGRADED TO AIM-9M-8/9 STANDARD)
* 500 PL-9C Within Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles.
* 300 Harpoon Block II Anti-Ship Missile
* JDAM
* 18 targeting pods.
they already have home developed Cruise missile Ra'ad for stand-off attack.

My list of world's best Air forces (in terms of pilot skill)

1- Pakistan Air Force (considering their limited resources & impressive combat record)
2- Israeli Air Force
3- USAF

i have no idea about other Air Forces but above have proved themselves in real combat.

why Pakistan Air Force?

UK - Air International - November - 1991
" the average PAF pilot is almost certainly possessed of superior skills when compared with, say, an average American pilot. As to those who are rated above average, they compare favorably to the very best "

"man in the cockpit and his experience, which mattered the most in an air combat situation, and not the aircraft being flown." Chuck Yeager


[edit on 1-7-2008 by Captian Neo]

reply to post by Daedalus3


I can only laugh on " IAF fixed wing air superiority over Pakistani skies in a minimum of 4-5 days and a max of a fortnight".

According to bahratraksha.com (the official Indian Defense site) IAF lost 75 birds in Indo-Pak war of 1965 & again 75 birds (what a similarity in stats) in 1971 Bangladesh Civil war while PAF lost only 24 & 43 respectively.
Please visit the following link see by yourself.
www.bharat-rakshak.com...

USA - Aviation week & space technology - December 1968 issue.
"For the PAF, the 1965 war was as climatic as the Israeli victory over the Arabs in 1967. A further similarity was that Indian air power had an approximately 5:1 numerical superiority at the start of the conflict. Unlike the Middle East conflict, the Pakistani air victory was achieved to a large degree by air-to-air combat rather than on ground. But it was as absolute as that attained by Israel.

Not to mention PAF claim of 117 air kills against IAF in 1965 war. According to the autobiography of Gen. Chuck Yeager (yes, the one who broke the sound barrier), who 'refereed' the 1971 war and flew up and down the region collecting wreckage of IAF aircraft shot down by the PAF. Here is what he says, "the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio knocking out 102 Indian jets and losing 34 of their own. I am certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks, documented them by serial numbers, identified the components such as engines and rocket pods"

PAF also sent its pilots to many Arab nations during the Six-Day War recording 3 confirmed kills against the Israeli Air Force without losing any of their own plane.

During Yom Kippur War During the war 16 PAF pilots volunteered to go to the Middle East in order to support Egypt and Syria but by the time they arrived, Egypt had already been pushed into a ceasefire. Syria remained in a state of war against Israel. Eight (8) PAF pilots started flying out of Syrian Airbases; they formed the A-flight of 67 Squadron at Dumayr Airbase. The Pakistani pilots flew Syrian Mig-21 aircraft conducting CAP missions for the Syrians & shoot down an Israeli Mirage in air combat.

PAF has also fought & has scored ten air kills against Soviet Air force during Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan.

PAF is going to induct followings in its inventory.

* 36J-10A/B Vanguard fighters from China
* 37 F-16A/B Block 15OCU MLU-3 Fighting Falcon (ex-Peace Gate III/IV aircraft) from United States
* 18 F-16C/D Block 52 Fighting Falcon from United States, with an option for another 18
* 250 JF-17 Thunder
* 6 Saab 2000 Erieye AWACS + 1 Training Aircraft
* 4 IL-78 Midas Air-to-Air Refueling Aircraft
* 12 C-130H w/6 reserve C-130H Medium Lift Transport Aircraft
* 80+ K-8 Intermediate Jet Trainer[47]
* 120 Shenyang J-11B from China (Chinese SU-35)

* 500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles.
* 300 SD-10 Beyond-Visual-Range Air-to-Air Missiles.
* 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Within Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles.
* 300 AIM-9M-1/2 Within Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles.(UPGRADED TO AIM-9M-8/9 STANDARD)
* 500 PL-9C Within Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles.
* 300 Harpoon Block II Anti-Ship Missile
* JDAM
* 18 targeting pods.
they already have home developed Cruise missile Ra'ad for stand-off attack.

My list of world's best Air forces (in terms of pilot skill)

1- Pakistan Air Force (considering their limited resources & impressive combat record)
2- Israeli Air Force
3- USAF

i have no idea about other Air Forces but above have proved themselves in real combat.

why Pakistan Air Force?

UK - Air International - November - 1991
" the average PAF pilot is almost certainly possessed of superior skills when compared with, say, an average American pilot. As to those who are rated above average, they compare favorably to the very best "

"man in the cockpit and his experience, which mattered the most in an air combat situation, and not the aircraft being flown." Chuck Yeager

Originally posted by Captian Neo
I can only laugh on " IAF fixed wing air superiority over Pakistani skies in a minimum of 4-5 days and a max of a fortnight".

And why is that?
It is important to note that as of today (and this will change by 2010), absolutely no PAF aircraft has operational BVR missile capability, as opposed to over 300 IAF aircraft.
So this means that if war was to break out today, or tomorrow, or in a year from now even, the PAF would :

1)not be able to conduct interdiction sorties beyond forward Indian installations (200km).

2)not be able to provide CAP/CAS at distances closer than 50km to the border. This instantaneously means air supremacy and therefore ground supremacy in that region. Once air supremacy in that region is achieved, the next 50-100km will be invalidated due to the BVR umbrella possessed by IAF aircraft. This pattern will inevitably continue till PAF aircraft are forced to scramble in order to protect strategic targets, or until they move essential aircraft beyond sovereign Pakistani soil (note that PAF Star fighters were moved to Iran in 71, to avoid strikes by the IAF). In either case air superiority in a week and supremacy in a fortnight is quite difficult to deny in such circumstances.

According to bahratraksha.com (the official Indian Defense site) IAF lost 75 birds in Indo-Pak war of 1965 & again 75 birds (what a similarity in stats) in 1971 Bangladesh Civil war while PAF lost only 24 & 43 respectively.
Please visit the following link see by yourself.
www.bharat-rakshak.com...

Well its not an 'official' site per say, but Indian military enthusiasts, 'space cadets', and 'over enthusiasts' do frequent there. One can glean good information from there though.
Your figures for the 65 and 71 war are quite accurate; no denying that. Reasons behind those figures are :

1) PAF pilots were not pushovers; PAF tactical air command was certainly quite adept at drawing lines of Combat Air defense, CAP and CAS.

2)Most air battles were fought over Pakistanis territory with the PAF mostly doing CAD/CAP/CAS. There were very little interdiction and deep strike missions carried out by the PAF. This gave the PAF a definite regime of air combat, with simple boundaries. It was a controlled environment. The IAF on the other hand flew large amounts of deep interdiction sorties, most of them were either fighter-bombers (Hawker Hunter, De Havilland Vampire, Dassault Mystere, Sukhoi Su-7) or bombers (Canberra) that flew with little or no interceptor support (Folland Gnat etc) purely because these small aircraft did not have the range for deep interdiction CAS.
You will notice that a majority of the aircraft shot down in air combat were either PAF F-86 Sabres shooting down IAF fighter-bombers or bombers on deep interdiction missions.

However this air war victory by the PAF seriously jeopardized the overall war
objective due to lack of CAS/CAP for the Pakistan armored and infantry divisions. Scores of tanks and troops fell to repeated strafes and bomb runs by IAF fighter-bombers and bombers. Ground losses by the Pakistani army due to Air attacks by the IAF reached astronomical values.
There were many rifts that were created between the Pak army and the PAF due to this lack of CAP/CAS to the Pak Army.

Though there was a heavy loss of deep interdiction fighter bomber/bomber aircraft (mostly on the return) for the IAF, these interdiction missions caused heavy industrial and military infrastructural damage to the Pakistani ground installations and supply chains. This eventually resulted in Pakistani Armored movements to be severely impaired or even irreparably halted.

The end result of the 65 war was that India held fertile regions of Lahore, Sialkot and Kashmir (~700 sq miles) while Pakistan held desert regions of Chhamb, Kutcch, and Thar (~200 sq miles).
Indian armored divisions had marched past the Ichogil canal and into Lahore, while Pakistan did not hold any major Indian city at seige.
Pakistan lost over half its armor, while India did not lose more than a fourth of what it committed to the war.

The end result of the 71 war was the separation of East Pakistan from its western counterpart, and the birth of Bangladesh and hence effective loss of 55,000 sq miles of territory.

USA - Aviation week & space technology - December 1968 issue.
"For the PAF, the 1965 war was as climatic as the Israeli victory over the Arabs in 1967. A further similarity was that Indian air power had an approximately 5:1 numerical superiority at the start of the conflict. Unlike the Middle East conflict, the Pakistani air victory was achieved to a large degree by air-to-air combat rather than on ground. But it was as absolute as that attained by Israel.

Not 5:1 but 3:1. In any case the IAF a/c deployed on the Pakistani side were proportional , i.e. 1:1 or 1.5:1 due to the IAF requiring precautionary deployments on the Chinese border especially during the 71 war.

One must also note that all American publications were quite supportive of Pakistan during the 65 and 71 wars, purely because the Americans were openly supporting the Pakistani cause. This was to the extent of calling the USN 74th task force on its way back from Yankee station Nam' Ops to the Bay of Bengal for strategic nuclear posturing against Indian forces liberating Bangladesh.
So American publications (as all propagandistic publications in any war) do tend to be a little biased from that era, esp regarding Indo-Pak conlficts.

Anyhooo, an analogous comparison to Israel is flawed as Israel won those wars due to a comparable and equally commendable effort by its armored and infantry corps (read Ariel Sharon amongst others)

Not to mention PAF claim of 117 air kills against IAF in 1965 war. According to the autobiography of Gen. Chuck Yeager (yes, the one who broke the sound barrier), who 'refereed' the 1971 war and flew up and down the region collecting wreckage of IAF aircraft shot down by the PAF. Here is what he says, "the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio knocking out 102 Indian jets and losing 34 of their own. I am certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks, documented them by serial numbers, identified the components such as engines and rocket pods"

True. Chuck Yeager was in face serving as the Air Attache at the American Embassy in Islamabad, and personally interrogated (most amicably of course ) IAF pilot PoWs on new Soviet aircraft in the IAF (namely Su-7, MiG-21 FL etc etc.) that the Americans didn't have much on.
Moreover, Chuck Yeager is known to have had a personal grudge against the
IAF because the latter seems to have totally destroyed his personal aircraft (beechcraft/cessna?)
during one of those deep interdiction raids at Sargodha(or was it Chaklala? :puz
All's fair in love and war. Obviously there were no personal intentions behind the destruction, it was a part of the raid on that airbase .

PAF also sent its pilots to many Arab nations during the Six-Day War recording 3 confirmed kills against the Israeli Air Force without losing any of their own plane.

True. True.

During Yom Kippur War During the war 16 PAF pilots volunteered to go to the Middle East in order to support Egypt and Syria but by the time they arrived, Egypt had already been pushed into a ceasefire. Syria remained in a state of war against Israel. Eight (8) PAF pilots started flying out of Syrian Airbases; they formed the A-flight of 67 Squadron at Dumayr Airbase. The Pakistani pilots flew Syrian Mig-21 aircraft conducting CAP missions for the Syrians & shoot down an Israeli Mirage in air combat.

Not sure about this, but yes, the PAF contribution to the Arab-Israeli wars was significant.


continued in next post.....

[edit on 2-7-2008 by Daedalus3]

PAF has also fought & has scored ten air kills against Soviet Air force during Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan.

Yes but, those were actually shared between the Afghan Air Force (DRAAF)
and the Soviet Airforce.
Also in all cases here, considerably superior PAF aircraft (F-16 A/B, Mirage-IIIC ) were pitted against inferior DRAAF or Soviet AF aircraft (Su-22, Su-24).
There some comparable aircraft that did get into the fray with PAF F-16s, namely VVS MiG23-MLDs, but the engagements never bore are kills except for on PAF F-16 fratricide.

PAF is going to induct followings in its inventory.
* 36J-10A/B Vanguard fighters from China
* 37 F-16A/B Block 15OCU MLU-3 Fighting Falcon (ex-Peace Gate III/IV aircraft) from United States
* 18 F-16C/D Block 52 Fighting Falcon from United States, with an option for another 18
* 250 JF-17 Thunder
* 6 Saab 2000 Erieye AWACS + 1 Training Aircraft
* 4 IL-78 Midas Air-to-Air Refueling Aircraft
* 12 C-130H w/6 reserve C-130H Medium Lift Transport Aircraft
* 80+ K-8 Intermediate Jet Trainer[47]
* 120 Shenyang J-11B from China (Chinese SU-35)

* 500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles.
* 300 SD-10 Beyond-Visual-Range Air-to-Air Missiles.
* 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Within Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles.
* 300 AIM-9M-1/2 Within Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles.(UPGRADED TO AIM-9M-8/9 STANDARD)
* 500 PL-9C Within Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles.
* 300 Harpoon Block II Anti-Ship Missile
* JDAM
* 18 targeting pods.
they already have home developed Cruise missile Ra'ad for stand-off attack.

And with good reason too, for the IAF/IN is slated to induct :

~200 Su-30 MKI (Irbis PESA)
~126 MMRCA AESA
~40-200 MRCA LCA Tejas
~6 Phalcon stationary dome AWACS
upgrade ~50 Mirage 2000s to Mk 2k5
upgrade 60+ MiG29s to Zhuk AE radar
~30-50 MiG 29K (IN)
~10-20 PAK-FA (circa 2020 and ~100 circa 2025; doubt much of the above PAF induction would be completed before 2020.)

This in addition to this, the DRAAF would now be revitalized with ~200 aircraft which would most definitely be of the F-16 blk 50 standard at least. It suffices to say that the relations between Afghanistan and Pakistan and not amicable right now, perhaps even worse than current Indo-Pak relations.

My list of world's best Air forces (in terms of pilot skill)

1- Pakistan Air Force (considering their limited resources & impressive combat record)
2- Israeli Air Force
3- USAF

i have no idea about other Air Forces but above have proved themselves in real combat.

why Pakistan Air Force?

UK - Air International - November - 1991
" the average PAF pilot is almost certainly possessed of superior skills when compared with, say, an average American pilot. As to those who are rated above average, they compare favorably to the very best "

"man in the cockpit and his experience, which mattered the most in an air combat situation, and not the aircraft being flown." Chuck Yeager

Possible. Even probable around 1985 to 1995 when the PAF was at a technological and professional high as compared to say the IAF; however as of today, the PAF suffers from a serious lack of BVR capability with puts it at a severe disadvantage with an air force with even minimal BVR capability.
Also it lacks the experience that the IAF has gained in the last decade through interoperability exercises and air games with air forces that include the USAF, RAF, RSAF, L'Armee D'Air (and Aero Navale), RuAF, St hAfrican AF, IAF (Israel).
In fact the IAF is scheduled to take part in its first ever Red Flag exercise in Aug 08, an opportunity IIRC even the PAF has not got as of date.

Also the PAF suffer from a deep rooted inability to integrate in inter services operations with the Pakistani Army; thus clearly limiting its ability as a wholesome Air Force that is able satisfy all aspects of its role. This I suspect is partly (if not entirely) due to a sense of superiority complex within the PAF cadre with respect to the other 2 services.


I have a few questions for you neo:

1) Can you post some links on your PAF J-11B acquisition? I never heard any info around that and I suspect there would be major re-export issues unless the J-11B was being run on the WS-10A.

2) The Erieye a/c to be acquired by the PAF, weer IMHO, AEW platforms and not AWACS platforms persay; purely because they do not have the radar sweep range of an AWACS platform. Correct me if I'm wrong.

3)Finally, is the J-11B really comparable to the Su-35 or is it more in the class of the Su-27SMK?Because there's no FDL, no TVC, radar unknown (Type 1474 MMR with ~150km search fighter-size objects?) and no inflight refuel probe.

4)In fact, I'm not sure if any of the PAF aircraft except for the J-10 have in flight refuel ability. Do the F-16s (MLU upgrades and new a/c) and JF-17s have in-flight refuel probes? Ther were some rumors of attempts to develop a indigenous inflight refuel system for the JF-17s but never hear much substance to that.

[edit on 2-7-2008 by Daedalus3]