Football Players Penalized for pointing towards Heaven.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
(ETA: re-reading this sentence, I realized the irony in being "overzealous" in calling an "excessive celebration" penalty.

)

This I understand

Who exactly are the officials in high school? I doubt they are paid professionals.

Here's a secondary question: should kids respect those in official capacity (and their decisions)?

I'm currently raising an 11 year old granddaughter who just started middle school (6th grade). They don't make 11 year olds like they used to. She looks like an ethnic Dakota Fanning - - - with her Spanish/Greek heritage.

How do you find the balance between teaching kids to respect authority and standing up to them when you feel they are wrong?

Yeah - - I know - - should start a separate thread.

Originally posted by Annee

reply to post by Annee

 

Like I've said - - I did not make the rule. I did not make the call. I am not the one making this an issue. I am simply commenting on a news story - - - that I believe would not have "exploded" all over the internet - - if it weren't for the back story and god slighted. Which may or may not have made the news whether it affected the outcome of the game or not.

Who exactly is fueling this story? I haven't read any comments from the two boys. Which is good - - because it is not their position to argue rulings.

Fair enough, but I was responding to your statement: "It costs a lot of money to go to any professional sport these days. As a paying customer - - I do not want anyone's personal belief displayed."

Not wanting one's personal belief displayed is a very scary reality.

I'm sorry - - - but I do not believe you or the majority of people would feel the same way if it was somehow an Atheist gesture.

Let's be real.

I am being real but I do realize that our reality is always shaped by perception. I believe there MAY be a generational difference here; I am 28. Even being from the heart of the Bible Belt (Kentucky) I was raised in a very tolerant society (do no read apathetic or with lack of beliefs). Almost all of my friends/family/acquaintances are tolerant. Times have changed (at least in an anecdotal sense for me).

One of the main values of my generation is freedom of personal belief and expression. Just because I disagree with something doesn't mean there should be a rule (or worse, a law) against it. Period. You are correct, you didn't make the ruling and my opinion will not shape the decision in any way.

However, Your contention that personal freedom of expression should be limited is striking at best.

reply to post by Annee

At least be honest and admit these two boys were pointing to heaven to acknowledge their friend that died.

I have no problem admitting that the boys were probably pointing to "heaven" to honor their dead friend.

Two points though:
1. "Heaven" doesn't necessarily mean any specific God or religion. It is just one way of describing a happier place where people like to believe they go when they die.
2. There is nothing to indicate the referee had any problem with the specific gesture. He was probably only penalizing the "excessiveness" of the celebration.

As you have made clear, the family probably did expect there to be a little extra leeway considering the fallen team member, and maybe they thought religion should play into the referee's thinking. If that is the case, then I disagree with the family. I do not believe the religiousness of the situation should factor in either way. It should not be specifically forbidden and it should not be specifically exempt. The only thing the referee needs to worry about is whether or not the player was intentionally drawing extra attention to himself or distracting or delaying the game.

I think you and I were debating a moot point. I definitely do not believe the penalty should be ignored for a religious gesture, but neither do I believe religious gestures should be forbidden. Anyone can celebrate any way they wish, so long as it is extremely brief and spontaneous. No "planned" celebrations, no extended celebrations, and no unnecessary attention grabbing antics.

I'm sorry - - - but I do not believe you or the majority of people would feel the same way if it was somehow an Atheist gesture.

Now that you've brought it up, please clarify what an 'atheist' gesture would look like when celebrating.

Originally posted by Lucius Driftwood

I'm sorry - - - but I do not believe you or the majority of people would feel the same way if it was somehow an Atheist gesture.

Now that you've brought it up, please clarify what an 'atheist' gesture would look like when celebrating.

I have no idea.

It really isn't pertinent.

Originally posted by Dr Cosma
When I watch Messi score a goal in 'real' FOOTball I like to see him point up with BOTH his fingers to God.

I also enjoy his celebratory display of joy/reverence/humility as well, after he scores his umpteenth goal of the season, no matter how unique or extraordinary the goal was.

Messi is a class act.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e09596d196b4.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d5a280bd9aae.jpg[/atsimg]

While I'm highly critical of American ''sports'' in general, I'm beginning to think that many Americans don't even understand the culture of sport at all.

It seems that some Americans think that sport is purely a money-making form of throwaway entertainment, where the paying punter feels that they should get their ''money's worth'' at each game, while at the same time, stuffing their faces with food every 5 minutes and enjoying commercials after every single 10-second break in play.

Americans + sport = Epic Phail.

I am from Texas, so I know these things:

* God loves football, BUT
* God will not make up for your bad play calling if you point to him when you score.
* Up by two, with 1:47 left, you complicate your defense if you miss the two point conversion. Take the PAT.
* God does not like stupid football.
* God is watching the TCU Baylor game right now-- not because they are Christian schools, but because they are playing a cliffhanger game.

I cannot see the pointing in the video, nor when the flag is thrown; but I can see excessive celebration.

"Instinctively, the two players pointed" Bull. That is learned, intentional behavior.

"because of the heavenly pointing" I doubt it. Because 10 seconds had passed and the whole team had arrived at, and still remained in, the end zone.

reply to post by Frira


Right.

So there is no legitimate reason this should be news - - exploding all over the net.

Originally posted by Lucius Driftwood I'm sorry - - - but I do not believe you or the majority of people would feel the same way if it was somehow an Atheist gesture. Now that you've brought it up, please clarify what an 'atheist' gesture would look like when celebrating. I have no idea. It really isn't pertinent.

reply to post by Annee


It really isn't pertinent? Are you serious? You've just undone everything your points and arguments.

Originally posted by Bobaganoosh
The best way to fix all of this is to take sports out of school.

I have to agree. Schools are for learning, and sports are just a distraction.
They re-inforce the "us vs. them" mentality, and just lead to conflict.
I grew up in Small Town, New England. For decades our high schoolers had fights with the neighboring town's high schoolers over nothing but sports. How is this good for learning? How is this good for anything?

Where's the motivation to study hard and learn when the kid with the best grades is ignored while accolades are heaped on the kid who scored the winning touchdown?

Sports are about one thing- making money. High schools get donations based on how the team is doing, colleges even more so. Pro sports only exist to make money, I think that's obvious.

If their were no sports in schools, the gesture would not have been made, the call would not have been made, people wouldn't have gotten bent over it, and the "god vs. no God" argument would have to be couched in a different topic. As a bonus, it's possible that the kids would be getting better grades without the distraction.

The ref was paid off. It is just that simple. This has nothing to do with anything other than the ref making some money on the side.
Or he was betting on the out come of the game. What better way to make money than to bet on a game that you are the ref for.

There was money involved here

This is how lies are spread and blown out of proportion. The team was penalized for a mass celebration that may have coordinated elements. This is against the rules. Im not saying it is right, in fact I hate it, I love when guys score and have outrageous celebrations.

But it has nothing to do with religion. Nothing. It was a mass celebration by the team. Illegal in the game, all there is to it.

Originally posted by aching_knuckles
This is how lies are spread and blown out of proportion. The team was penalized for a mass celebration that may have coordinated elements. This is against the rules. Im not saying it is right, in fact I hate it, I love when guys score and have outrageous celebrations.

But it has nothing to do with religion. Nothing. It was a mass celebration by the team. Illegal in the game, all there is to it.

Then why is it all over the news?

double post

Originally posted by Lucius Driftwood

Originally posted by Lucius Driftwood I'm sorry - - - but I do not believe you or the majority of people would feel the same way if it was somehow an Atheist gesture. Now that you've brought it up, please clarify what an 'atheist' gesture would look like when celebrating. I have no idea. It really isn't pertinent.

reply to post by Annee

 

It really isn't pertinent? Are you serious? You've just undone everything your points and arguments.

The question was what symbol would be used.

What the symbol is - is not pertinent. Only that the meaning is clear.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by aching_knuckles
This is how lies are spread and blown out of proportion. The team was penalized for a mass celebration that may have coordinated elements. This is against the rules. Im not saying it is right, in fact I hate it, I love when guys score and have outrageous celebrations.

But it has nothing to do with religion. Nothing. It was a mass celebration by the team. Illegal in the game, all there is to it.

Then why is it all over the news?

OMG, you mean the mainstream media lies and blows things out of proportion??

From the yahoo article:

Instinctively, the two Louisville players pointed at the sky, a motion intended to pay tribute to a close friend who had died in an accident just days before.
That's when a flag flew in from an official, citing excessive celebration because the players' heavenward point was considered an action that drew attention to themselves.

When two or more players, after a TD or score or ANY play (a sack, an INT, whatever) and appear to do a coordinated motion (such as a choreographed dance, or in this case, a finger to the sky) it is a penalty.

It was not a penalty because they pointed toward heaven....it was a penalty because they joined up, both did "what appeared" to be either a choreographed or practiced motion or dance.

Religion has nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by aching_knuckles
When two or more players, after a TD or score or ANY play (a sack, an INT, whatever) and appear to do a coordinated motion (such as a choreographed dance, or in this case, a finger to the sky) it is a penalty.

Got that.

It was not a penalty because they pointed toward heaven....it was a penalty because they joined up, both did "what appeared" to be either a choreographed or practiced motion or dance.

Got that. Doesn't this happen often? Why did this one particular even explode all over the net?

Religion has nothing to do with it.

Do not agree.

Would pointing to hell be acceptable as in pointing to the ground?

Originally posted by Annee
It has been a rule for quite sometime. All players are aware of it.

Fans pay to see a game played. They do not pay to witness God.

This is why mass internment and resettlement of atheist's into atheist only communities would be a public good. Why should the overwhelming majority put up with this blatant persecution of our religious beliefs for the benefit of 2-5% of the population? Wouldn't it be easier to just re-settle the "dissenters" into their own communities so they are not offended?

reply to post by tracehd1


Sometimes the players are saying 'this is for you dad' or this is for you mum' ... who have died!! I dont think this is over-celebration of any kind, just showing their parents/friends whatever that they just scored for them or won the game for them.....

Whats the big deal?

All this complaining is getting out of hand.....