The "Smoking Gun"... Literally

The Smoking Gun... Quite Literally

Hello ATS,

The term "Smoking Gun" is one that is used to indicate that something has now been conclusively proven and is therefore irrefutable - It's also a term that is perhaps used a bit more often than is necessary, especially when it comes to conspiracies and just in general ATS threads/posts etc. You see, all too often people believe they have irrefutable evidence of a claim they're making yet at the same time nothing could be further from the all elusive truth..

This being so, those who've taken the time to look at the JFK Assassination case for example, this being the topic of this thread, will know that almost 50 years on we're still yet to have any conclusive proof or any genuine answers to the difficult questions we pose. And It's a genuine possibility that we'll never see the answers we're searching for also, although of course It's not completely out of the question yet.

This being so, let me firstly explain that the title of this thread isn't to mean that I'm claiming to have genuine evidence of anything really, It's a play on words. The topic of this thread is the JFK Assassination, yes, but expanding on that I'd like to discuss a certain anomaly that sticks out for researchers and gives us a very strong reason to believe the official story is as many suspect it to be - wrong. And if we, as researchers, was to ever find what we would consider to be the smoking gun, or irrefutable proof of a conspiracy if you will, in this particular case, then coincidentally the smoking gun would quite literally be.. a smoking gun. What I'm talking about will be explained in more detail to those who continue to carry on reading through this thread..

Before I continue on let me first explain for those not familiar with this conspiracy and the possibility of what this means exactly: You see, on November 22nd, 1963 at approximately 12:30pm, the then president John F. Kennedy was gunned down by at least 2 shots, at least 3 being fired at him, while riding in his presidential limousine through Dealey Plaza, Texas. Accompanying him in the Limousine was his wife, Jackie, Governor of Texas John Connolly and his wife Nelly and finally 2 secret service agents, both situated at the front of the limousine, driver William Greer and passenger Roy Kellerman.

This was the exact spot where the fatal shot had taken place:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/06f04b661438.jpg[/atsimg]

This can be seen today still. Anyway, the Warren Commission, earning Its name from the man spearheading it, Chief Justice Earl Warren, coincidentally the man who swore Kennedy in as president a few years before, was set up by the new President (Johnson) to ascertain the true series of events which had taken place and to determine who the assassin, or assassins, were.

In October of 1964, the assassination itself taking place in November of 1963 remember, the Warren Commission published its findings. Now, one of the claims made by the Commission, which is the primary reason for this thread, was that Lee Harvey Oswald (as seen below), the man arrested shortly after the assassination, was the sole culprit for the murder of the president, and of course for Officer Tippit, firing from the 6th floor of the Texas School Depository according to officials.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1a66559bd119.jpg[/atsimg]

I, and many others, have some serious doubts about this conclusion. The first of which, and unrelated to this thread, is that no one, not even the commission, was able to conclusively place him on the 6th floor at the time of the assassination. You see, just after the assassination had taken place, at which point the motorcade was running 5 minutes late anyway, a police officer called Marrion Baker entered the building, met Oswald's Boss, Roy Truly, and the two men then proceeded up the building. With-in around 80 or so seconds after the assassination they reached the second floor employee’s lunchroom situated towards the far side of the building away from Elm Street, which was where they came across none other than Lee Harvey Oswald.

In the film taken by cameraman Malcolm Couch, we can seemingly see Baker running towards the TSDB as shown in these images below:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/aace99cbc1bd.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/082fae8a8e84.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d3e43f79c66e.jpg[/atsimg]

The full film show here:



He was leaving the room which seemingly aroused the attention of Baker where he pointed his gun at him. Truly, being Oswald’s boss, pointed out that this was employee to Baker and the men carried on their journey up the building. What's particularly odd is that Oswald was reportedly calm, not out of breath (remember the shot came from the 6th floor and Oswald was seen on the 2nd floor with-in a minute and a half after the assassination) and was "drinking a coke".

Here's a fascinating snippet from the Book Crossfire, authored by Jim Marrs, which I'm currently reading:

Baker told the Warren Commission: "I had it in mind that the shots came from the top of the building..." He continued: As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked..."where the stairs or the elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says to me... "I'm the building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.

Depository superintendent Roy Truly had followed Baker into the building. He quickly went to the buildings elevators, but could not bring them down since someone had left them locked in position on an upper floor. Truly told the commission:

...Those elevators...were both on the fifth floor, they were both even. And I tried to get one of them... It would have been impossible for [Oswald] to have come down either one of those elevators after the assassination. He had to use the stairway as his only way of getting down - since we did see the elevators in those positions.

Truly Yelled, "Bring that elevator down here!" to no avail and Baker said, "Let's take the stairs." Moving up the stairs trailing Truly, Baker said he noticed a man walking away from him through a glass window in a door near the rear of the second-floor landing. With drawn pistol, Baker confronted the man and ordered him to come to him. In a handwritten report to the FBI on November 23rd, Baker stated: "On the second floor where the lunchroom is located, I saw a man standing in the lunchroom drinking a coke." However, the words "drinking a coke" were scratched out in this report and there was no reference to the coke in his Warren Commission testimony.

Truly said the man, whom he recognized as Oswald, "didn't seem to be excited or overly afraid." He told the Warren Commission he noticed nothing in Oswald's hands, but this was months later, after many discussions with federal authorities.

Baker turned to Truly and asked if the man was an employee and Truly replied he was. Baker then turned and continued his race for the roof.

Oswald apparently simply sauntered down the steps and out the front door of the depository.

Source: Crossfire, by Jim Marrs. Page 50 beginning at line 38 and ending on line 32 of page 51.

Oswald was even seen prior to the assassination by Carolyn Arnold in the very same Lunchroom at around 12:15 - 12:25). Clerical supervisor, Mrs. Robert Reid, who was stood on the steps of the Texas School Book Depository as the assassination was taking place was coming back into the building in the minutes afterwards and she herself even seemingly encountered Oswald at this time:

From the same book, Crossfire:

"...I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door to the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, "Oh, the Presidents been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him." He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands... The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had a coke in his hands so he didn't come for change..."

So we can conclude with relative confidence Oswald was where Baker and Truly had seen him at around the same time they had seen him. An interesting, albeit small, point is he seemingly did have the coke in his hand also - unusual since he, according to the official story, had just shot the president from the 6th floor moments before.

Anyway, there's no denying that other witnesses do report seeing a shooter still. Even those on the 5th floor claim that a man was shooting from above them. According to an official FBI report, a women called Mrs Mooneyham claimed to have even seen someone present in the snipers nest, but this was around 5 minutes after the assassination. According to Crossfire Tom Dillard, a photographer in the motorcade, had also taken an image of the depository with-in minutes after the assassination. Comparing this photo to others led an official investigation, known the HSCA investigation, to conclude: "There was an apparent rearranging of boxes within two minutes after the last shot was fired at President Kennedy."

It's also worth pointing out that no witness has ever come forward and claimed to have seen Oswald race down the building immediately after the shooting had taken place to reach the second floor. Some others also reported seeing the shooter simply looking out the window after the shooting, although at a bit of a distance. This giving Oswald even less time to reach the second floor assuming he was the culprit..

Anyway, the point of this thread is not to wholly show that Oswald was not a shooter.. which he seemingly wasn't anyway, It's to show that the shooter from this position wasn't the sole shooter. You see, as well as a great deal of scepticism coming about surrounding Oswald as a shooter, much scepticism has come about over the conclusion that all shots fired at Kennedy had come from behind him. Many, including myself, believe a shot had come from none other than the Grassy Knoll, an image of this location shown below:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/525288901e5e.jpg[/atsimg]

The cross marking the exact location of the fatal head shot striking Kennedy.

You see, I feel the need to go back to the reasoning behind the title of this thread at this point - the smoking gun. Well, according to witnesses, a gun, or something resembling a gun wasn't solely heard to have come from the Grassy Knoll, but smoke was also said to have been seen rising from this location as well.

One of the most famous witnesses to see smoke coming from this area was Lee Bowers, Lee being situated in his rail yard tower behind the Grassy Knoll on the day of the assassination, his exact location as shown in this modern image of Dealey Plaza as seen from the air:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/888a10a28682.jpg[/atsimg]

Here's a snippet of an interview he once conducted, prior to his mysterious death, with JFK researcher, Mark Lane:

"At the time of the shooting, in the vicinity of where the two men I have described were, there was a flash of light or, as far as I am concerned, something I could not identify, but there was something which occurred which caught my eye in this immediate area on the embankment. Now, what this was, I could not state at that time and at this time I could not identify it, other than there was some unusual occurrence - a flash of light or smoke or something which caused me to feel like something out of the ordinary had occurred there."

The full interview with Lane and Bowers, particularly where the above snippet is mentioned, can be seen here:



3 months after the above Interview, witness Lee Bowers unfortunately died after being run off the road by a black car. He allegedly held on long enough to tell paramedics he felt as though he had been drugged:

On the morning of August 9, 1966, Lee Bowers, now the vice-president of a construction firm, was driving south from Dallas on business. He was two miles from Midlothian when his brand new company car veered from the road and hit a bridge abutment. A farmer who saw it said the car was going 50 miles an hour, a slow speed for that road. There were no skid marks to indicate braking.

Bowers died of his wounds at 1 p.m. in a Dallas hospital. He was 41. There was no autopsy, and he was cremated soon afterward. Doctors saw no evidence that he had suffered a heart attack. A doctor from Midlothian, who rode in the ambulance with Bowers, noticed something peculiar about the victim. "He was in a strange state of shock," the old doctor said, "a different kind of shock than an accident victim experiences. I can't explain it. I've never seen anything like it."

Bowers widow at first insisted to Penn Jones that there was nothing suspicious about her husband's death. Then she became flustered and said: "They told him not to talk."

(Source)

To read more about Lee Bowers, please see my past thread on him here: Lee Bowers - A Murdered Witness

Bowers, fortunately, was not the only very credible witness to claim that a flash of light or smoke was seen coming from the Grassy Knoll at the time of the assassination. Sam M. Holland, a track and signal supervisor situated on top of the triple overpass also claimed to have seen this strange anomaly, one that if real gives us reason to believe a shooter was present here thus proving the Warren Commission was incorrect in their conclusions of a single shooter from the TSDB - the smoking gun if true.

Holland was one of those called to the Warren Commission, this is part of what he told them:

"And the Motorcade was coming down in this fashion, and the president was waving to the people on this [north] side [of Elm street]... the first report that I heard... was pretty loud... and the car travelled a few yards and governor Connelly turned in this fashion, like that, with his hand out and... another report rang out and he slumped down in his seat... [then Kennedy] was hit again along... in here... I observed it. It knocked him completely down on the floor... just slumped completely over... I heard a third report and I counted four shots... There was a shot, a report. I don't know whether it was a shot. I can't say that. And a puff of smoke came out about six or eight feet above the ground right out from under those trees.".

(Source of the last snippet)

In an interview in 1966 with Lane, as seen below, Holland expanded on what he saw.

He claimed: "I looked over to where I thought the shot came from and I saw a puff of smoke still lingering under the trees in front of the wooden fence. The report sounded like it came from behind the wooden fence... I know where the third shot came from - behind the picket fence. There's no doubt whatsoever in my mind."

Here is the full interview he conducted:



The Warren Commission, rather predictably, went onto conclude that Holland was merely mistaken with what he saw.

Anyway, James L. Simmons was another of those on top of the triple overpass. In yet another interview with Mark Lane, he describes what he saw which was quite similar to what Holland also saw, Holland situated on top of the triple overpass but from a slightly different location to Simmons

Here's his own Interview:



Once again the smoke is seen and mentioned by a witness - and the ones mentioned in this thread so far aren't the only ones to see it. Others such as Nolan H. Potter, Richard C. Dodd, Walter L. Winborn, Austin Miller, Thomas J. Murphy and Clemon E. Johnson were among others who claimed to have seen it. Looking through the collection of videos from the day however, the smoke doesn't seem to be present at all oddly enough. That is, until you come across the film by assassination witness Dave Wiegman Jr, one of those riding in the presidential motorcade follow-up cars.

His film is, admittedly, incredibly blurry to watch as he jumped from the car he was riding in, all the while the film is still running, before be begins to run up towards the Grassy Knoll, this being where he, and many others at the time, heard shots originating from.

Here's an image of Wiegman as he films the events taking place:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a75661159312.jpg[/atsimg]

Here is the entire film he managed to capture of the immediate aftermath of the assassination:



Here's the one single frame where It's claimed we can just make out smoke originating from the exact location as claimed by Holland, Bowers, Simmons and many others - smoke rising around 8 or so feet from the picket fence:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a55fa25735c4.jpg[/atsimg]

Concentrate on the circled area to the far right - this circled having the potential, despite the poor quality of the image, to show smoke originating from the grassy knoll, smoke as seen by some of the witnesses to the assassination, and all of those on top of the triple overpass. It has also been determined over the years that there is no natural explanation for this apparent appearance of smoke.

This image is quite possibly the only one showing anything resembling smoke originating from this area also. Anyway, some of the witnesses unfortunately didn't even see it, or didn't come forward claiming to see it should I say, but, however, many of them, these being very credible witnesses, do report being able to smell gunpowder towards the area around the knoll and near the triple overpass still.

If shots came from behind and 6 floors up and only behind and 6 floors up, there there is simply no explanation for why witnesses could only smell this use of gunpower in and around the area towards the end of Elm and not towards the buildings behind Kennedy when he was assassinated. The only conclusion is a shot from further along the route, as opposed to one solely from the buildings behind Kennedy, had occurred, such as in and around the area where a flash of light was seen, where smoke was seen rising from, and where the majority of the witnesses ran to immediately after the assassination as shown in the below image:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/16c074d34a14.jpg[/atsimg]

Not just the witness, but even police officers suspected the knoll as the original shooting position, this entire area being sealed off with-in minutes after the assassination, this even confirmed by Lee Bowers.

Now, some may still be wondering more about the flash of light that could be seen by some of the witnesses at this point, particularly Bowers and those on the overpass. Well, analysis of one image may provide answers for this. Here's an image captured by Assassination witness Mary Moorman and her photograph of the exact same time the President was shot in the head, this image commonly referred to as the "Moorman Photo."

Here is Mary Moorman as seen on the day of the assassination:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7c46ee47fd6d.jpg[/atsimg]

Here is the famous photograph she took:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7007bff6702b.jpg[/atsimg]

What's special about this image as over the years It's undergone quite a degree of testing, the most famous of which from JFK researcher Gary Mack and Photographic expert Jack White where they was able to discover an anomaly that has become one of the most discussed points in the entire case.

You see, upon zooming further into the image though, we can just about make out 3 figures as shown below:

Here is where they was able to zoom in:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a8508c994c7e.jpg[/atsimg]

Here is what's produced upon doing so:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f5229fa57968.jpg[/atsimg]

Further enhancements and with the use of Colorization, we are now able to have this image below, showing one of the most famous figures in this case, "badgeman":

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c0d147f05a3a.jpg[/atsimg]

This image, the same from the Moorman photo, has caused researchers over the years to claim the man dressed as a police man in the middle was the person firing when the fatal shot struck Kennedy in the head, as seen in frame 313 of the Zapruder film. The man to the right of the photo is, according to some, a potential accomplice of sorts disguised as a railyard worker - the police man also in disguise. It's also claimed the white flash in the middle is the very same as seen by some of the witnesses on the overpass and the flash of light as seen by witness Lee Bowers in the railyard tower behind the knoll.

Here's what Bowers himself once claimed about seeing strange individuals in this vicinity also, as well as the flash:

One witness was in a better position than anyone else to observe suspicious activity by the fence at the top of the grassy knoll. This was railway worker Lee Bowers, perched in a signal box which commanded a unique view of the area behind the fence. Bowers said that, shortly before the shots were fired, he noticed two men standing near the fence.

(This snippet is continued in the next post)

One was "middle-aged" and "fairly heavyset," wearing a white shirt and dark trousers. The other was "mid-twenties in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat... these men were the only two strangers in the area. The others were workers that I knew." Bowers also said that when the shots were fired at the President "in the vicinity of where the two men I have described were, there was a flash of light, something I could not identify, but there was something which occurred which caught my eye in this immediate area on the embankment... a flash of light or smoke or something which caused me to feel that something out of the ordinary had occurred there." Lee Bowers was questioned by the Warren Commission but was cut off in mid-sentence when he began describing the "something out of the ordinary" he had seen. The interrogating lawyer changed the subject.

(Source)

It's worth noting that the man in the above image next to the man dressed as a police officer is indeed wearing a white shirt as claimed by Bowers.

What about the other figure though? The man to our left hand side of the image - well, he appears to have been identified over the years. His name was Gordon Arnold and he was actually stood in front of the picket fence as opposed to behind it like the other 2 figures were.

His full, and fascinating, interview can be heard here:



Here's an interesting snippet about Arnold:

Gordon Arnold was born in Dallas, Texas, in 1941. After completing his education he joined the United States Army and was based at Fort Wainwright in Alaska.

Arnold was home on leave on 22nd November, 1963, and decided to take his movie camera to Dealey Plaza in order to film the visit of President John F. Kennedy. While walking by the Grassy Knoll he was stopped by a man claiming to be a member of the Secret Service. He later told Jim Marrs: "I was walking along behind this picket fence when a man in a light-colored suit came up to me and said I shouldn't be up there. I was young and cocky and I said, "Why not?" And he showed me a badge and said he was with the Secret Service and that he didn't want anyone up there. I said all right and started walking back along the fence. I could feel that he was following me and we had a few more words. I walked around to the front of the fence and found a little mound of dirt to stand on to see the motorcade."

Arnold claimed that the first shot was fired from behind him. After the firing had finished, Arnold claimed that a policeman with a gun forced him to hand over the film in his camera. Arnold returned to Fort Wainwright and was never interviewed by the Warren Commission or the House Select Committee on Assassinations about what he had seen on 22nd November, 1963.

After leaving the army Arnold became an investigator for the Dallas Department of Consumer Affairs. It was not until the summer of 1978, that Arnold decided to speak about his experiences in Dealey Plaza on 22nd July, 1963. Arnold gave an interview to Earl Goltz, a reporter with the Dallas Morning News. The article appeared on 27th July, 1978. Interviews with Arnold also appeared in Reasonable Doubt (Henry Hurt) and Crossfire (Jim Marrs).

Some researchers have doubted Arnold's testimony but it has been supported by the testimony of Ralph Yarborough who told a newspaper reporter from the Dallas Morning News: "Immediately on the firing of the first shot I saw the man you interviewed throw himself onto the ground. He was down within a second of the time the shot was fired, and I thought to myself, 'There's a combat veteran who knows how to act when weapons start firing.' "

(Source)

Arnold's testimony is, compared to most, quite credible really. He's even backed up by credible witnesses such as Ralph Yarborough, someone with no reason to lie about seeing him, as can be seen in the above snippet. His story is bizarre, but if true, it proves there was indeed a shooter from the knoll.

In 1976, an official investigation into the case was once more conducted, this being the House Select Committee on Assassinations, also known as the HSCA investigation, this run by well known researcher Jim Garrison. In 1979 after a full investigation, one which was absolutely plagued by odd and mysterious deaths to the witnesses as shown in this thread here, most of which were set to appear before the committee - many of them being key witnesses. It was finally concluded that a "probable conspiracy" had indeed taken place in the JFK Assassination although It could not be determined who else was involved in the plot or what the true nature of the plot was - but a conspiracy did seem very likely indeed.

One of the main reasons for being so confident in concluding a "probably conspiracy" was the finding of an apparent dicta-belt reading after a police officer on one of the police motorcycles accidentally left his micophone on the on position capturing what appears to be gunfire, of which 4 shots can be heard. At least 1 of which, it was determined, coming quite clearly from the grassy knoll position.

In fact, It was concluded by this investigation beyond all doubt that at least one of the shots came from this location:

Acoustics analysts Mark Weiss and Ernest Aschkenasy, of Queens College, reviewed the BBN data and concluded that "with the probability of 95% or better, there was indeed a shot fired from the grassy knoll."

(Source)

The final conclusion by the HSCA investigation also came about due to evidence being uncovered of Jack Ruby's true underworld connections, ones which were more than present. The Warren Commission somehow failing to find any connection whatsoever though, something quite convenient. This in itself is important as much scrutiny over the dictabelt readings has come about over the years now.

Despite the criticism over the recordings, an overwhelming amount of evidence seems to point towards a grassy knoll shooter still. Witnesses report seeing suspicious characters in the parking lot behind the Knoll in the half an hour prior to the assassination, suspicious looking men were seen on the ground before the assassination around the Knoll, a flash of light was seen at the time of the assassination, at which point we can seemingly make out someone aiming and firing a gun in the Moorman photo, smoke could be seen rising from the Knoll just after the assassination had taken place, gunpowder was smelt by witnesses near the knoll after the assassination but not near the TSDB and so on.

The ones who were seemingly responsible for the shooting were dressed as a police officer and a railyard worker, these were the 2 main descriptions of people behind the Knoll in the minutes after the assassination also - they were the perfect disguises really.

Of course though... It's all theory at this stage. But, there's really no doubt in my mind that a shooter was firing from the knoll. And we have more than enough reason to believe so without having to analyse the Zapruder film, something many suspect to have been tampered with anyway.

Anyway, thanks to those who took the time to read this thread, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Fantastic thread and full of stuff i had no idea about.

reply to post by Rising Against



Wow, yet another excellent thread on this topic, RA. I had never before seen the Moorman photo zoomed and colorized like that... amazing. I can only imgaine what we would have learned if Gordon Arnold had not turned over his film to "badge man", but at least we have his account in his own words to ponder.

There is so much evidence that was totally ignored by various and sundry commissions that points to a whole different conclusion than the one we have been spoon fed that it just boggles my mind. How you and other researchers find these things and bring them to light is truly amazing and I thank you for your efforts. I for one have learned a great deal from your threads and look forward to more.

I for one think that the fatal shots were fired from the Knoll, it just makes much more sense to me for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the time frame from first shot fired to last. It is a well known fact that the gun attributed to Oswald using is not known for it's quickness or its accuracey and add onto that Oswald was not known for his marksmanship either. So that to me, along with other factors, signals shots fired from elsewhere either in conjunction with shots from TSBD or as stand alone shots fired.

reply to post by MyMindIsMyOwn

I for one think that the fatal shots were fired from the Knoll, it just makes much more sense to me

Agreed, It makes a lot of sense to me as well.

For one, the way JFK reacts is inconsistent with a shot from behind. After all, who's ever fired at something only for it to automatically come back towards you? I'll bet no one. JFK's head on impact in fact moves back and to the left quite violently, the Knoll being on his right hand side.

We have very credible witnesses like Lee Bowers who say they saw a flash of light or smoke coming from the knoll. We have other witnesses from a completely different location who also reported the smoke - of which these figures claim a gun man was shooting. We have many other witnesses on the ground, such as police officers, and those inside the motorcade, who immediately suspected the Grassy knoll. We even have testimonies from people like Gordon Arnold who claim to have encountered those behind the knoll immediately after the shooting, and accounts which can be backed up, even by someone who was in the motorcade (Ralph Yarborough) and so on..

Now, no ones saying a shot didn't come from behind, In fact I think it almost certainly did, and from the Texas School book Depository, but the fatal head shot itself certainly seems to have come from the knoll.

reply to post by Viking9019

and full of stuff i had no idea about.

Well then my job is done.

I was hoping for a bit more discussion in this thread, admittedly. Therefore.. thread bump.

Not to mention that it would have been impossible for Oswald to fire 3 shots in 5 seconds from his 6.5 mm Carcano Model 91/38 bolt-action rifle. Oswald did obtain the score of "sharpshooter" while in the Marines in 1956. However to make such extraordinary shots at a moving target in that short of a time frame would be of astronomical odds. Even world reknown marksmen have called the shots impossible.

Originally posted by Nucleardiver
Not to mention that it would have been impossible for Oswald to fire 3 shots in 5 seconds from his 6.5 mm Carcano Model 91/38 bolt-action rifle. Oswald did obtain the score of "sharpshooter" while in the Marines in 1956. However to make such extraordinary shots at a moving target in that short of a time frame would be of astronomical odds. Even world reknown marksmen have called the shots impossible.

That's certainly a point worth making - If Oswald could have been placed on the 6th floor at the time of the assassination, which he definitely can't, then the probability of making the shots in the first place are very very low to say the least.

I still have no doubt Oswald was involved in some way or another though, whether it be on the side of the "good guys" or the side of the "bad guys", but he certainly didn't fire any shots, IMO.

Great thread as always RA. I think that the movement of JFK's head to the left and back proves by the physics alone that the shot had to come from the knoll. The momentum of the bullet would impart the witnessed head movement if the shot came from the knoll.

I've always thought that the Warren Commision was full of baloney.They were told what to find and to discredit any witnesses who actually had evidence to the contrary.

reply to post by Rising Against


I had no idea that an investigation actually ruled that there was a 95% chance of a conspiracy. It's a shame there is so much evidence except nobody to blame for the conspiracy.

S7F, great job OP very interesting read!

Star and Flag!
Very good stuff!

I have always believed that the kill shot came from the grassy knoll. I can not be convinced that it came from the rifle that we are told it was fired from, especially with full metal jacketed bullets, as the 'pristine bullet' was. A heavy bullet like that, fired from that caliber rifle does not have sufficient speed to generate the hydrostatic shock exhibited in the Presidents head when the kill shot is seen in the Zapruder film.

Great thread mate ...unbeliavable stuff ! Thanks for your time .

My opinion is same like with 9/11 ...i'm 100 % certain that official story of JFK assasination is not true ! PERIOD . Maybe sometimes we will find the truth when real goverment for the people step in Washington.

Major props to you OP. I have hardly heard of any of this stuff before and it's very interesting. Like others have said in this thread, the shot HAD to of came from behind. No way would his head of reacted the way it did if he was shot like they say he was.

All very interesting, but it does not address anything but what happened at the scene.

The real question is who was behind it.

The answer to that is LBJ and GHWB.

A post packed with info, thank you for posting OP.
Another witness who corroborated evidence that Oswald couldn't have been on the 6th floor at the correct time was Victoria Adams. She witnessed the assassination with colleagues from a 4th floor window, and as soon as it happened they ran down the same stairwell that Oswald would have had to descend at the same time. But she didn't see or hear anyone else on the stairs. Ms Adams was practically branded a liar and her colleagues where never interviewed. I only heard about this lady after listening to an interview with the author of the book 'The Girl on the Stairs', Barry Ernest, who had heard the story and took 35 years to find Ms Adams.

For anyone interested you can hear Mr Ernest interviewed by Jim Fetzer HERE