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Wow... England Needs A Revolution...

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posted on Aug, 31 2011 @ 07:40 PM
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reply to post by plnelson
 


Actually, one could argue that all 4 nations have a shared history going back over a millenia, rather than 4 seperate histories.

As for being distinct people, this isn't entirely true either. The Welsh and English are actually more or less the same ethnic group (The Welsh and Cornish are orignal Britons that escaped anglification after the fall of the Roman Empire - the common folk remained the same people though as only the Elites changed) and a significant amount of lowland Scots would hail from Anglo-Saxon lineages, seeing as Edinburgh was origjnally part of the Kingdom of Northumbria before the Scots nabbed it.

That said, the English are a result of all the home nations and the invaders all blending, whereas those who hail from Wales, Scotland and ireland didin't have the same degree of mongrelisation. For example, people in Yorkshire will have quite a bit of Viking ancestry, in the South and West they will be Brythionic (Welsh and Cornish - original romano-britons) and out East they will be of Germanic stock.

When all is said and done though, we are one nation and many nations at the same time. We have huge similarities and some big differences, but in the end our shared heritage and culture are greater than the constituent parts.




posted on Aug, 31 2011 @ 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by Freeborn
Party allegiance in Parliament should be abolished and the power of recall given to the electorate in addition to an increased use of both national and local referendums would give a fairer representation of the electorates wishes instead of allowing the corrupt elite to persue their agendas against the wishes and well being of the British people.


Freeborn, you know that Parties arem't recognised in Parliament! The "system" that promotes party allegiance is not Parliament, it is the parties themselves and the idots who stick to their party no matter what "because my dad and grandad voted for them"...

As for the discussion about the pits closing and maggie being evil. If she hadn't had stood up the Unions we'd be a third world country now. The price of coal was plummetting in the 80's, yet the miners demanded more and more and more. The refused to negotiate, so in the end they lost out. Bad, yes, but not entirely Maggies fault. The whole "Evil Tories destroyed the North" sounds like typical Left wign propoganda.


Originally posted by EvanB
Live by your means?

How are you supposed to do that on £60 a week dole, or a £5.80 an hour job which after the tax robber has looted your wages you are left with £180 out of which comes £110 a week rent, £40 a week food (barely buys you much) £25 a week gas and electric, £20 a week just to get to work, then you have council tax. In fact you end up on a weekly deficit. Live in your means?? What a fkin joke!


Hmmm...Most minimum wage people don't pay tax! Not unless you're working 70 hours a week, which is illegal. The tax threshold is pretty high and is set to climb even higher in this Parliament.



Most of the jobs going in my area are all low end agency work which are temporary. When the contract ends you are back on the dole until you can get another temping job, usually with a different agency where you are on emergency tax nearly for the whole period of the assignment. That is where the high level of tax comes from.

Even though you get the money back if your assignment lasts longer than getting your tax code sorted, it still stings the crap out of you. However most of the work is for a few weeks.



posted on Aug, 31 2011 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by asl911
UK on the Brink of Civil War and here’s why.

• Parents who have not brought their children up to respect law and order and other worldly values.

• Feral youths with who refuse to work and live on state hand-outs and believe that being a celebrity is a vocation in life. The previous government positively created this culture giving money away to anyone who couldn’t be bothered to find a job.

• Multi-culturism has failed with Muslims refusing to integrate in to British life by not speaking English and trying to enforce Sharia law

• Corrupt politicians who illegally claim false expenses. What kind of message does that send out to everyone else?

• People not able to protect their property and loved ones with the use of force in case they hurt or injure their assailants

• Bankers still getting massive bonuses while everybody else is struggling to pay their bills

• The Police are not able to miss-handle prisoners in case it harms their human rights. The human rights bill is a complete joke and doesn’t help anybody.

• The Military involved in a war that can never be won and their actions are not appreciated by those they are trying to protect.

• The UK government still giving large cash hand-outs to allegedly poor countries even though we are struggling to pay our debts.

• The Russians making billions out of selling us over priced domestic gas

• Every ‘Great’ British company now owned by foreigners especially our Football clubs

• A weak coalition government that is totally split and is still not listening to the people.

God help us, no wonder there are riots in the streets.





Bring the rain brother, then bring the pain. Absolutely no reason why you should not be able to bear arms like we do in america. Read my signature, it says it all right there. Now go retake your damn country, and find a black market arms dealer and get your people some bloody guns, and REAL guns, not the ones you all modify from those single shot musket pistols you used in the 1600's. Get you a solid 1911 colt .45 with a laser sight.



posted on Aug, 31 2011 @ 08:18 PM
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reply to post by EvanB
 


All I can suggest is look to move to another part of the country?

Go where the work is, that's what people have always done (Industrial revolution) but it seems lately people expect work on their doorstep. Even my own missus is like that. I have been trying to find her gainful employment for 3 years now as she is stuck at Argos on low pay, but she rejects any job I find which she could do as it involves catching two buses or two trains....

Personally, I've worked in Wales, Cornwall, London, Essex.. I know people liek the area's where they live, but you have to make a choice.



posted on Aug, 31 2011 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by EvanB
 


All I can suggest is look to move to another part of the country?

Go where the work is, that's what people have always done (Industrial revolution) but it seems lately people expect work on their doorstep. Even my own missus is like that. I have been trying to find her gainful employment for 3 years now as she is stuck at Argos on low pay, but she rejects any job I find which she could do as it involves catching two buses or two trains....

Personally, I've worked in Wales, Cornwall, London, Essex.. I know people liek the area's where they live, but you have to make a choice.


Ive had to go to another extreme and have a job in Dubai.

Its easy to say "move" but when you do not have resources to do that yoy are pretty much stuck where you are. I too have worked all over the country, the world even, but not having the means to travel and have accomadation makes you stuck in a virtua prison.

I have been fortunate by the fact that I am good at what I do, but I am still having to rely on my company to get me to my work abroad or I would not be able to do it.



posted on Aug, 31 2011 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by asl911
UK on the Brink of Civil War and here’s why.


Hardly... Civil War? Really?


Originally posted by asl911
• Parents who have not brought their children up to respect law and order and other worldly values.

• Feral youths with who refuse to work and live on state hand-outs and believe that being a celebrity is a vocation in life. The previous government positively created this culture giving money away to anyone who couldn’t be bothered to find a job.


One and the same, this particular problem. Largely down to the handout policy of creating client voters by the last Government. Hopefully, this benefit culture will now be faced up too withn the budget problems we have.


Originally posted by asl911
• Multi-culturism has failed with Muslims refusing to integrate in to British life by not speaking English and trying to enforce Sharia law


While I agree that multiculturalism has failed, you are generalsing massively. Not all Muslims fail to intergrate and not all those who fail to intergrate are Muslim. Also, this "trying to enforce Sharia Law" is overblowing the issue slightly, no? Show me one example of them "enforcing" (or even coming close to) Sharia law.


Originally posted by asl911
• Corrupt politicians who illegally claim false expenses. What kind of message does that send out to everyone else?


Agreed, but lets not tar them all because of the actions of a minority. Plus, this is a problem with anyone in power the world over. As it stands, the UK is one of the least corrupt places on Earth. Would rather be here than Russia, China or Africa.


Originally posted by asl911
• People not able to protect their property and loved ones with the use of force in case they hurt or injure their assailants


Not true at all. Only a few eeeks ago, a man stabbed two assailants in his home as they tried to burgle his house. One died, the other ended up in hospital. He was released without charge while the burglar who survived was arrested on his hospital bed. Then there is the 70-odd year old shopkeeper who was attacked by armed robbers. One of them died when he stabbed them. Again, released without charge while the robbers were arrested.


Originally posted by asl911
• Bankers still getting massive bonuses while everybody else is struggling to pay their bills


Agreed, to a point. But do you begrudge people bonuses for doing a good job? The bankers who are being paid the bonuses are generating revenue for the banks, hence the bonus. Without this revenue, they would fold.

I got bonuses and shares in my company last year and the year before. Is this to be frowned upon? I deserve my bonus and share options.


Originally posted by asl911
• The Police are not able to miss-handle prisoners in case it harms their human rights. The human rights bill is a complete joke and doesn’t help anybody.


While I agree that the Human Rights Act (not Bill - different thing) it would appear that you're advocating that the Police should be able to beat people in custody? I don't agree with that.


Originally posted by asl911
• The Military involved in a war that can never be won and their actions are not appreciated by those they are trying to protect.


I wouldn't say that their actions are unsupported at all. The Militarty is held in extremely high regard by many, many people. Wooten-Basset, Help for Heroes etc all show this.


Originally posted by asl911
• The UK government still giving large cash hand-outs to allegedly poor countries even though we are struggling to pay our debts.


Good poi9nt and one that is made a lot. We give billions to India when they have a Space programme!


Originally posted by asl911
• Every ‘Great’ British company now owned by foreigners especially our Football clubs


I would never call a Football Club a "Great british company".... And there are many british companies that aren't foreign owned, my own included. There are also many foreign companies owned by British, would you have us give these up?



Bring the rain brother, then bring the pain. Absolutely no reason why you should not be able to bear arms like we do in america. Read my signature, it says it all right there. Now go retake your damn country, and find a black market arms dealer and get your people some bloody guns, and REAL guns, not the ones you all modify from those single shot musket pistols you used in the 1600's. Get you a solid 1911 colt .45 with a laser sight.


Why do Americans always resort to the Gun argument? And an ill-informed one at that. We can own guns in the UK and even when legislation was lacking, most people went about unarmed. We've never had a gun culture in the UK and don't want one.



posted on Aug, 31 2011 @ 08:47 PM
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reply to post by EvanB
 


A mixed blessing - Dubai. Good money, but be careful of their laws. I've seen guys get sent down for drug trafficking for having a microscopic amount of weed on their shoelaces...

Good luck, anyway. Shame you had to leave...



posted on Aug, 31 2011 @ 08:58 PM
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reply to post by EvanB
 

Its' sad to see England in such a mess. they opened the doors to all this and seemingly don't wish to face it. they will either rise up and take back their nation or go down the drain. this country (USA) will/is facing the same problems, only ours isn't as close at hand.



posted on Aug, 31 2011 @ 09:07 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 




Freeborn, you know that Parties arem't recognised in Parliament!


After the results of a General Election are known The Monarch contacts the leader of the party with the most seats and asks him / her to form a government.
The leader becomes Prime Minister.

www.parliament.uk...

The general business of government is ran along party lines with government whips ensuring adherence to party line.

en.wikipedia.org...(politics)

The government Chief Whip even has an official residence in Downing Street.

Through cross party Select Committees Parliament tries to monitor the goings on in Parliament.

That pretty much suggests that regardless of official recognition, in reality Parliament not only recognises but actually endorses the party political system.

However;
"The Electoral Commission's Register of Political Parties lists the details of parties registered to fight elections, and their registered name, in the United Kingdom. Under current electoral law, including the Registration of Political Parties Act, the Electoral Administration Act 2006, and the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, only registered party names can be used on ballot papers by those wishing to fight elections. Candidates who do not belong to a registered party can use "independent" or no label at all.

As of 10 June 2011 it shows the number of registered political parties as 419. In Northern Ireland there are 42 registered parties."

en.wikipedia.org...

Seems to me like the party political system is actually becoming even further entrenched and inter-woven into the electoral process.



The "system" that promotes party allegiance is not Parliament, it is the parties themselves


And why wouldn't they when it's served them so well.
Unfortunately it doesn't serve the best interests of the electorate anywhere near as well, is outdated and unrepresentative with little accountability.



and the idots who stick to their party no matter what "because my dad and grandad voted for them"...


Yes, those sort of people are complete idiots.

As much as I'd love to discuss The Miners Strike and the Thatcher years etc I fear it would take this thread far off topic.
I'm certain my views are clouded by my personal experiences at such an impressionable age and witnessing a first hand the full effect of the devestation caused by her policies.

It's a debate I look forward to having with you in another time and place.

And for the record I'm neither left or right wing; I despise the obsession with labelling and categorising everything - I'm no wing or maybe my wing.
I try to treat every given situation or subject etc on it's own merits free from political or religious dogma and rhetoric.

edit on 31/8/11 by Freeborn because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 31 2011 @ 09:37 PM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


Ah, indeed. All those things you have mentioned are a symptom of the party system merely being followed by convention, rather than design.

Technically, under rules by parliament, Whips have no power. The only power they have is to remove you from the party. They have no power to actually remove you from Parliament.

The Monarch doesn't select the party leader with the most seats, but rather the individual who commands the most support. This, however, is usually the leader of largest party as by default they have the most support. However, there is nothing, technically, to stop a Labour backbencher being PM if he could gather enough support from other MP's, even if the Tories had the most seats...

Likewise, there is nothing stopping a Tory MP from crossing the floor to the opposition and there is no rule which would have them renounce their membership of the Conservatives if they did so. But the party itself would take a dim view of it and would likely de-select them, which would lead them to joining the other party merely to get access to the funds to contest the next election.

Technicalities, I know, but important ones. Only by convention and "this is the way things are always done" is most of our Government actually run. If Parliament actually ran according to the way it was set up, rather then the way it is operated today, it would function a lot better.

That said, there isn't anything inherantly bad about parties, as strength comes in numbers. It is far easier to fight an election with a national platform than trying to fight a whole bunch of indendant campaigns. If we held our Politicans to a higher standard and made laws to that affect, again, things would work better..

For example, in Japan if a party makes a manefesto pledge, it is legally binding. Over here, parties can promise everyone a goose that lays a golden egg and 18 year old lap-dancers to all men, without any intention of actually fulfilling the promise.



posted on Aug, 31 2011 @ 10:40 PM
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I left England for pastures new, being sick to effing death of the high price of living and having to 'read between the lines' to make ends meet or work 60 hours a week for 300 quid and still bummin smokes from my workmates by tuesday. came to Peru, got married had a kid built a life. Nobody here gets any kind of benefits, if you dont work you dont eat you dont have a roof over your head you can't clothe yourself you cant do anything you get sick you die on a street corner begging for titbits off people who really dont care either way. what i will say though, is people here dont know any different and as such make their way in life, or they die. i tell people here about free dental care, benefit system, nhs, placid and organised traffic, and whatever other blabla i can think of to sell our country, and they ask me why i left, it has no logic.

then i tell them about 18 year old kids traipsing down to the local handout centre for their free heroin substitute, dragging their 4 yr old kid by the arm whilst screaming obscenities at the little guy, groups of 14 year old kids congregating outside the local supermarket spitting at old people and blocking the door, laughing while they rob the shop in full knowledge that any copper who shows up will be a 22 year old blonde bird in a CSO outfit, powerless and intimidated. i also point out how safe it is in (pretty much) any town or city between thursday and monday after dark.


i dunno, it makes me sick to read people saying 'how the f..k am i expected to survive on 60 quid a week dole money?' and im glad im in the 3rd world, where people realise they exist on their own steam, or they perish.


good luck to all 373 'normal, decent brits' left in that sh.t.h.ole. i wish you luck. the country doesnt need a revolution, it needs repatriating by people who care a toss. I gave up.


edit on 31-8-2011 by nexusferox because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-8-2011 by nexusferox because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-8-2011 by nexusferox because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 31 2011 @ 11:10 PM
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Originally posted by nexusferox
then i tell them about 18 year old kids traipsing down to the local handout centre for their free heroin substitute, dragging their 4 yr old kid by the arm whilst screaming obscenities at the little guy, groups of 14 year old kids congregating outside the local supermarket spitting at old people and blocking the door, laughing while they rob the shop in full knowledge that any copper who shows up will be a 22 year old blonde bird in a CSO outfit, powerless and intimidated. i also point out how safe it is in (pretty much) any town or city between thursday and monday after dark.


A somewhat crass generalisation, no? You make it sound like everywhere you go, this is the scene you are greeted with..

Not once have I ever encountered "18 year old kids traipsing down to the local handout centre for their free heroin substitute". I know of the drug rehab system through friends and it actually helps them out, but it is ntohing like you're painting.

Never had gangs of kids blocking any supermarkets near me and your description of the PCSO is sexist and ageist, not to mention a total misrepresentation.


Originally posted by nexusferox
i dunno, it makes me sick to read people saying 'how the f..k am i expected to survive on 60 quid a week dole money?' and im glad im in the 3rd world, where people realise they exist on their own steam, or they perish.


Whilst I agree with the thrust of your argument here, in so far that the same comment gets me riled up, it does also annoy me that people who fled the country didn't either stay to make it better or even bother to represent the facts properly when abroad. The way you speak makes the UK sound like a total craphole, which is actually quite offensive, mate, because it isn't.


Originally posted by nexusferox
good luck to all 373 'normal, decent brits' left in that sh.t.h.ole. i wish you luck. the country doesnt need a revolution, it needs repatriating by people who care a toss. I gave up.


Exactly. You gave up, which in my book makes you much worse than those that stay and wish to try and change things, even in their local area. If we each did our bit, then everything would come together. Attitudes like yours, "Sod you, I'm alright Jack", are actually the reason why we have problems.



posted on Aug, 31 2011 @ 11:25 PM
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reply to post by nexusferox
 


Nexusferox! You disloyal slave deserter!

You should have stayed and tried to change things

Look, even some people on this thread are being paid to thread...



posted on Sep, 1 2011 @ 12:43 AM
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Yep we need a fast an furious program for the British police...jajajajaa



posted on Sep, 1 2011 @ 02:27 AM
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Originally posted by EvanB

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by EvanB
 


All I can suggest is look to move to another part of the country?

Go where the work is, that's what people have always done (Industrial revolution) but it seems lately people expect work on their doorstep. Even my own missus is like that. I have been trying to find her gainful employment for 3 years now as she is stuck at Argos on low pay, but she rejects any job I find which she could do as it involves catching two buses or two trains....

Personally, I've worked in Wales, Cornwall, London, Essex.. I know people liek the area's where they live, but you have to make a choice.


Ive had to go to another extreme and have a job in Dubai.

Its easy to say "move" but when you do not have resources to do that yoy are pretty much stuck where you are. I too have worked all over the country, the world even, but not having the means to travel and have accomadation makes you stuck in a virtua prison.

I have been fortunate by the fact that I am good at what I do, but I am still having to rely on my company to get me to my work abroad or I would not be able to do it.



Totally agree.. im actually waiting for my cousin to get back to me about a job in Abu Dhabi hopefully!!



posted on Sep, 1 2011 @ 03:30 AM
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Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by plnelson
 


Actually, one could argue that all 4 nations have a shared history going back over a millenia, rather than 4 seperate histories.

As for being distinct people, this isn't entirely true either. The Welsh and English are actually more or less the same ethnic group (The Welsh and Cornish are orignal Britons that escaped anglification after the fall of the Roman Empire - the common folk remained the same people though as only the Elites changed) and a significant amount of lowland Scots would hail from Anglo-Saxon lineages, seeing as Edinburgh was origjnally part of the Kingdom of Northumbria before the Scots nabbed it.

That said, the English are a result of all the home nations and the invaders all blending, whereas those who hail from Wales, Scotland and ireland didin't have the same degree of mongrelisation. For example, people in Yorkshire will have quite a bit of Viking ancestry, in the South and West they will be Brythionic (Welsh and Cornish - original romano-britons) and out East they will be of Germanic stock.

When all is said and done though, we are one nation and many nations at the same time. We have huge similarities and some big differences, but in the end our shared heritage and culture are greater than the constituent parts.


You do keep citing the periods in history that suit your perspective.


'In about AD 600, three hundred men gathered around their King. Mynyddog, in his stronghold of Din Eidyn. This is the first mention of the name of the place, which we call Edinburgh. The war-band was preparing to attack the Angles, recent heathen invaders from Europe. The war-band pledged themselves to die for their King and almost all did die, on a raid into the territories of the Angles, in Yorkshire. Shortly after, in AD 638, Din Eidyn was besieged and taken by the Angles and the place seems then to have received the English name which it has kept ever since - Edinburgh. '





All Burgh's are Norman - the form of government we still use is NORMAN. Our aristocracy is STILL NORMAN.

All the so called Scots/English conflicts we've been taught about were merely the Norman elites fighting among themselves.




edit on 1-9-2011 by christina-66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 1 2011 @ 03:41 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


You Americans keep banging on about the importance of your guns, but your nation is in just as much of a mess as the UK. The reason you guys will need guns though, is because your country has become so divided you need those guns to defend against each other, rather than focussing the aim on a tyrannical government.


edit on 1-9-2011 by woodwardjnr because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 1 2011 @ 03:48 AM
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reply to post by christina-66
 



All the so called Scots/English conflicts we've been taught about were merely the Norman elites fighting among themselves.


Very rare I agree with anyone on the net
but on this I do.. you have to go a long way back to see the Scotti, Picts, Saxons, Britons fighting side by side trustingly, willingly and without grudges to rid the isles of one set of elites.. I do believe the Romans called it the Great Conspiracy.

Being a conspiracy site.. and with tin foil hat firmly in place I have to wonder to myself how much of our divide has been created to ensure that we, the peoples of these Isles don't pull off another Great Conspiracy..
edit on 1/9/11 by thoughtsfull because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 1 2011 @ 04:00 AM
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Never seen a junkie with a kid under their arm going to get their meth? What country are you living in? In this area there are junkie GRANDFATHERS - with junkie kids and junkie grandchildren.


Yes - lets do talk about our direct experience of the Thatcher era - when our Mr. Lamont also told all unemployed simply to 'get on our bikes'.

All those skilled jobs went overnight - but it did the UK good right? Everything improved didn't it. Maggie saved us from ourselves. Nah. Those skilled jobs were replaced with comparatively low paid service jobs - or none at all. With massive youth unemployment and little hope for a decent future - rather than help them we gave the ecstasy. We upped the benefits system and discounted the long term unemployed by calling them incapacitated.

One in five in England works in the public sector, one in four in Scotland and one in three in Northern Ireland. then there's all those private contractors employed by the NHS etc - not really private money is it? We have 3 million officially unemployed, another 3 million 'on the sick' - and effectively are relying on about 8 million in the private sector to keep the whole thing spinning round.

One in three of Glasgow's working age pop. actually work - that's the reality. We NEVER recovered from Thatcher's years.


We made Christmas, holidays, housing and cars affordable by relaxing all legislation for the recipients of credit.

We created a property bubble that turned peoples' homes into effective piggy banks - and out-priced most from getting on the first rung. We were living through a time when it would have been cheaper to build a house buying one brick at a time from B&Q rather than paying for the chalkboard and breeze block rabbit hutches they've been charging £200k for. Who benefited from these inflated prices - only banks and other lenders.

The oil industry, the City of London, the property boom and credit cards is what's been keeping this country going. That and a massive black market that must be on a par with the actual economy. The street drugs market has kept liquid cash floating around our economy for about 15 years now - not many dealers take visa.

We are living a spin doctors sham.

During Milosovic's years in power he completely dominated their media. They were drowned in images of Yugoslav families living in their nice detached house with 2 cars in the drive - not the average citizens actual experience but they thought everyone else, somewhere else in the country WAS living like that.

Well they used the same tactics here - how about all those location, location location programmes. Dave and Samantha want a wee pad for him to work from in London - and a nice place in the country to raise the family. they have £650k to spend. They're both 28. We don't have and Dave and Samantha's round here.



posted on Sep, 1 2011 @ 04:01 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


Whether it is custom, tradition or legislation the point is that the party political system is entrenched in our electoral and parliamentary processes and procedures.

And it is this system that has produced the self-centred, self-advancing, corrupt and amoral careerist politicians who put political dogma and party line before personal conviction and the interests of the electorate and who are largely responsible one way or another for the mess we are in.

The whole system is rotten to the core and needs breaking up and rebuilding with prospective MP's issuing their own personal manifesto's etc.
MP's would be judged on their own individual performance and The Power of Recall given to the electorate.
Increased use of referendums on both local and national issues would hand more power and influence to the electorate as would devolved Regional Assemblies.
I like the idea of rolling parliaments with a third or a quarter of MP's up for re-election each year.



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