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Survey Results: Origins and Evolution

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posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 06:45 AM
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reply to post by RSF77
 


I'm not sure about that. A believer will not be put off by quotes and a non-believer wouldn't be swayed either way.




posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 10:00 AM
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Ricky Gervais summarizes it best...



This talks about Christianity...you could highlight the faults in every other scripture based religion too


Creationism is based on scripture, they are the very basis of a belief. If they're so demonstrably wrong in many cases, then shouldn't you seriously reassess the rest as well?



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 11:18 AM
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reply to post by MrXYZ
 


that's the problem. the only thing that's demonstrably wrong is the way the text is translated and the way the stories were told in church because of the way the text was translated.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 11:26 AM
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the flood of noah=flood of epic of gilgamesh=flood of atrhasis epic=black sea flood







the original text does not say EVERY living thing. it doesn't say ALL animals. it doesn't say ALL the earth.

so that comedian's critique of it, is a straw man.
edit on 3-9-2011 by undo because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 11:29 AM
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reply to post by undo
 





the original text does not say EVERY living thing. it doesn't say ALL animals. it doesn't say ALL the earth.


And yet it is mostly portrayed that way. In reality, it's just an account of a local flood, maybe the black sea one. No miracles, just logic.

Now, there's also a lot of people taking the whole Adam & Eve story literally...when it's demonstrably wrong.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by undo
 





the original text does not say EVERY living thing. it doesn't say ALL animals. it doesn't say ALL the earth.


Now, there's also a lot of people taking the whole Adam & Eve story literally...when it's demonstrably wrong.


no it isn't demonstrably wrong. it's the way the text is translated and the way it was taught in church because of the way it is translated.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 02:33 PM
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Not that I need to quote scripture (who’s, as in King James, the Catholic version, generic Christian, Jewish, etc)?. Then again I would have to look everyones version up. Not an area I spend a lot of time, that is memorizing ones interpretation of dogma. But if I can point out, if I accept the general concept, which I do, that if one follows the teaching of Christ or The Buddha, in how we treat others and not abusing ones self, that is knowing each of us has something to offer, then we would have a world with a lot less ugliness. There are many who can not separate religion from what can be demonstrated scientifically. It’s scary when questions of ones views is considered an attack on “God”. Lets at least be honest. A persons spiritual-sense-of-self, is about as intimate a thing as I can imagine. it goes to the core of our identity. Thats why when the person, thats a human being with all our flaws claims to have all the answers, a hotline to the all-mighty, Gods classified e-mail address if you will, is proven to NOT know, say when the world will end, or hates/or just says those who don’t believe their point-of-view is doomed, they are proven to be 1: mentally ill, or 2: egomaniacs, or worse 3: opportunistic bastards who prey on the gullible, ones “sense of self, can come crashing down.

When one claims to be in contact with say a higher being, and ONLY THEY can be the arbiter (no pun intended) of truth, run. Sadly, sometimes horribly tragically, some people just can’t think for themselves. If you believe in God, or something greater then “me” which I certainly do, then you can be more aware if you are open to the possibility of each persons special, never to be seen exactly the same again, potential. I have after all actually met and know people smarter, but more importantly if I was to name that special trait I would say they were closer to the divine then I am, though I must never think I can’t be better. As I speak I have a hell of a long way to go. I hope my actions (yes, I do need to keep on top of it) demonstrate what my aspirations of my better nature are. I can claim to know the mind of God. If I do I need a mental health assessment, big time. I can only speak for me but what I do, not just “preach” is in itself a tangible being. It leaves tracks, an echo. I find many who preach like to point out all the flaws of others. Big deal.

It matters, believe me. I know some who do preach, say as an occupation who have much wisdom to offer. I have met people of many faiths who’s “job” is to interpret a particular spiritual point of view, and I have sometimes been impressed, more importantly occasionally inspired. When I have been involved in research or teaching my most enjoyable moments have been to open another perspective to solve a problem, or better to inspire. As a teacher all I need do is show someone they have always had it in them to do amazing and wonderful things. When people have said after I rambled-on “I never thought of that before, or I didn’t know I could do that!” that is a great pleasure. As is solving a problem others never knew was a “problem in the first place.”

I hope we never forget the need to not create a theocracy, for those who insist it’s their God or it’s a crime, look at those nations with a religious police and you see it’s just an excuse to exploit and cause pain. I will fight those who claim such barbarism with all my might. I love my country to much to be silent. And my weapons? Lets just say Judge Judy is wrong. Words have unbridled power. They can start, stop, or prevent a war in the first place. Now that is true power. We all should be very careful of our intentions, and how use our words. They have real power.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 03:23 PM
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Originally posted by GmoS719
reply to post by SkepticOverlord
 


I figured more people would lean towards creation.
hmmm.
I'll pray for the world today.


While you're praying for the world, I'll pray for you.

I hope your deluded sense of self can be changed, provided I pray hard enough to a big bearded man hiding behind some clouds.


Originally posted by MrXYZ
Ricky Gervais summarizes it best...



This talks about Christianity...you could highlight the faults in every other scripture based religion too


Creationism is based on scripture, they are the very basis of a belief. If they're so demonstrably wrong in many cases, then shouldn't you seriously reassess the rest as well?


I think it's probably more beneficial to true believers for them to just endlessly cling to this moldy old tome until every single concept, thought and word of it has been expertly debunked by a team of specialists from the Church itself.



Religion is a crutch of the weak. Strengthen yourself inwardly and then you can become strong outwardly and you won't need to rely on your imaginary friends.
edit on 9/3/2011 by DieBravely because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 04:01 PM
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reply to post by DieBravely
 



well i'm not from a team of experts. i just study it for myself. people who agree to accept that something is in error before actually finding out if it is or not, are not really interested in finding the truth. i've done enough studying of evolution that i know it happens, at the micro level at least. but i've also done enough study of ancient history, to know it is historically accurate. some end up being metaphorical, things that were once non sentient become sentient beings, poetic, songs, theatrical dramas, symbols, but the underlying trail of historical value is still present. you just have to study enough to recognize it. if you've been told it's all nonsense, you have to make the choice whether you think it's worth your time to find out. if you don't think so, then you're missing out.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 05:32 PM
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I'm happy to see such an overwhelming majority support for science and evidence. That's one of the most important traits if you are a truth seeker. Good stuff, ATS!



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 07:11 PM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 


Adapa was a mortal from a godly lineage, a son of Ea (Enki in Sumerian), the god of wisdom and of the ancient city of Eridu, who brought the arts of civilization to that city (from Dilmun, according to some versions). He broke the wings of Ninlil the South Wind, who had overturned his fishing boat, and was called to account before Anu. Ea, his patron god, warned him to apologize humbly for his actions, but not to partake of food or drink while he was in heaven, as it would be the food of death. Anu, impressed by Adapa's sincerity, offered instead the food of immortality, but Adapa heeded Ea's advice, refused, and thus missed the chance for immortality that would have been his.

Keep in mind this story was during Kassite reign when the cult of the Giant Douche's(Enlil's)recovery. Marduk was the god of old Babylonia(ammorites) son of EA where stories favorable of EA take place.

After six generations of Gods, in the Babylonian "Enuma Elish", in the seventh generation, (Akkadian "shapattu" or sabath), the younger Igigi Gods, the sons and daughters of Enlil and Ninlil, go on strike and refuse their duties of keeping the creation working. Abzu God of fresh water, co-creator of the cosmos, threatens to destroy the world with his waters, and the Gods gather in terror. Enki promises to help and confines Abzu in irrigation canals and places him in the Kur, beneath his city of Eridu. But then, with the universe still threatened Tiamat, with the imprisonment of her husand and consort, Abzu, and at the prompting of her son and vizier Kingu, decides to take back the creation herself. The Gods gather again in terror, and turn to Enki for help, but Enki who harnessed Abzu, Tiamat's consort for irrigation refuses to get involved. The gods then seek help elsewhere and the patriarchal Enlil, their father, God of Nippur, promises to solve the problem if they make him King of the Gods. In the Babylonian tale, Enlil's role is taken by Marduk, Enki's son, and in the Assyrian version it is Asshur. After dispatching Tiamat with the "arrows of his winds" down her throat (similar in some respects to how Elohim moves "his breath (ruach) over the "face of the deep" or "Tehom", in Genesis 1:2). Reconstructing the heavens with the arch of her ribs, Enlil places her tail in the sky as the Milky Way, and her crying eyes become the source of the Tigris and Euphrates. But there is still the problem of "who will keep the cosmos working". Enki who might have otherwise come to their aid, is lying in a deep sleep, and fails to hear their cries, His mother Nammu, (creatrix also of Abzu and Tiamat), "brings the tears of the gods" before Enki and says
"Oh my son, arise from thy bed, from thy 9slumber), work what is wise,
"Fashion servants for the Gods, may they produce their (bread?).
Enki then advises that they create a servant of the Gods, humankind, out of clay and blood. This is similar to the creation of Adam in the Qu'ran where it tells how humankind was made from clay and "a clot of (menstrual?) blood". Against Enki's wish the Gods decide to slay Kingu, and Enki finally consents to use Kingu's blood to make the first human, with whom Enki always later has a close relationship, the first of the seven sages seven wise men or "Abgallu" (*Ab = water, *Gal = great, *Lu = Man), also known as Adapa. Enki assembles a team of divinities to help him, creating a host of "good and princely fashioners". He tells his mother
"Oh my mother, the creature whose name thou has uttered, it exists,
"Bind upon it the (will?) of the Gods;
"Mix the heart of clay that is over the Abyss,
"The good and princely fashioners will thicken the clay
"Thou, do thou bring the limbs into existence;
"Ninmah (the Earth-mother goddess (Ninhursag, his wife and consort) will work above thee
"(Nintu?) (goddess of birth) will stand by thy fashioning;
"Oh my mother, decree thou its (the new born's) fate.
Adapa, the first man fashioned, later goes and acts as the advisor to the King of Eridu, when in the Sumerian Kinglist, the "me" of "kingship descends on Eridu".
Samuel Noah Kramer, believes that behind this myth of Enki's confinement of Abzu lies an older one of the struggle between Enki and the Dragon Kur (the underworld)[8]

Villinization of Enki at it's best,



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 07:16 PM
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reply to post by KingJames1337
 


Dude I'm not going to read through a copy pasted myth without references to its time period, earliest edition, etc et. Just from the beginning of it It already sounds like it was influenced by something outside. After all, fishing was big outside of Persia, not inside Persia. So to be brought to god-court for tipping over a boat (I mean come on, that's more funny then it is sad) means it's probably an imported myth from the Indus or Fertile crescent. Furthermore I've no clue what it has to do with anything being discussed.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 07:17 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


Can't be. If gobekli tepe is an older version of Noah's ark, it would mean the story is older than that flood.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 07:19 PM
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reply to post by MrXYZ
 


Can't see why. Let's suspend disbelief for a moment. If 2 people ate from something called the "tree of knowledge" and lived for near 1000 years, there's a good chance that they were smart enough and lived log enough to do all sorts of things. Even flood the world or produce a whole species from just themselves.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 07:20 PM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 

Forget bout Persia I'm talking about the patterns in history and whenever one comes in power they put their story above the others and that caused Enki to be viewed as bad.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 07:30 PM
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reply to post by KingJames1337
 


I have no idea how what you said is in any way related to this god from long ago.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 07:37 PM
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edit on 3-9-2011 by KingJames1337 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 07:40 PM
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reply to post by KingJames1337
 


And what is the relationship of that to leaders coming to power equaling him being bad?



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 08:05 PM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 


This is a bit hard to explain so I apologize if I make any mistakes.

The earliest record of the Sumerian creation myth and flood myth is found on a single fragmentary tablet excavated in Nippur, sometimes called the Eridu Genesis. It is written in the Sumerian language and datable by its script to 2150 BC

This is favorable to Enki

According to Sumerian mythology, Enki also assisted humanity to survive the Deluge designed to kill them. In the later Legend of Atrahasis, Enlil, the king of the gods, sets out to eliminate humanity, whose noise is disturbing his rest. He successively sends drought, famine and plague to eliminate humanity, but Enki thwarts his half-brother's plans by teaching Atrahasis how to counter these threats. Each time, Atrahasis asks the population to abandon worship of all gods, except the one responsible for the calamity, and this seems to shame them into relenting. Humans, however, proliferate a fourth time. Enraged, Enlil convenes a Council of Deities and gets them to promise not to tell humankind that he plans their total annihilation. Enki does not tell Atrahasis directly, but speaks to him in secret via a reed wall. He instructs Atrahasis to build a boat in order to rescue his family and other living creatures from the coming deluge. After the seven day Deluge, the flood hero frees a swallow, a raven and a dove in an effort to find if the flood waters have receded. Upon landing, a sacrifice is made to the gods. Enlil is angry his will has been thwarted yet again, and Enki is named as the culprit. Enki explains that Enlil is unfair to punish the guiltless, and the gods institute measures to ensure that humanity does not become too populous in the future. This is one of the oldest of the surviving Middle Eastern Deluge myths.

So the Akkadian empire collapsed in 2154 BC Enki was probably viewed favorably but when the Kassites took power they probably implemented their view of The Giant Douche(Enlil) as being favorable and that's where the story of Adapa came into play with Enki telling Adapa(Adam) not to eat from the bread of life.

The Enûma Eliš exists in various copies from Babylon and Assyria. The version from Ashurbanipal's library dates to the 7th century BCE. The composition of the text probably dates to the Bronze Age, to the time of Hammurabi or perhaps the early Kassite era (roughly 18th to 16th centuries BCE), although some scholars favour a later date of ca. 1100 BCE.[2]

The Enuma Elis was that long story I first posted.

edit on 3-9-2011 by KingJames1337 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by undo
 





the original text does not say EVERY living thing. it doesn't say ALL animals. it doesn't say ALL the earth.


And yet it is mostly portrayed that way. In reality, it's just an account of a local flood, maybe the black sea one. No miracles, just logic.

Now, there's also a lot of people taking the whole Adam & Eve story literally...when it's demonstrably wrong.


There are a great many things in the bible which are "portrayed" by various people to various people in a way that is inconsistent with the texts - adding some things which are not there, subtracting other things which are, that sort of thing. This is why there are so many differing sects within Christianity and Judaism, not to mention the subsequent external battles. Even among "fundamentalists" there are differences of opinion that often get heated. Interpretation of Revelations is an example. There are post-millenialist, pre-millenialist, mid-mellenialist, etc. I'm a "pan-millenialist" - I think it will pan out in the end, and various opinions on it don't matter for much more than as arguing points to keep them busy.

Some "Christians" were even willing to kill other Christians over differences of doctrine unsupported by the texts, which seems to slip past non-Christians in their efforts to demonize anything and everything to do with Christianity. It wasn't just other religions and "witches" and so on who fell under the knife of the Inquisition. Spaniards slaughtered Huegenots (French Protestants) by the hundreds in Florida before Jamestowne was even a gleam in an Englishman's eye, all over doctrinal differences in interpretation used by the Spanish King to justify wrenching the territory from the French for himself.

I don't think the texts themselves are to blame for that mess, but rather the greed and lust for power that some men used misinterpretations of them in furtherance of. In other words, it's not the texts at fault, it's the simple human greed that they warn against which is to blame.



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